DUP/IRA Alliance

[blueman]

Like many others from the Unionist Community I am utterly amazed at the New Alliance formed between the DUP and Sinn Fein/IRA. It is breathtaking to watch Paisley and the self confessed leader of PIRA unite and become bosom buddies in such a short space of time. After all the bluster about facing down the Provos that Paisley has spouted for all these years it is hard to take it in as he snuggles up to Marty and his new found friends in such an open manner.

It would now appear that Paisley and his party were not being truthful as they led the Ulster people from one political disaster to another from the late 1960's on. When the UUP tried to bring ordinary RC's into Government Paisley and his crew accused successive Unionist Leaders of a sell out. Now that the insidious Doctor has skilfully manouvered his way to the top he now shows his true colours and it would appear that they are a definate shade of green.

As he cosy's up to Marty, Gerry and Bertie it would appear that both Power and Money have gone to his head and I think the Ulster Electorate are in a state of shock. It would appear that the man who claims he never lies has been feeding us big, big porkies for all these years. The most worrying thing is that his rise to Power has basically gone unchallenged with only a few Dissenting voices being raised in objection. Jim Allister is one along with Councillour Stirling in Ballymena who only last week called him the 'Great Betrayer'. There was also an interesting letter from a woman on the FAIR site who had protested outside a Gospel meeting conducted by Paisley at the Diamond a few weeks ago. She was shocked at the level of venom and hatred from Paisley's followers directed at the Victims and even alledged that a 88 year old man was assaulted by them.

So it would appear that as Paisley snuggles up to the murderers and abusers of our people that at least a few are beginning to waken up and smell the coffee and ask Paisley what exactly have been the last 40 years of terror and suffering been for, to get you to the position of Power and Preeminance that you have always craved?

[An Fear Dubh]

I can understand the amazement in the Unionist Community, at the new direction of the leadership being given by the DUP and Ian Paisley in particular. Yes, Paisley led you and the rest of the Unionist Community up the hill. And blindly you followed believing all the lies of sell out. But are we to believe that those like Jim Allister, Councilor Stirling and Bob McCartney are telling the truth? And if put in the same position how can anyone know if they too would not make the same choices as Paisley? Paisley now snuggles up to Republicans in power and he goaded, and advised many a Loyalist paramilitary to commit murder and abuse and terrorize people in the name of God and Ulster. So Paisley and Marty are leaders with equal responsibility and equal onus for the past and the future.

The fact that little challenge exists to Paisley's leadership is interesting. And the fact that the Unionist Community on the whole blindly followed his and UUP leadership without proper analysis except the lying analysis of Paisley, perhaps points to the reason why no opposition exists today.

Such a sharp learning curve at such a crucial time of development, seems too little too late.

Elsewhere 'Blueman' you talked of true Republicanism being a force for change for the good of all. Maybe there is hope yet that Republicanism can still be that force for change and that the Unionist Community should look to form class alliances with those that have been able to provide their own analysis.

[Harry]

Good to see you around Blueman

Whats happened i think was inevitable. In the interests of peace and trying to ensure future generations have a better way of life, we were always going to end up with mainstream Unionism working alongside Reublicanism. I too don't like it one bit that men who waged war and murdered and maimed are now running our country, Terrorists now turned to so called Country leaders, it is enough to make the ordinary law abiding man or woman question the sanity of humanity. A man that has preached nothing but hate for the other side is now the Top Dog, a man who encouraged violence and who had a major influence in sending men to early graves or seeing that young men spent most of their life behind bars is now sitting cushy with all this power!!! How can it be fair???

Paisley manipulated Loyalists, he used us to add muscle to his venom tongue. He led us to war but wasn't prepared to stick by the very same men when things got tricky. He'd disown them in an instance and label them criminals,thugs etc......when Paisley made his thunderous speeches and played on all our fears of how we were staring into the abyss, when he talked about fighting the enemy head on, when he claimed i'll take responsibility for the actions of these men.......what was he actually thinking??? Was he so naive that he didn't think violence would be used or was he so vindictive that he only cared about his self importance and it didn't matter what chaos he caused or who he trampled on to get there!!!

Paisley will reap what he has sown someday, like all the others. The DUP don't represent me and haven't for a very long time. But new emerging leaders are sparce and to some people its better the devil you know. If this process really works and the DUP can no longer manipulate fears to gain votes then maybe people will wake up and see how badly we have been led for decades.

