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Post by Jim on Jul 24, 2007 1:51:24 GMT
What about SF members that didnt join the IRA? I know a few people in SF who arent in the IRA, they're my age, are they anti democratic?
How is it a typical republican response when its well known that the security forces used paramilitaries like puppets to let off bombs and do their dirty work? Theres a department dedicated to uncovering it! Hardly a typical republican excuse.
We know what the IRA has done and I've already said I didnt agree with a lot of it (infact, most of it), you dont need to name what they've done as they arent the only ones with blood on their hands. It doesnt change the fact that they started for a different reason. A united ireland became an aim eventually when the british army where deployed on mass.
The IRA kept its campaigning and the "peaceful" parties wherent able to agree on the colour of shite nevermind run the place, the UUP didnt want to be there either even though they headed the government.
Why not the same rights as middle class protestants? If working class protestants wanted equal rights it was for their community to get up and shout about it and make the noise, unless your saying they would have wanted the IRA to speak for them? I highly doubt it.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 24, 2007 19:02:50 GMT
Jim you know fine rightly I am talking about the actions that sinn fein supported and had members being part of for three decades of violence. Your mates wouldn't have been old enough to take part in that violence now would they?
It is not well known it is well thought or made up by republicans, not well known. What about the thousands of bombs diffused/found and the thousands of bomb attaks thwarted? When enough people cry about something there has to be enquiries, this is the case even in employment against any complaints whether factual or not. More like a grievance procedure. Again why do republicans who supported/planted bombings etc complain about anyone else doing it. Hypocritical to say the least.
I know, you have already said that you were ashamed of supporting sinn fein because of what they were part of. So we shouldn't name what the ira has done, yet republicans are very quick and have alot to say about what Unionists have done, what the security forces have/alledged to have done etc. This is hypocricy again, very much a case of we will name what we want, go on about it, demand enquiry after enquiry but we will not have what we done mentioned. Come on now that's hardly fair now is it? Another problem here is that republicans do not admit there sectarian campaign against the Protestant community or there part in ethnic cleansing.
So because people couldn't agree for various reasons this is an excuse for keeping such a violent campaign going even though all parties and governments for years condemned the violence and said it was keeping N.Ireland away from democracy. Saying that there was always the ballot box and the armalite approach by republicans.
So you are saying working class Catholics wanted the ira to speak for them by blowing people to bits and shooting people, most of whom were unarmed? Maybe these Catholics are not so nice after all and with supporting such violence at their neighbours perhaps they have no room to complain about anything that happened to them. Because maybe what they supported came back to haunt them. Difference is here Jim that wanting equal rights as you put it as middle class Protestants is not an excuse for thirty years of violence, never was and never will be. With democracy being spoke from many republicans I think they should have tried that as other working class Catholics did (sdlp and there supporters) to try and bring the necessary changes about. But then again it is as good excuse as any to attack those whom you hate ie the British which includes Unionists of all classes.
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Post by Jim on Jul 25, 2007 3:22:12 GMT
And thats why we're coming into a new era of republicanism. Many old timers in SF are being slowly replaced by a new set of people and if you look at the candidate and representative lists for a lot of constituencies north and south youll see more and more younger faces. So why are you labelling them terrorists and whatever else you spit out?
Collusion is well known enough to be acknowledged at the highest level of Government, what more do you want? Hardly thought up! Why shouldnt they be against state murder? The role of the state is to protect everyone indifferently and they didnt do that. The IRA where not the state. What the british government done was against every meaning for a state to exist.
As a voter I am more concerned with what sinn fein do right now, and what they plan to do tomorrow, than what the IRA done 30 years ago. That goes for every other party. I support big Ian as first minister but I dont like the man, I recognise his right to be there and I recognise McGuiness's right to be there. You dont, and apparently republicans are the undemocratic ones.
There was no ethnic cleansing, not at all, not by loyalists, not by republicans. If there was going to be any sort of ethnic cleansing 10x more people would have died, we'd be looking at a deathlist more to the likes of what has happened in eastern europe through the past few decades. The IRA would have slaughtered thousands apon thousands of protestants and the UVF and UDA would have slaughtered thousands apon thousands of catholics. It didnt happen. That is why republicans dont admit to any sort of ethnic cleansing. It didnt bloody happen!
The IRA kept going because there was a bigger british military presence back then than there is in Iraq today. The only people to hold this state away from democracy where the leaders of certain parties, and heads of certain governments.
No, working class catholics didnt want the IRA to speak for them, they wanted them to defend their areas, which they did when it all kicked off around the battle of the bogside, as a perfect example. You keep mentioning on and on about blowing people to bits and this and that as if its going to add some sort of edge to your post but its making you sound like a broken record that is running out of things to say! There were no bombs when people were campaigning for equal rights and when the IRA where starting, the only paramilitary group to exist before the provos was the UVF.
