DUP/IRA Alliance

[Blue Angel]

if you can read basic german you will see the cartoon in the article shows the relationship between the catholic church and third reich was more ambivalent than some have imlplied here :-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion#Catholicism

[Wasp]

blueangel said:

a point about that bloke artikovic, he was in ireland for less than 12 months and then on the run again, he spent more time in both switzerland (and as setanta pointed out) california but we don't hear the swiss or americans getting hammered do we?

Well they should get flamin hammered as you put it especially the Americans. As I have said before any country than protected vermin like artikovic should give a full explanation along with an apology. While not responsible for the actions of previous governments etc, present day governments could at least acknowledge there respective country's wrong doing.

[Blue Angel]

oh certainly then the uk will be just a bad as ireland surely as it protected many nazis and kept them in positions of power after world war 2? Shall we mention Prince Philip's brothers-in-law in the SS for example?

[Blue Angel]

or maybe on a less tabloid note the gehlen organisation which was the premier spying organisation during the cold war in W.Germany and which the CIA had lots of influence over - full of ex gestapo officers.

[Wasp]

blueangel said:

oh certainly then the uk will be just a bad as ireland surely as it protected many nazis and kept them in positions of power after world war 2? Shall we mention Prince Philip's brothers-in-law in the SS for example?

This is the type of post that amuses me. While talking about Ireland's involvement no matter how small or large it was the answer is to compare with the British, ie the 'uk will be just as bad as Ireland blah blah. The previous post was about America and the Swiss which I added 'ANYcountry that protected.....etc etc'.

Yet you manage to make sure you bring in the UK, I think you are a tad sensitive about anything negative being said from a Unionist to do with Ireland. To do with the UK I have already said they and anyother countries should be ashamed of themselves for protecting/hiding nazis etc. I don't have a problem condemning Britain for anything like that, nor do I mind anyone posting on it as it does not affect me in anyway. BUT you seem to have this strong anti- British anything when anything is said about Ireland.

Perhaps trying to answer the relevant posts without trying to bring the Brits in at everychance would be more interesting and honest when giving your opinion. BTW start a thread if you wish about the British and I will without worry condemn them as I condemn anyone that colluded/protected/helped/supported the nazis etc.

[Blue Angel]

which is why i resisted the temptation to use that comparision till now. But to be honest when the historical 'anaylsis' of people like blueman/blue dog and willie frazer is so poor the temptation is overwhelming. The whole point of it was to show that all European countries said 'oh yes those awful Nazis' and then happily went on doing business with many of the same figures who had run the third reich after world war 2. I am not sensitive about anything negative been said if it is said in a measured and sensible way and not used to back up ludicrous claims of the vatican running everything in the south which seems to be the aim of the two blues brothers. The reality of world war 2 as i keep pointing out is that NO-ONE joined it with the aim of helping the jews or roma, that the death camps were closed was just a fortunate outcome. To contend otherwise is to live in a world of Commando and Warlord comics where the 'beastly hun' are overwhelmed by the 'britishers'. Complete nonsense in other words. Blueman and bluedog's analyis of the various anti-semitic forces in ireland painted everything black. It would have been like me saying Oswald Moseley represented all British thought on the Jews at that point in history.

I too condemn anyone Irish or British who had any affection for the Nazi's crude and unpleasant ideology but if you cannot accept that you cannot use nonsense such as Frazer's poorly written and researched articles to debate with them we are at something of a standstill debate wise.

The USA/UK/Spain/France etc. hid Nazis becauses they were useful in the cold war and pragamtism as I have said before decides policy ultimately not morality. Goverments do not care a damn for morality whether they be British, Irish or whatever other country you wish to name. They will do whatever they wish unless the public protest.

The aim of all the anti-semitic mud-flinging is to try ultimately to present Ireland as some nazi state by proxy. The reality of othe matter is the Irish were neither particularly pro-German nor pro-British but pro-Irish. I do not love Dev but his answer about who he would fight if invaded was useful, 'whoever comes first'. Not that in real terms we would have lasted more than five minutes but it sums up the situation well.

You could not realistically expect a state which had been founded on a guerilla war with britain only 18 years or so previous to WW2 to remain stable if it had involved itself on the british side either a point unionists often overlook.

[Wasp]

Blueangel it was me that was posting recent posts not bluedog or blueman, it was me. I know governments look at the bigger picture when it comes to intelligence or security so they have perhaps some good reasons for using ex-nazis.

That however does not change the fact that anycountry who helped these scum should be ashamed of themselves, especially when anyone they are hiding has no benefit to them as far as security or intelligence goes. Many were protected IMO that were of little or no use and this makes the whole thing even more sickening.

Your agreement or disagreement with Willie is nothing to me, you put frorward your side of the arguement and you do so effectively most of the time from your own viewpoint. But that doesn't make others who differ with you completely wrong. As I have stated many times Russell is a point in history that I have commented on amongst others and as a Unionist I do find the republican arguement for certain things laughable if not so sad when I think on things like Russell etc.

[Blue Angel]

russell i am quite prepared to concede (and have done so before) was an idiot and something of a bigoted idiot to from what i know about the man. I certainly would not be attending any commerations for him, people like Connolly or others who actively spoke out against anti-semitisim* long before ww2 are more my cup of tea and russell is no hero of mine.

*one of connolly's arguments aganinst britain joining in world war one was that it would be fighting on the side of russia, whose govt. was notorious for anti-semitic actions at that point.

[An Fear Dubh]

I do not think that the Vatican's position during WW2 can be excused. But I do acknowledge that other governments with as much knowledge and maybe more influence also held similar or more entrenched positions.