I support the current process, regardless of my feelings for Paisley and the DUP, i wish to see it work. Dissenters within Unionism who want SF banished etc have nothing to other either, they have a massive mandate and we must recognise that and work with them. However hard it is to swallow, i'm sure alot of stuff for them is equally as testing on the throat. New dynamic thinking is needed from the working class Loyalist people, we must learn to represent ourselves and starve those only interested in themselves of the attention they crave.

[blueman]

anfeardubh said:

I can understand the amazement in the Unionist Community, at the new direction of the leadership being given by the DUP and Ian Paisley in particular. Yes, Paisley led you and the rest of the Unionist Community up the hill. And blindly you followed believing all the lies of sell out. But are we to believe that those like Jim Allister, Councilor Stirling and Bob McCartney are telling the truth? And if put in the same position how can anyone know if they too would not make the same choices as Paisley? Paisley now snuggles up to Republicans in power and he goaded, and advised many a Loyalist paramilitary to commit murder and abuse and terrorize people in the name of God and Ulster. So Paisley and Marty are leaders with equal responsibility and equal onus for the past and the future.

The fact that little challenge exists to Paisley's leadership is interesting. And the fact that the Unionist Community on the whole blindly followed his and UUP leadership without proper analysis except the lying analysis of Paisley, perhaps points to the reason why no opposition exists today.

Such a sharp learning curve at such a crucial time of development, seems too little too late.

Elsewhere 'Blueman' you talked of true Republicanism being a force for change for the good of all. Maybe there is hope yet that Republicanism can still be that force for change and that the Unionist Community should look to form class alliances with those that have been able to provide their own analysis.

Good post, but it is never too late to learn. I saw through Paisley and his clique a long time ago and I am not in the least suprised by the U-Turns and somersaults that the DUPERS are doing. I am also well aware that Ulster Protestants are not the 'brightest' politically and are indeed 'slow learners'. Unfortunately in Ulster all you have to do is put a 'dog collar' around your neck and pretend to be a 'Reverend Doctor' and the masses will follow you no matter where you lead them. He is a man who has in my opinion like his UUP predecessors always acted out of self-interest no matter what the consequences that his words and actions had upon the lives of others. I suppose that is why the likes of him and his DUPERS are very wealthy men and women while the working classes are living in deprivation and poverty.

[blueman]

harry said:

Good to see you around Blueman

Whats happened i think was inevitable. In the interests of peace and trying to ensure future generations have a better way of life, we were always going to end up with mainstream Unionism working alongside Reublicanism. I too don't like it one bit that men who waged war and murdered and maimed are now running our country, Terrorists now turned to so called Country leaders, it is enough to make the ordinary law abiding man or woman question the sanity of humanity. A man that has preached nothing but hate for the other side is now the Top Dog, a man who encouraged violence and who had a major influence in sending men to early graves or seeing that young men spent most of their life behind bars is now sitting cushy with all this power!!! How can it be fair???

Paisley manipulated Loyalists, he used us to add muscle to his venom tongue. He led us to war but wasn't prepared to stick by the very same men when things got tricky. He'd disown them in an instance and label them criminals,thugs etc......when Paisley made his thunderous speeches and played on all our fears of how we were staring into the abyss, when he talked about fighting the enemy head on, when he claimed i'll take responsibility for the actions of these men.......what was he actually thinking??? Was he so naive that he didn't think violence would be used or was he so vindictive that he only cared about his self importance and it didn't matter what chaos he caused or who he trampled on to get there!!!

Paisley will reap what he has sown someday, like all the others. The DUP don't represent me and haven't for a very long time. But new emerging leaders are sparce and to some people its better the devil you know. If this process really works and the DUP can no longer manipulate fears to gain votes then maybe people will wake up and see how badly we have been led for decades.

I support the current process, regardless of my feelings for Paisley and the DUP, i wish to see it work. Dissenters within Unionism who want SF banished etc have nothing to other either, they have a massive mandate and we must recognise that and work with them. However hard it is to swallow, i'm sure alot of stuff for them is equally as testing on the throat. New dynamic thinking is needed from the working class Loyalist people, we must learn to represent ourselves and starve those only interested in themselves of the attention they crave.

