Britain's Anti-Semitism

[Jim]

wasp said:

Acting like facists is good enough for me mate.

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the interests of the state. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism." - Wikipedia.

Sinn Fein dont have an authoritarian political ideology, they dont have ethnic or racial policies, only cultural (which every party has), they arent statist, militaristic, totalitarian, by no means anti communist, or corporate, infact they've neither of those things above.

How can they be fascist when you have been claiming they're arsing up to North Korea and Cuba? Those two countries consider themselves communist and socialist (though NK isnt by any means in practise), why on earth would a fascist party do that?. The two idealogies clash completely, fascism was thought up in response to communism, in every way shape and form.

You dont really know enough about politics to call anyone anything.

[leeside]

blueman said:

Well the hatred of Romans for the State of Israel is there for all to see. Ratz the Natz is a shining example of their hatred for Jews. The State of Israel complained about the bigoted reporting of the Irish Journalist Orla Guerlin. Unfortunately Ireland is a bigoted and hate-filled State which is Roman to the core and Anti-Protestant, Anti-British and Anti-Jew. Until the Irish people waken up and face realities they will never move on as a Nation. They are locked in a time-warp and until they get rid of the Romanist Powers that keep them in horrible slavery they will remain trapped in their One Religion, One Culture and One Political mindset. Take a bit of advice from an 'oul Blueman and Wise Up and Grow Up and get shot of the Foreign Power which has kept your country in horrible bondage for far too long.

What an utterly clueless individual you are. The only person who consistently proves himself to be hate filled, bigoted, sectarian and bitter is you. Everywhere I see you post its the same rant no matter what the topic. The irony is that every negative trait you accuse Irish people of possessing are in fact traits that you possess in abundance. Can you not see that?? Your knowledge about the Republic of Ireland and Irish people in general is that of a caricatured loyalist who's bitterness is so intense that it has actually effected his mental state. You are so out of touch with reality its shocking. I can assure you that the only people on this island who's lives seem to be effected by the Pope and Rome are you and your kind. My advice for you would be to consider seeing a psychiatrist as you have clearly got some serious issues. You are in no condition to offer advice.

Just one question for you Blueman: have you ever felt true happiness? Im just curious

[Blue Angel]

jesus i swear you could set up a simple program to emulate Blueman quite easily - all it would have to do is respond to certain verbal or textual cues with appropriate responses like 'roman beasts, hate-filled bigots, dupes', and a few other words (not forgetting an obsession with slagging paisley that would do the most hard-core republican proud) and it would be all set to go. i am not sure it would pass the turing test but im not sure blueman's posts generally would.

[Jim]

Maybe he just needs a shag. Relieve that tension.

[Blue Angel]

oh no that's eviiiiiiiiiiiil - sex - thats only within marriage as we would know were we not god-forsaken romans.

[Jim]

And even then its only to make babies for Jesus!

[Wasp]

Jim as I said sinn fein go whatever way the wind is blowing.

Blueangel I would not say that everyone who presently votes sinn fein are facists or act like facists. IMO most of those who supported them during the troubles especially around horrific terrorist incidents are.

[Jim]

No they dont, you just think they do.

[leeside]

setanta said:

Where is bluemans post gone?

last post on page 2 of this thread.

[earl]

wasp said:

IMO Irish republicanism is anti-semetic along with many other groups throughout the world. Governments and portions of a countrys people included.

Please back this statement up with direct links highlighting where in Republican ideology, throughout the world, are there stated anti-Semetic codes of practice.

David Norris Irish Senate, 20 May 2004 - "There is one thing that we can do. There is a human rights protocol attached to the external association agreement of the European Union. Since we hold the Presidency of the EU, why do we not operate that and remove the special status awarded to Israel?"

No mention of religion. He has stated that a fellow nation should be treated as an equal. Nothing anti-semetic here. By using your own logic in associating this chap to represent a whole group for which he is a member of, it could be said that all Protestants are anti-semetic, since Senator Norris is of that religion. Not my logic. Yours.