It is an excuse for 30 years of violence as far as I'm concerned. if people lived in the same conditions any other western "democracy" the government would have been burnt out and the army would have turned on them, a revolution. wouldnt be the first time to happen. There was no democracy, it was literally a one party state with a lousy idea of elections where some people had 5 votes and others had no votes, with constituency borders drawn up so tribal voting would suit one set of people. That was the reality of it wasp, the reality you forget. As a socialist I believe everyone should have the same rights.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Jul 25, 2007 10:40:18 GMT
Good post Jim
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Post by Wasp on Jul 25, 2007 16:23:47 GMT
I agree there are many young people coming through. I did not label them terrorists nor did I label present day members of sinn fein as all being terrorists. Why do you try and make a difference between terrorist bombs for thirty years and alledged state bombs that alledgedly took place while ignoring those soldiers who risked life and limb to diffuse bombs to SAVE lives not destroy lives. I am concerned with what sinn fein do now, some moves made are right ones or are to be welcomed, some are not but that doesn't mean I am going to forget about the 30 years before that. This is quite frankly bull shit. No other words can be said to describe your post about ethnic cleansing not happening. Either you are too young or you are very misinformed. One doesn't have to kill to ethnically cleanse an area, a few deaths, few attacks and loads of intimidation does the trick. Republicans DID take part in ethnically cleansing certain areas by murder, attacks and intimidation. Try telling that to my late aunt who suffered for years before eventually having to leave the street of her childrens birthplace. This wasn't just from republican louts it was from the ira as well. Two big hardmen intimidating a 5ft 1" lady. Wankers. Good a reason as any if you are a republican to target Unionist towns, Unionist areas and the Unionist people with bombs and bullets then. So I sound like a broken record, well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.  Can you not move a few years forward and stop focusing on just the time the ira started. As a socialist don't you think then people should have the same right to life itself just like others which the ira took away from many men, women and children. I am glad you see it as an excuse for thirty years of violence and I hope your happy with your opinion. So even when changes were made it was still an excuse for the continuation for violence for a few more decades? The reason the ira kept the violence going was because they tried to bomb and shoot the Unionist people into submission, to surrender as well as to kill and maim as many as possible. This was proved time and time again by undeniable facts for years. How you could face the families of those who lost loved ones or those that were scarred for life etc after a comment like that I don't know. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 26, 2007 5:52:40 GMT
I dont ignore it, I just didnt mention it, its taken for granted and we arent questioning the bomb squad that did defuse bombs. Like I've said there are loads of things the 'ra did that I've no liking for. They shouldnt have been bombing economic targets because it ws detrimental to the working class, they shouldnt have been doing no-warning bombs and they shouldnt have been bombing civilian areas in England, like the Manchester bombing (although in saying that it was thanks to that bomb that the city got loads of cash and became a big player  ). They should have stuck to british army, paramilitary and corrupt peeler targets. How is it full of shit WASP? You think ethnic cleansing happened but it didnt. For ethnic cleansing to happen there has to be more reason, we arent different ethnicities, catholics and protestants arent two different races of people, its not like comparing armanians to slavs or other cases of ethnic cleansing, we're the bloody same, the only obvious difference is religion and both are christian sects with more in common than you would think! I'm not too young and I'm not misinformed, ethnic cleansing never happened, no one attempted it, and the numbers show it. My own granny was forced out of where she lived at gun point (long before the provos formed at that!), is that ethnic cleansing? No its not. There was a loyalist campaign of removing catholics from their areas and putting them into certain areas like west belfast, but its not ethnic cleansing. If it was ethnic cleansing more than 3000 people would have died (many of which were paramilitaries actually) you'd be looking at mass slaughters, 20,000 people dead. Yes they do have the same right to life and if you read my previous paragraphs I agree with you on that. People also have a right to stand up for their rights that other western societies take for granted, what the rest of britain was taking for granted, what the south was taking for granted, what france, germany, norway, and countless others were taking for granted. People here didnt have that. The right to protest without state hinderance, the right to vote, the right to political opposition that didnt have to be approved by the state, the right to a fair employment, the right not to be interned for being from a certain area, the right to fair trials, fuck sake I could go on for hours. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 26, 2007 12:19:19 GMT
I could also go on for hours but saying that some of your post I do agree with even in part. On ethnic cleansing though I totally disagree, bothsides done it and bothsides suffered from it. Take the Balkans the ethnic cleansing there was extreme and it involved those from different religions and identity. Although N.Ireland did not suffer the same scale it still did happen because of identity and religion. To say no-one attempted it is wrong unless you view ethnic cleansing as having a different meaning to myself.
Ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of an "undesirable" population from a given territory due to religious or ethnic discrimination, political, strategic or ideological considerations, or a combination of these.
From Sir Reg Empey on rioting in June 2002.