Excellent post Harry, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. It turns my stomach to see the DUPERS bask in their hour of glory but at the end of the day at least we are currently enjoying some peace in our troubled land. In saying that however we as Protestants must use this oppurtunity for reflection and try to analise how we have been led by the nose by hypocrites such as Paisley and ensure that it does not happen again. The suffering that the ordinary people endured was unbelievable as the DUPERS led us from one political disaster to another. The Useless Unionist Party was really not much better but unlike the DUPERS they did not pour oil on the fire and to be fair, if they would have been left alone, the country might have been stabilised and the thing sorted out years ago.

I also agree that the Dissenters like Allister, Stirling and McCartney have little to offer the ordinary working class people and we must deal with the situation we are currently in. Sinn Fein/IRA have a massive mandate and like it or not are entitled to representaion but I do not see where proper representation for our people is coming from. One things for sure Paisley can't live forever and I for one look forward to the day when the big bluffer is brought tumbling down. I suspect that he is at the height of his power and the only way from here on in is down, down, down .............

[Jim]

The dislike of the parties in government is not exclusive to the unionist community. nationalists arent over the moon about having a party that called them (insert any aiden-ish insult here) amonst other things and its also understandable why many unionists dont like SF in government.

Whether or not we like the parties in government, it is important they are supported because honestly there is no other choice. The UUP and the SDLP havent a clue and middle of the road parties are useless, the only parties fit to govern this place are SF and the DUP, the two opposite ends. Its a lot more democratic than westminster!

[Harry]

blueman said:

harry said:

Good to see you around Blueman

Whats happened i think was inevitable. In the interests of peace and trying to ensure future generations have a better way of life, we were always going to end up with mainstream Unionism working alongside Reublicanism. I too don't like it one bit that men who waged war and murdered and maimed are now running our country, Terrorists now turned to so called Country leaders, it is enough to make the ordinary law abiding man or woman question the sanity of humanity. A man that has preached nothing but hate for the other side is now the Top Dog, a man who encouraged violence and who had a major influence in sending men to early graves or seeing that young men spent most of their life behind bars is now sitting cushy with all this power!!! How can it be fair???

Paisley manipulated Loyalists, he used us to add muscle to his venom tongue. He led us to war but wasn't prepared to stick by the very same men when things got tricky. He'd disown them in an instance and label them criminals,thugs etc......when Paisley made his thunderous speeches and played on all our fears of how we were staring into the abyss, when he talked about fighting the enemy head on, when he claimed i'll take responsibility for the actions of these men.......what was he actually thinking??? Was he so naive that he didn't think violence would be used or was he so vindictive that he only cared about his self importance and it didn't matter what chaos he caused or who he trampled on to get there!!!

Paisley will reap what he has sown someday, like all the others. The DUP don't represent me and haven't for a very long time. But new emerging leaders are sparce and to some people its better the devil you know. If this process really works and the DUP can no longer manipulate fears to gain votes then maybe people will wake up and see how badly we have been led for decades.

I support the current process, regardless of my feelings for Paisley and the DUP, i wish to see it work. Dissenters within Unionism who want SF banished etc have nothing to other either, they have a massive mandate and we must recognise that and work with them. However hard it is to swallow, i'm sure alot of stuff for them is equally as testing on the throat. New dynamic thinking is needed from the working class Loyalist people, we must learn to represent ourselves and starve those only interested in themselves of the attention they crave.

Excellent post Harry, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. It turns my stomach to see the DUPERS bask in their hour of glory but at the end of the day at least we are currently enjoying some peace in our troubled land. In saying that however we as Protestants must use this oppurtunity for reflection and try to analise how we have been led by the nose by hypocrites such as Paisley and ensure that it does not happen again. The suffering that the ordinary people endured was unbelievable as the DUPERS led us from one political disaster to another. The Useless Unionist Party was really not much better but unlike the DUPERS they did not pour oil on the fire and to be fair, if they would have been left alone, the country might have been stabilised and the thing sorted out years ago.

I also agree that the Dissenters like Allister, Stirling and McCartney have little to offer the ordinary working class people and we must deal with the situation we are currently in. Sinn Fein/IRA have a massive mandate and like it or not are entitled to representaion but I do not see where proper representation for our people is coming from. One things for sure Paisley can't live forever and I for one look forward to the day when the big bluffer is brought tumbling down. I suspect that he is at the height of his power and the only way from here on in is down, down, down .............