Irish Senate, 5 July 2006.
He describes Gaza as "an open-air concentration camp". Note this is after the Israelis left! This is after all the Jews (9,000 of them) were ethnically cleansed to satisfy the Palestinian Muslim supremacists. This is after the Palestinians were free to set up their own working state. And yet somehow they are living in a "concentration camp".

The Israelis may have left Gaza, but that doesn't mean that they still don't control the area. Who controls all of Gaza's borders? Israel does. Who controls all of Gaza's waterways and ports? Israel does. Does Gaza have an international airport? No. The Israelis have closed it. Ever see the film 'Escape from New York'? That's Gaza today in essence. As to date, the Palestinians do not officially have a state, nevermind a 'working state' as you have incorrectly stated above. Again, nothing anti-semetic about this. No mention of religion.

Labhras O'Murchu of FF, Irish Senate, 20 May 2004 - "The war crimes being perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinian people will shock the world and will be seen for what they are. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has been particularly forthright in support of the rights of the Palestinian people. It is important for this nation, and for all nations, to impress on Israel that of all the nations on earth, it should be wary about engaging in activities which could be perceived as being genocidal."

So supporting the Palestinian people is anti-semetic then? So do you have to hate the Palestinians, or Arabs in general, to avoid being labeled anti-semetic? Do you have to support every one of Israels actions, right and wrong to avoid being labeled anti-semetic? I'm Pro Palestinian and pro-Israeli. I support a two state solution. I support Israels right to defend herself against terrorism as much as I defend the right of the Palestinian people to have basic human rights and a state of their own.

When you read these awful Israel-condemning debates in the Irish Senate,

None of those quotes speak out against the state of Israel or it's right to exist. They speak out specifically against Israeli millitary policy in the region against the palistinians.

remember that Ireland is a country that was neutral during the Holocaust,

Don't you mean WW2? If the war was a religious one, based around the holocaust, then why did Britain ally herself with a dictator who killed more jews that Hitler did? Stalin killed millions.

that sent condolences to Germany on the death of Hitler,

Officially, you are correct, unofficially, that was all Dev.

and that refused to allow almost any Jewish refugees in, either before, during or after the war.

I think you'll find that that could be said of most countries in Europe. The UK had the exact same policy before the war. Considering that Britan was broke and had to rebuild after the war, any immigrant was taken in as they were forms of cheap labour, so again, more neccessity than compassion. What about Britains treatment of the Jews trying to return to Palestine? They were consentrated in camps in places like Cyprus and had guards mocking them with nazi salutes. Take a google. It's all out there.

There is a long and dishonourable Irish republican tradition of hostility to Jewish national aspirations.

incorrect. The IRA were active in some cases in helping the Jewish freedom fighters fight Britain during their war for independence. Ireland was seen as a role model by many Jews and many IRA tactics were adapted to fight the British. The head of the Jewish rebels even used the pen name 'Michael Collins', and the IRA and the Jewish rebels had tried to co-ordinate a bombing campaign of London which fell through.

Sean Russell, chief of staff of the IRA during the Second World War, died on a German submarine and was buried at sea wrapped in the swastika;

Sweet jeebus WASP, last time I was here 3 months ago, old Sean was a hot topic. Please put that rotting carcas away as it's starting to smell a bit ripe. You can flog it in private!

Eamon de Valera, neutralist head of government during the Second World War, objected when the Irish Independent printed pictures of Belsen after the liberation of the camps;

In keeping with the blanket ban on any reports of the war during 'the emergancy'. Dev was a stickler for protocol. So Churchill fought the good fight during the holocaust (as you call ww2), and Dev didn't. So which one of these leaders has a forest dedicated in Israel to his name?

and Sean South, a republican hero of the 1956 border campaign, was also noted for his anti-Jewish sentiments.

OMG!! An individual in a state/organisation who harbours anti-semantic feelings! That's about as common as a Rangers supporter in Israel giving an 'Ulster salute', i.e. very common.

Significantly, the Republic of Ireland was the last country in the EU to allow Israel to establish an embassy on its soil.

If we were anti-semetic, there wouldn't be an embassy at all!

Irish politicians signed a petition calling for sanctions against Israel in 2004 or after. Did they sign similar petitions calling for sanctions against Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, the Palestinian Authority, Russia, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Zimbabwe?