East Belfast Ulster Unionist assembly member Sir Reg Empey, who visited the area on Saturday morning, said republicans were attempting to force Protestant residents from their homes.
"This place has been ruined and the people are being driven out of it. It is ethnic cleansing and there is no other way of describing it.
"The place is stinking of petrol and completely covered with debris and the houses are destroyed," he said.
By Ciaran Mulholland.
On the other hand unionists and loyalists blame the republican movement, arguing that they are mounting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Protestants.
There is no doubt that there has been a loyalist onslaught against Catholic areas in Belfast and against isolated Catholics in areas such as Antrim, Ballymena, Larne and Coleraine.
This is only part of the picture however. Catholic sectarianism is very real and there have been attacks on Protestant homes, churches, Orange Halls etc.
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Post by Jim on Jul 26, 2007 14:59:05 GMT
i know there have been attacks and that nationalist secterianism exists but i just dont see it as ethnic cleansing, this place is too small and localised already for it to be ethnic cleansing.
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blueman
Junior Member
Warnings expired
Posts: 97
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Post by blueman on Jul 26, 2007 23:00:02 GMT
Well Setanta, we could level the same charges at you and the subservient Irish. We might lick the English arse but the Irish lick the Roman arse. What the Hell are you talking about? We are a modern secular democracy. We are subservient to no one Mate I couldn't care less about any Church at all and I don't care what religion you are. Your religion is your business Dude, there's no question at all of any Pope doing any leading in this state So we both have the same vision of Ireland The PIRA murder machine undoubtedly engaged in Sectarian killings and to this day refuse to apologise or say they were wrong for the suffering caused to innocent victims of their violence..Have you not read this blueman? news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/2132113.stmYou still haven't said what you're going to do about your grievances blueman. It must get lonely up there on your pedestal. Why don't you join up with like minded political activists and actually do something about it instead of pontificating. Well lonely and all as I might get on my pedestal I would rather stand alone rather than bow down to DUP/IRA or any other gang of dictators for that matter. I can only air my grievances at the moment and wait patiently until someone or something is raised up to destroy the gangsters who currently run my country. The DUPERS who have rose to power dramatically on one hand and the Muderers of innocents on the other hand now run the show. Interesting how they both pretended to be at each others throats for all these years and now suddenly come together as they engage in a sickening Love In. Paisley is a deceitful and proven liar and Sinn Fein/IRA have grasped power through the Armalite/Ballot Box strategy so it would appear that they do indeed have plenty in common with each other. The religious bias in your version of Republicanism is there for all to see as you have successfully cleansed Ireland of all the Proddie Heretics and outwardly pretend that the Church and State are seperate but the Church runs both your schools and your healthcare so in effect runs your State. No Prods in your police force, army, navy or air force. The token few that you have left in your country are discriminated against at every level in your Roman dominated Sectarian State. Funny in Northern Ireland we have a healthy mix of RC's and Protestants, almost 50/50, yet step over the border, into the State locked in some sort of a timewarp, and the Proddie statistics drop rapidly, from 50% in Ulster to less than 2% in the Sectarian Irish Republic. Funny that, and it tells its own story but no doubt you will conjure up some Republican lies to suggest that all the Proddies loved your Roman religion so much they just had to convert over or perhaps they all emigrated or just decided that the Craicsters weren't just the affable, loveable rogues the outside world images them to be. No doubt a thousand and one Republican myths to dilute the truth, cover up the historical and statistical facts and as you continue to live in your Republican cukkoo land believing your own lies. Some sort of outside body which is neutral should be set us to ask a simple question, since the formation of this Roman Irish Republican State, Where have all the Prods gone?, not to mention a few Jews no doubt displaced along the way as the Gaelic, Roman, Republican war machine grinds ruthlessly on until all of the oul homeland is cleansed. And then what are you going to do, start on mainland UK no doubt as I can see you have the little Irish plants already in place with the Republican Flag of Shame atarting to emerge at football and rugby grounds all over England as well as Scotland. Dark days loom for Ulster and the rest of the United Kingdom |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 27, 2007 17:13:06 GMT
coming back to some of the sillier points about specifically Protestants in the army, naval service and air corps (it does help your argument's strength if you use the correct names for these services in the irish republic!). You had this argument with me elsewhere Blue and I pointed out to you that while I was not too sure about the air corps or naval service (and bear in mind all told there is only 930 members of the former and 1,440 with reserves included of the former) there are plenty of Protestants in the army element of the Defence Forces. My father as I pointed out to you was a long term member of the army in the republic and he will tell you that if you pop down to the Curragh you will find churches for both Protestants and Catholics on the base and that it was a general rule of a Sunday that masses were staggered to allow for numbers of soldiers to be available for essential jobs and that Protestant and Catholic soldiers used to tend to swap jobs or arrange rotas so as to be able to go to church more easily. Lets's see, my father's CO was from an anglo-irish protestant background, a fellow sergeant was from a working class Dublin protestant background and I can think of numerous other soldiers. So it would perhaps be a good idea to be more sure of your facts and not just trot out received wisdom on the 'Roman state'. Or perhaps I am ethnically cleansing other religions as my fiancee is most certainly not catholic as she is from the orthodox church?  