So where do we go Blueman?? I've been asking myself this for ages and would be nice to hear another Loyalist perspective on it. This is my view..........The Loyalist community aren't represented at all in my eyes. Mainstream Unionist parties are usually out of touch with the feelings on the streets and as such opportunities are missed and tensions allowed to boil until eventually violence is deemed to be the only way to express ourselves. Sporadic expolsions of violence within Loyalist communities usually represent an under current of discontent and fear and altough its no excuse for violence its the only we feel that we can be heard. This is a direct result of poor leadership, this only further hinders my community and alienates us further from the outside world. Random street violence usually hurts those that live within our own communities, we wreck our own streets, burn out each others cars and scare off any hope of potential economic investment within our areas.

Good leaders should come directly from within these areas. They should be constantly involved in communications with local people, constantly listening to concerns and providing people with the means to raise these fears at a level where important people listen. More community schemes, more encouragement of young working class loyalists to forge a career within politics. A realisation of what proper representaion actually means.....not just a quick visit to your door a few weeks before election and then never seen again until the next election times We need to dismantle the machine of fear that Paramilataries hold over our community. To many ceasefire warriors who use 3 letters as a means to terrorise our own people, they should be ashamed of themselves and should be treated as the thugs and criminals they are. We had 30 years of terror at the hands of republicans, we don't need another 30 years at the hands of so called Loyalists.

Rid oursleves of the influence of the various loyalist groupings and then we give ourselves the true potential to flourish. True debates can take place within working class Loyalism and people will be able to speak out freely without fear of attack. Then those with the real ability to lead will come to the fore and community leaders won't be only those sporting paramilatary muscle. The UVF, UDA etc served a purpose, altough some here won't agree, they defended my community and returned the serve. Nows the time to leave that chapter and let in be in the past, those seeking to carry it on with the sole intention of self importance should be treated with contempt and as an enemy of Loyalism.

We need to explore what the new power sharing has to offer. We must embrace it and make it work for the good of all the people of N.Ireland. We must fight SF's aim of a United Ireland by highlighting the postive aspects of our Union, we must move out of the shadows and be proud of what we believe in, no more just stating what we are against but make it more transparent of what we are for. Lets examine our own culture, what can we do better, what can we do to make things more inclusive. Are bonfires the best way of of bringing in the 12th?? Are filthy parks littered with tyres and pallets and household rubbish the best way of celebrating?? Are we brave enough to try something new, something which can show us as forward thinking, just because we've always done it doesn't mean we can never change it without it being seen as some sort of surrender. We can change things ourselves because WE want to. I love the bonfires and i love the atmosphere of the fire and the bands playing but its now our challenge to create this same atmosphere without turning our ares into a dumping ground and polluting our enviornment.

Rid our band parades of the blue bag brigades. Those who just simply use it as an excuse to get drunk and then abuse all the family people who are enjoying the parades. I like to get drunk but i try and conduct myself in a manner which wouldn't put anyone off coming to another parade and my alcohol is usually consumed within the grounds of an ale house. We have a wealth of musical talent within our community, some of our marching bands are world class and should be exported onto the world stage. Our tradition and heritage, the sheer numbers who take the streets over the 12th must make it an event able to challenge most other world events. Channel the good things about our culture in the right ways while trying to eliminate the less desireable and we will be onto a winner.


Jeekers!!! I'll stop now.........got well carried away there ;D ;D ;D

[blueman]

setanta said:

blueman, Harry, bilk, WASP and any other Unionist I know of from these boards, you guys aren't happy with any Unionist Parties. So why have they routed their Unionist Opponents? Who is the alternative and what are YOU going to do about it?

Unfortunately the DUPERS have successfully deceived the Ulster Electorate into wrecking all the other Unionist parties and leaving them in total control. The Ulster people are gullible when it comes to religion and Paisley knows that only too well. Both Paisley and McCrea have fed off the fears of Ulster Protestants for years, as they condemned the UUP for weakness and the PUP as Paramilitaries, putting themselves forward as the only hope for the salvation of Ulster. They both gave themselves grand titles like 'Reverend Doctor' and that was the method that brought them success especially in the country areas. The Provos also gave them the ammunition they needed and they skillfully manipulated the whole situation for their own greedy and selfish ends.