One more than the British signed.

President Mary McAleese's trip to the Islamofascist state of Saudi Arabia

and U.S. bedfellow

(where the state executes gay men and women), Feb 2006, is a classic example of the uselessness of "official Ireland".
McAleese is not particularly left-wing, and neither is the government that approves her words. Yet in front of an audience representing one of the most brutal, backward, bigoted, apartheid states in the world, she chose to state that the people of Ireland "abhorred the publication" of the Muhammed cartoons. Thus siding us with the Saudi religious fanatics against the modern, tolerant Danish.

Rory Miller, Sept 6, 2006: "Among the 120 members of the Dail and the 100 members of the Senate, not one name springs to mind as a regular defender of Israel. There are either those who do not care or pro-Palestinians."

And there is alot more which shows the anti-semetic feeling by alot of people in Ireland (not all by any means) including republicans.

In all fairness, we're as anti-semetic as a nation as the next country. Although, it hasn't got a s bad as Britain where Jews have to be escorted to their places of worship by armed police. Thankfully, a person can walk to their place of worship in this country unmolested, 'cause that's how we roll!

[earl]

bearhunter said:

wasp said:

IMO Irish republicanism is anti-semetic along with many other groups throughout the world. Governments and portions of a countrys people included.

Stenata wrote 'Lately I've seen a whole load of stuff from Loyalists trying to paint Ireland as anti-Semitic.
Jews aren't under siege in Ireland. The Jewish Population is actually increasing in Ireland.'
Maybe things like this help paint that picture.

David Norris Irish Senate, 20 May 2004 - "There is one thing that we can do. There is a human rights protocol attached to the external association agreement of the European Union. Since we hold the Presidency of the EU, why do we not operate that and remove the special status awarded to Israel?"

Irish Senate, 5 July 2006.
He describes Gaza as "an open-air concentration camp". Note this is after the Israelis left! This is after all the Jews (9,000 of them) were ethnically cleansed to satisfy the Palestinian Muslim supremacists. This is after the Palestinians were free to set up their own working state. And yet somehow they are living in a "concentration camp".

Labhras O'Murchu of FF, Irish Senate, 20 May 2004 - "The war crimes being perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinian people will shock the world and will be seen for what they are. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has been particularly forthright in support of the rights of the Palestinian people. It is important for this nation, and for all nations, to impress on Israel that of all the nations on earth, it should be wary about engaging in activities which could be perceived as being genocidal."



When you read these awful Israel-condemning debates in the Irish Senate, remember that Ireland is a country that was neutral during the Holocaust, that sent condolences to Germany on the death of Hitler, and that refused to allow almost any Jewish refugees in, either before, during or after the war.

I found this article.

There is a long and dishonourable Irish republican tradition of hostility to Jewish national aspirations. This has permeated the official culture of the Irish state, as well as of contemporary paramilitary groupings.

Thus, Arthur Griffith, the founder of Sinn Fein, was blatantly anti-semitic; Sean Russell, chief of staff of the IRA during the Second World War, died on a German submarine and was buried at sea wrapped in the swastika; Eamon de Valera, neutralist head of government during the Second World War, objected when the Irish Independent printed pictures of Belsen after the liberation of the camps; and Sean South, a republican hero of the 1956 border campaign, was also noted for his anti-Jewish sentiments.

Significantly, the Republic of Ireland was the last country in the EU to allow Israel to establish an embassy on its soil.

Irish politicians signed a petition calling for sanctions against Israel in 2004 or after. Did they sign similar petitions calling for sanctions against Cambodia, China, Cuba, Egypt, Iran, Libya, North Korea, Pakistan, the Palestinian Authority, Russia, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria, Vietnam and Zimbabwe?

President Mary McAleese's trip to the Islamofascist state of Saudi Arabia (where the state executes gay men and women), Feb 2006, is a classic example of the uselessness of "official Ireland".
McAleese is not particularly left-wing, and neither is the government that approves her words. Yet in front of an audience representing one of the most brutal, backward, bigoted, apartheid states in the world, she chose to state that the people of Ireland "abhorred the publication" of the Muhammed cartoons. Thus siding us with the Saudi religious fanatics against the modern, tolerant Danish.