Few ordinary Catholics in Ireland have little knowledge or pay heed about in the internal politics of the Vatican. The only reason most give the nod in that direction is because this is where the Pope is. But is more a symbolic gesture than a close deep understanding. They care little for the whims and politics that come from the Vatican (or as the 'Blues brothers say - Rome). The idea that Irish nationalists or even a step further Republican give a toss about the Vatican is just ludicrous. But I am happy to let fools have a false analysis of their opponents it leads to poor strategy. those that want to find common cause and work together will quickly adjust their poor analysis those that are only interested in stirring and throwing abuse will close their ears and eyes to the facts.

It is easy for Wasp to adopt this 'high moral ground' as he holds no views himself. He is a Unionist but supports no Unionist party. He is a Loyalist but supports no strand of Loyalism. He pushes the views of the Orange Order but when pressed reverts to the fact that he is not a member of the Orange Order. Numerous Protestant churches held similar positions to the Vatican during WW2, but that seems to be no reflection on Wasp. I am not certain about the others but I am fairly confident that neither myself, Setanta or Blue Angel have much time for any religion. But we are from a Catholic background, and therefore under the bigoted views of some we are under the influence of Rome!!

It is obviously false that we are influenced by Rome. But we can use the facts to show that things are not black and white but various shades of grey and that no Church (governing bodies), Government, or Nationality held a position that was totally faultless. Nor can one be singled out alone or above another, to do so is to do so out of political context and to present a false picture. That is what Wasp is attempting to do.

[Wasp]

First of all I have adopted no moral highground, secondly if you mean the uvf/uda/lvf as strands of loyalism then one does not need to support any of them to be a loyalist. On Unionist parties I will wait and see what develops before deciding who to vote for. As things stand the dup will not even be considered.

You say I push the views of the OO? When no-one was willing to try to give their side of the arguement, I did so and I do not see that as pushing there views. On the various Protestant churchs supporting the nazis then that has absolutely no reflection on me. These churchs are not the heads of the Protestant church, nor do they dictate doctrine, nor do they threaten to excommunicate me if I defy them. The vatican is the head of the Catholic church throughout the world, well mainstream Catholics anyway. Big big difference. BTW if my church or the church that I belonged to aided the nazis in anyway then I WOULD CONDEMN THAT in the exact same way without making excuses or a difference.

Setanta please don't try and put words into my mouth by saying "Are you suggesting that most Catholics supported the Nazis again?". This is simply lies and twisting of what I said. Nowhere did I say most Catholics supported the nazis, I suppose I said or suggested only Protestants fought in WW2 as well???

[Wasp]

To do with the excommunication part.

On October 11, 1946, after a ten days' hearing, the Court—composed, it should be remembered, of Catholics—sentenced Archbishop Stepinac to sixteen years imprisonment. Pope Pius Xll ordered the excommunication of all those who had taken part in the trial, from Tito himself down to the last official connected in any way with Stepinac's indictment. All received a solemn Catholic guarantee of eternal damnation in genuine Catholic brimstone and inextinguishable infernal fire. The thing was made even more fearsome by a papal afterthought, which promised the personal attention of Lucifer himself on all those so excommunicated.

[Blue Angel]

indeed i have little time for organised religion but also little time for the implication that anyone who follows a particular religion is brainwashed or controlled by some machiavellian organisation. This is reality and not the da vinci code and the majority of catholics are not puppets of the vatican. Unfortunately the blues brothers mental paradigm of a typical catholic seems to be one that says, 'how high?' when the vatican tells him to jump. I no longer view myself as catholic but such representation is dangerously foolish and is indeed bigotry.

The blues brothers show little or no understanding of the ambivalance atitutdes the church has always held towards nationalist and even more so republicans and so betray their crude bigotry in every post sadly.

[blueman]

blueangel said:

indeed i have little time for organised religion but also little time for the implication that anyone who follows a particular religion is brainwashed or controlled by some machiavellian organisation. This is reality and not the da vinci code and the majority of catholics are not puppets of the vatican. Unfortunately the blues brothers mental paradigm of a typical catholic seems to be one that says, 'how high?' when the vatican tells him to jump. I no longer view myself as catholic but such representation is dangerously foolish and is indeed bigotry.

The blues brothers show little or no understanding of the ambivalance atitutdes the church has always held towards nationalist and even more so republicans and so betray their crude bigotry in every post sadly.

Fair enough BA, we are probably crude and bigoted in our generalisation of Irish Roman Catholics and I am sure there are many, many ordinary Irish people who wish the people of Ulster no harm. In fact I will go a step further and say that they would probably be the best neighbours anyone could have. To those people I have no issues with, at all.

However, our main gripe is with your seeming inability to accept some blame for the part you have played in this conflict which has went on for far too long. No one side is blameless in this mess but the Irish Republican mentality doesn't want to accept that some of the problems are their fault. It takes a brave and courageous man to stand up and say I was wrong and while we in the Black North have no difficulty in admitting to our wrong doings you seem more than 'reluctant' to come over to no man's land and say the same.

The DUP/IRA Alliance is in my opinion a sham but if Sinn Fein/IRA are genuine in their efforts to promote peace then I will be the first to admit I was wrong in my assessment but I will still be suspicious of Paisley and who or what controls him.

[Wasp]

The DUP/IRA Alliance is in my opinion a sham but if Sinn Fein/IRA are genuine in their efforts to promote peace then I will be the first to admit I was wrong in my assessment but I will still be suspicious of Paisley and who or what controls him.

I don't think you will have too many worries about being wrong in your assessment going by there words and actions now.

[Wasp]

On your first point the only relfection is upon those who did likewise.

On your second point being of the same faith is inaacurate. Some may call theselves Protestants but they have different beliefs from others. Who said I would be accountable or rather who said Catholics are accountable anywhere in the world because of the vatican???

I was Presbyterian but now I am simply a follower of Christ before any denomination.