I personally believe Paisley is a dictator and if he gets his way Ulster will be run just like his church and party. While they pretend outwardly to be democratic the reality is that what Paisley says goes and any dissent will be ruthlessly crushed. He is a cunning and devious man and must not be underestimated in the least. Make no mistake Paisley is no fool and I know that McCrea is a most sinister man indeed. A perfect example is the Loyalist Forums which they have infiltrated and which they totally control. Any voice of dissent is banned or hounded off. Even the Ulster Scots site is under their control with them spouting the DUPERS party line. These people are control freaks of the highest order and their Fundamentalist religion if left unchecked is every bit as bad as the Taliban.

To answer your question about what we can do about it I honestly don't know. If these people are allowed to continue unopposed we are in for a bleak future. The UUP is finished and I can't see where the opposition is coming from. A few working class fellows like WASP, Harry and myself are not going to make a difference. All we can do in the meantime is try to highlight these pretenders and expose them for the hypocrites they really are. Hopefully some day the Ulster people will waken up and get them off our backs for once and all.

[blueman]

harry said:

blueman said:

Excellent post Harry, I couldn't have summed it up better myself. It turns my stomach to see the DUPERS bask in their hour of glory but at the end of the day at least we are currently enjoying some peace in our troubled land. In saying that however we as Protestants must use this oppurtunity for reflection and try to analise how we have been led by the nose by hypocrites such as Paisley and ensure that it does not happen again. The suffering that the ordinary people endured was unbelievable as the DUPERS led us from one political disaster to another. The Useless Unionist Party was really not much better but unlike the DUPERS they did not pour oil on the fire and to be fair, if they would have been left alone, the country might have been stabilised and the thing sorted out years ago.

I also agree that the Dissenters like Allister, Stirling and McCartney have little to offer the ordinary working class people and we must deal with the situation we are currently in. Sinn Fein/IRA have a massive mandate and like it or not are entitled to representaion but I do not see where proper representation for our people is coming from. One things for sure Paisley can't live forever and I for one look forward to the day when the big bluffer is brought tumbling down. I suspect that he is at the height of his power and the only way from here on in is down, down, down .............

So where do we go Blueman?? I've been asking myself this for ages and would be nice to hear another Loyalist perspective on it. This is my view..........The Loyalist community aren't represented at all in my eyes. Mainstream Unionist parties are usually out of touch with the feelings on the streets and as such opportunities are missed and tensions allowed to boil until eventually violence is deemed to be the only way to express ourselves. Sporadic expolsions of violence within Loyalist communities usually represent an under current of discontent and fear and altough its no excuse for violence its the only we feel that we can be heard. This is a direct result of poor leadership, this only further hinders my community and alienates us further from the outside world. Random street violence usually hurts those that live within our own communities, we wreck our own streets, burn out each others cars and scare off any hope of potential economic investment within our areas.

Good leaders should come directly from within these areas. They should be constantly involved in communications with local people, constantly listening to concerns and providing people with the means to raise these fears at a level where important people listen. More community schemes, more encouragement of young working class loyalists to forge a career within politics. A realisation of what proper representaion actually means.....not just a quick visit to your door a few weeks before election and then never seen again until the next election times We need to dismantle the machine of fear that Paramilataries hold over our community. To many ceasefire warriors who use 3 letters as a means to terrorise our own people, they should be ashamed of themselves and should be treated as the thugs and criminals they are. We had 30 years of terror at the hands of republicans, we don't need another 30 years at the hands of so called Loyalists.

Rid oursleves of the influence of the various loyalist groupings and then we give ourselves the true potential to flourish. True debates can take place within working class Loyalism and people will be able to speak out freely without fear of attack. Then those with the real ability to lead will come to the fore and community leaders won't be only those sporting paramilatary muscle. The UVF, UDA etc served a purpose, altough some here won't agree, they defended my community and returned the serve. Nows the time to leave that chapter and let in be in the past, those seeking to carry it on with the sole intention of self importance should be treated with contempt and as an enemy of Loyalism.