Rory Miller, Sept 6, 2006: "Among the 120 members of the Dail and the 100 members of the Senate, not one name springs to mind as a regular defender of Israel. There are either those who do not care or pro-Palestinians."

And there is alot more which shows the anti-semetic feeling by alot of people in Ireland (not all by any means) including republicans.

Could you tell me what site you copy-and-pasted this from please WASP? You didn't write it, I know that much.

And I couldn't agree more Republic, the atmosphere here is getting gradually more poisonous, which leads me to think that the fine sentiments of forging ahead that inspired this site have faded and everyone has gone back into their retrenched, entrenched positions. Whataboutery and MOPEry abound and frankly I'm tired of people posting stuff here that is blatantly unbalanced and provocative. If you want to start a fight, go to a fucking nightclub. I thought this site was about a more civilised exchange of ideas.

www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/07/15/dl1502.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/07/15/ixopinion.html
Daily Telegraph.

[earl]

wasp said:

Now Bh I can't give away my secrets .

TBH alot of my info is in documents that I saved when I came across them with the old copy and paste such as this below.

History Ireland VOL 13 NO. 3, May/June 2005, notes IRA statements in 1940, as the Nazis overran western Europe:

in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement [which] made clear that if "German forces should land in Ireland, they will land ... as friends and liberators of the Irish people". The public was assured that Germany desired neither "territory nor ... economic penetration" in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the "reconstruction" of a "free and progressive Europe". The Third Reich was also praised as the "energising force" of European politics and the "guardian" of national freedom. ... In August [1940] the IRA confidently predicted that with the assistance of "our victorious European allies" Ireland would "achieve absolute independence within the next few months"."

In the illegal War News, the IRA's main publication, "Satisfaction was expressed that the "cleansing fire" of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. ... War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of "so-called Jewish refugees", along with unspecified numbers of "Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars"."

So what in regards what the IRA said? They weren't speaking on behalf of the people of Ireland, they were speaking for themselves. And would you not think that this would have had more to do with international opportunisim against a 'common foe' rather than some anti-sematism genetically encoded into the Irish people that makes them automatically jump on any anti-semetic bandwagon?
The official line held by the Irish government at that time was that Ireland would stay out of the war unless attacked (same policy as the U.S., the difference being that they were attacked) and would fight off any invasion from either Germany or Britain, whom at teh time made no bones about using the threat of re-invasion as a stick.
The channel 4 program deals with the issues of Britains Jews today, not back in the 30's and 40's.

[earl]

wasp said:

Jim Have I posted anything on this thread other than fact? Have the things that I said to do with the ira not true? Are the things concerning various politicians in Ireland not true? Was the signed petition against Isreal not true?

Yes you have. You've also posted up opinion and other peoples opinions.

[earl]

wasp said:

It is not about what republicans done sixty years ago it is about what republicans do full stop.

So you have more modern examples of Republican anti-Semitic post 1945 then? Why have you not used them then?

BTW how many bombs and shootings did either of the above carry out??

I thought this thread was about anti-semitic. An issue both groups have been pulled up on. In relation to this thread and it's subject matter, this is irrelevant.

[earl]

blueman said:

Well the hatred of Romans for the State of Israel is there for all to see. Ratz the Natz is a shining example of their hatred for Jews. The State of Israel complained about the bigoted reporting of the Irish Journalist Orla Guerlin. Unfortunately Ireland is a bigoted and hate-filled State which is Roman to the core and Anti-Protestant, Anti-British and Anti-Jew. Until the Irish people waken up and face realities they will never move on as a Nation. They are locked in a time-warp and until they get rid of the Romanist Powers that keep them in horrible slavery they will remain trapped in their One Religion, One Culture and One Political mindset. Take a bit of advice from an 'oul Blueman and Wise Up and Grow Up and get shot of the Foreign Power which has kept your country in horrible bondage for far too long.

Sounds like your guilty of harbouring a little hate there yourself! As regards Ireland moving on, I think you'll find that socially and economically over the past 12 years or so, Ireland has topped most of the polls.