We need to explore what the new power sharing has to offer. We must embrace it and make it work for the good of all the people of N.Ireland. We must fight SF's aim of a United Ireland by highlighting the postive aspects of our Union, we must move out of the shadows and be proud of what we believe in, no more just stating what we are against but make it more transparent of what we are for. Lets examine our own culture, what can we do better, what can we do to make things more inclusive. Are bonfires the best way of of bringing in the 12th?? Are filthy parks littered with tyres and pallets and household rubbish the best way of celebrating?? Are we brave enough to try something new, something which can show us as forward thinking, just because we've always done it doesn't mean we can never change it without it being seen as some sort of surrender. We can change things ourselves because WE want to. I love the bonfires and i love the atmosphere of the fire and the bands playing but its now our challenge to create this same atmosphere without turning our ares into a dumping ground and polluting our enviornment.

Rid our band parades of the blue bag brigades. Those who just simply use it as an excuse to get drunk and then abuse all the family people who are enjoying the parades. I like to get drunk but i try and conduct myself in a manner which wouldn't put anyone off coming to another parade and my alcohol is usually consumed within the grounds of an ale house. We have a wealth of musical talent within our community, some of our marching bands are world class and should be exported onto the world stage. Our tradition and heritage, the sheer numbers who take the streets over the 12th must make it an event able to challenge most other world events. Channel the good things about our culture in the right ways while trying to eliminate the less desireable and we will be onto a winner.


Jeekers!!! I'll stop now.........got well carried away there ;D ;D ;D

Harry, I have asked myself the same question time and time again and I really do not know. We must look at our past and analise the horrendous suffering that both sides have endured. Our country has come through 35 years of a nightmare and the suffering endured by the working classes on both sides was unbelievable. We as Protestants must look at what part we had to play and how we were used by sinister men in our community who constantly stirred up the tensions and kept both sides at each others throats while they lay back playing religion and creaming it in. While our people were being murdered, mutilated and imprisoned these fat cats were getting fatter and laughing all the way to the bank at our expense. We must ensure this never ever happens again.

Political violence is the road to nowhere and the old adage is true that violence only leads to violence. Political debate and discussion is the only way forward. We must examine our own culture as well as the beliefs and cultures of those who differ from us. On reflection sectarianism was rife in our society and ordinary Roman Catholics were discriminated against in Ulster because of their religion which is totally wrong. I have talked to many elderly Protestants who told me that before the troubles RC's were treated terribly. The other side of the coin is that Protestants were discriminated against in Ireland but two wrongs don't make a right. We should have been bigger than that and RC's should have been treated as equals in Ulster in every aspect of life. Just because we differ vehemently on religion doesn't mean we can't be friends and work or socialise together.

The Loyalist paramilitaries were almost exclusively made up from the working classes and were used by others who were cute enough to wind them up to further their own ends. If the ongoing political stability continues I feel they should cease to exist and take a long, hard look at themselves to ensure they will never be misused again. We desperately need working class people to start thinking for themselves and never to be lead by the noses by devious politicians again. The problem with our people is that they don't think and are an easy target for cute and cunning conmen. We need to get the focus onto proper issues like housing, healthcare, day to day welfare etc,etc. I can't honestly see where proper political representation for working class Protestants is coming from and like them or loathe them Sinn Fein/IRA are streets ahead of us.

The power sharing at the minute is giving the country a bit of stability but it turns my stomach to see the Taliban sitting with their pretensious false faces smirking and yet again raking it in but I think you are right and their day is indeed coming. If Republicans are indeed genuine and are prepared to work for their people within Stormont then we must work with them for the good of all our people. It is interesting to note the recent upsurge in Republican violence which shows that all is not well in their camp. That is a worrying trend in itself.

Our culture is not inclusive enough and I think we need to try and encourage others of a different religious or ethnic background to participate. The Orange Order makes this impossible but the Loyalist bands should in my opinion be open to all irrespective of religion or creed. All Ulstermen and women should be welcome to embrace our culture. The Northern Ireland team is a perfect example of how this could work and our fellow countrymen and countrywomen who have much more in common with us than they have with the Southern Irish could unite and become a potent force for good. Linfield have proved that this is the only way forward and to see fellows from both traditions try their guts out for each other is unbelievable to say the least. The twelth should become of a celebration or a festival for all instead of a show parade just for those from the Protestant tradition.

Sectarianism and discrimination must be consigned to the dustbin of history but Pope Benny's latest outburst certainly won't help matters as no doubt bigots on the RC side will use his words as an excuse to attack more Orange Halls and Protestant church buildings.

[An Fear Dubh]

Some very insightful posts from Harry and Blueman, and a bit depressing I suppose. Both seem to be looking into a very black deep hole. The thing about political development is that the future is always difficult to predict. But you have both outlined some things that need to be done. And I have to agree with Setanta here, you are both candidates for a quick boot up the arse. Yes, the task is daunting, do you think that many Republicans have not despaired! And many have fallen under the pressure, but those with a clear vision can take the strain and continue on.

To be honest I was never really interested in the lack of Unionist political strength, as they were the opposition. I would not write off the UUP just yet, I sort of look at the UUP and the DUP like the battle between feudalism [land] and capitalism [industry]. Land still has a power base in society today, and while not the driving force of an economy, still a powerful force. The big issue for the DUP will be the death of Paisley, and that should be the point that political Loyalists build towards and to be ready to take advantage of the vacuum created by it.

Republicans recognized the weakness of Trimble and the UUP before him, and identified Paisley as the only Unionist available to deliver the Unionist community. We then set about creating the conditions that brought such a position about. At times things looked bleak but we were not for turning. We were not confident that Paisley would play ball, but we knew towards the end that the DUP had moved itself into a corner and their hunger for power was great.

I agree that work needs to be done in the communities. But I wonder why so many hard workers that show potential are rejected by Loyalism. I am thinking of Gary McMichael, Davy Adams and many others. I respect Dawn Purvis and Billy Hutchinson has his ups and downs. But I feel that surely Frankie Gallagher and Sammy Duddy are not the best Loyalism has to offer. Frankie was over on the Shankill for the Orange Order march onto the Springfield Road, giving guidance!! I do not know if the actions were his guidance but the tactics were not good. It is difficult to take advantage of political opportunities if the leadership is in constant flux. But the leadership seems weak and poor and afraid of the next internal coup.

I do not see how the 12th or 11th night can be inclusive, maybe I do not properly understand but I see the 12th as a triumphant display of sectarianism. But Protestantism is entitled to celebrate its culture in its own areas, just do not try to rub my nose into the shit, by parading outside my house. And where my life is disrupted by such displays, bonfires/parades or their aftermath expect me to protest at such displays.

[blueman]

setanta said:

blueman said:

A few working class fellows like WASP, Harry and myself are not going to make a difference.

I complelty disagree with that statement. Who are the middle or upper class who led Republicanism to where it is now? There weren't any! Just because you're working class doesn't mean that you are predestened to cow tow to your supposid social betters, man. I'm working class as well but I work in a very upper-middle class enviroment in a upper middle class setting. I am not intimidated by anyone who's daddy had more money than my daddy or who had the "respectable" postcode growing up. I am a Republican and nobody, I mean nobody, is worth more or less than me.
I don't want to appear disrespectful to your culture but to me this looks like a symptom of your love of Monarchy and the caste system that it is. It's like a servile mentality that you MUST break free from if you are going to achieve anything. Have confidence in your abilities and recognise the clear fact that if you and Harry and WASP think this way then there must be more like you. And what's more you must KNOW that you have the abilities to serve your communities for the betterment of those communities and not just for vested interests.
The Cuban Revolution started off with 12 People and they overthrew their government. Great Oaks and Acorns and all that.

I feel like slapping you in the head and shaking you. God, I hate that mentality so much.
Put it this way, in an open honest debate with a DUPer do you think you can hold your own?
The answer better be YES or you need councilling man because they're no great shakes.

blueman said:

All we can do in the meantime is try to highlight these pretenders and expose them for the hypocrites they really are. Hopefully some day the Ulster people will waken up and get them off our backs for once and all.

This is a good idea but you also have to provide an alternaive to what they are offering or you'll be dismissed as a whinger with nothing to offer. A charge leveled at is in Sinn Féin before we were able to articulate our policies better.

Well Setanta, we could level the same charges at you and the subservient Irish. We might lick the English arse but the Irish lick the Roman arse. At the end of the day which of us is the worse off. The Ulster experience is a hard and brutal one as we are between the devil and the deep blue sea. An English despotic monarch or a Roman despotic Pope, hard choice for an oul Ulster Dissenter. Perhaps the Dubliner would like to lead the way and co-erce the oul Blueman into the Roman way of thinking or a Londoner would like to co-erce us into the English way of thinking. I think not, we will do our own thinking and lead ourselves to the Dissenting way of thought. We will be ruled by neither Queen or Pope but like the Americans will be ruled by Democracy, Fair Play and Parity of Esteem and even though London and Dublin find that reprehensible the oul Ulsterman and Blueman will be happy enough to be treated as equals in the land of their birth.

[Wasp]

For me I have no time for Paisley and his crew, nor could I bring myself to vote for them again after all their lies and deceit. They misled IMO my community and are on nothing more than a power trip and I can't wait till they knock on my door for votes.

But as it stands there is IMO no other party for Unionists to turn to, no party for people who are left feeling confused and let down regardless of class. Too much infighting amongst loyalist groups which puts people off voting for the political wing of any loyalist grouping amongst other things. I am working class and I work dam hard to make ends meet but I would consider myself to be right wing in my thinking.

For me one of the main things concerning sinn fein is for them to truly acknowledge the sectarian sickening campaign against the Protestant community that they supported and were part of. This has not happened and probably never will happen and untill they admit there ethnic cleansing, there sectarian attacks and carnage then I will always, always point it out. As much as I condemn Paisley for all that he has done and he is guilty of alot of things, I do not see how the likes of him can be equally compared with the likes of McGuiness as far as being part of any acts of terrorism are concerned. Paisley done plenty wrong but even he doesn't hold a candle to that cu*t McGuiness.

I would meet any republican to discuss the current situation as I have done lately with both republicans and loyalists but I will never get passed the issue of what republican terrorists really done and those who supported there cowardly hate filled crimes.

[An Fear Dubh]

I do not want to get drawn into the cul-de-sac of the blame game or to compare one death against another as it does not head towards constructive debate. But nor should it be dismissed and not considered important. But I feel it is sad that you find yourself Wasp unable to get beyond that point. You are not alone and there are many like you, and many on the nationalist side with the same conviction that Unionism is to blame. I feel Paisley can be equally compared to McGuiness, some go further and suggest he was at it before Martin got out of short trousers. I have spoken to many Loyalist prisoners who felt the ONLY reason they were in prison was because of Paisley. And they believe they read between the lines and did his bidding. And they felt bitter and let down by Paisley. I know of few Republicans that feel they were led by Adams or McGuiness into something that they were not aware of. You must then question who is the most forthright. He who weaves a web and manipulates or he who provides leadership and holds to that leadership. Because Paisley marched militant Loyalism up to the top of hill and then left them there.

You are not going to get an acknowledgment from Republicans that their campaign was an attempt at ethnic cleansing. Because that is not how Republicans view it. The best I can do is acknowledge that people were killed and that some were targeted above others because of their religion and position within our local society. But that targeting was not policy and that if such targeting methods were used (as I believe they were) it was wrong and not done for Republican goals.

It was because of such targeting and lack of direction such poor targeting provided. That another tactic had to be developed, Republicans were able to look beyond the small-minded thinking of the local situation.

For those who from Unionism who are able to look beyond the words of Paisley. They need to create the nucleus of a body that will be ready to reap the benefits of the political opportunities. For now small is a good starting point.

[Wasp]

Paisley is an idiot, a liar and helped cause alot of the trouble with some of his hate filled speeches. BUT he did not sit for thirty odd years and lead the uvf/uda and plan attacks. I know he condemned loyalsit violence and infact it was loyalists not republicans who targeted his home. I know that many loyalists blame him for inciting them to join various groups. Paisley tried to be something he is not and that is a true leader to the people of Ulster.

I am not interested in the blame game but I am not going to let republicans off the hook by air brushing what really happened, trying to justify their actions by pointing out what others had done or comparing themselves to the security forces. I never have and I never will. There is over three decades of factual proof, thousands of victims and thousands more witnesses along with all the tv footage etc. So no matter how republicans try and dress up there campaign of sectarian violence there are many people just like me who don't buy there crap and that isn't just Protestants either or just in N.Ireland.

[Jim]

Well WASP, people did not wake up one morning and decide after having some toast and tea to blow up a building. Violence was reactionary to the situation and it seems to be something many unionists dont understand. Instead of thinking with the mentality that they came to ruin a society that was "working", try thinking of it as reactionary, obviously there was something very very wrong. In any society in the world, when something is morbidly going wrong, people will fight back.

I do see Paisley as someone who helped loyalist paramilitaries and I even believe he supplied them with weapons, but its not something i'm going to dwell on because its no use anymore, i'm satisfied with the current situation for the most part.