But since neither of us is particularly religous it won't bother us (although to shut up respective parents we will probably have to get a priest from the catholic and orthodox church to do the wedding which considering the local priests from both churches are friends shouldn't be a problem. Now if you had wanted to seriously raise the problems of a kind of muted anti-Protestant bias that did persist for to long in the state you could have helped yourself out more as to be frank there is a laughable irony in writing a post about bigotry that it itself redolent of it. Your understanding of the conflicts and tensions between republicanism and the church over the last 100 years (and before) is non-existent which straight away dooms your analysis. Your argument about the population mixture is irreleavant since OF COURSE N.Ireland has a different popualtion structure to the rest of the island due to the way it was created - it would be like saying if we put 5 black cows and 5 white cows in one field and 100 and 10 black cows white cows in the other fields something funny is going on if the former field apart from all the others. Now, YES protestantism was discourage through a subtle kind of message both official and unofficial and mixed marriages did take their toll on it but you seem to be living in an Ireland that has not exsisted for a good 30 years in your post, also over 4 per cent of the republic's populace list themselves as belonging to Protestant denominations and that percentage has been growing heavily in recent years and not shrinking. You cannot use bigotry such as your arguments to argue against bigotry it is unproductive int the extreme. And as to people of Irish backgrounds waving an Irish flag at a football match been 'dark days' to speak frankly that is paranoia. Do dark days loom for that part of Ulster which is already part of the ROI to btw? Just thought I would ask ? |
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Post by bluedog on Jul 27, 2007 20:13:38 GMT
Cant be arsed quoting, just in from a 12 hour shift and havent slept in 24 hours  doing it in number form. 1. How can SF be the largest republican and nationalist party in the north yet not be democratic? that statement makes no sense. 2. Oh, dont you worry the security forces done enough of their own blowing up and shooting, they just did it so as it would be blamed on other groups. 3. Yes, as you know by now (ive told you enough times) the Provos didnt start as a organisation set out on a united ireland, it was formed as a protection of nationalist areas from the ruc, b specials and uvf. If catholics and nationalists had the same rights as the middle class protestants, the PIRA wouldnt have came into existance, thats how I see it. 4. What own government? If your talking about the civil war, the elections surrounding it where dodgy at best. If your talking about Stormont, it was anything but democratic. It was probably the least democratic state in western europe that held "elections". Theres the difference, right there. Don't you get slightly embarrassed talking about democracy and Sinn Fein in the one breath.I don't think Mrs Heggarty regards the treatment of her son as to democratic.The Cooke report showed the democratic behaviour of the deputy first minister and it was'nt very pleasant.You should be the last people to lecture anyone on democracy.Can you explain were democracy comes into the "nutting squad" run by that nice chap steak knife? |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 27, 2007 20:28:26 GMT
not really - britain ignored the democratic result of the the elections after world war one where sinn fein was the clear majority party after all several times in a row so it appears democracy is a flexible concept as always in politics.
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Post by bluedog on Jul 27, 2007 20:45:39 GMT
not really - britain ignored the democratic result of the the elections after world war one where sinn fein was the clear majority party after all several times in a row so it appears democracy is a flexible concept as always in politics. Your Sinn Fein democracy is so well liked down there the people have booted your party into touch.You'll have to come up here now and enjoy the fellowship with the only people like you Big Ian and co.Its not a "love in" its a "scum in". ;D and lots of filthy lucre to ,its great.You can sit between Jeffrey and Ian Junior but just watch in case Wee Willie's behind you  |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 27, 2007 20:56:05 GMT
actually i live in London mate as you are aware as you know me well you just don't recognise me under this name. I am not Sinn Fein's biggest booster by any mean as I see myself as socialist in the tradition of Connolly or Mellowes and at best would only loosely identify with Sinn Fein (that said I can identify them with a thousand times more than people like McDowell who as has been said is a Thatcher-lite).
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Post by bluedog on Jul 27, 2007 21:30:01 GMT
actually i live in London mate as you are aware as you know me well you just don't recognise me under this name. I am not Sinn Fein's biggest booster by any mean as I see myself as socialist in the tradition of Connolly or Mellowes and at best would only loosely identify with Sinn Fein (that said I can identify them with a thousand times more than people like McDowell who as has been said is a Thatcher-lite). Why so much hatred for Mc Dowell?Is it because he dislikes IRA/SinnFein? |
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). They should have stuck to british army, paramilitary and corrupt peeler targets.
But since neither of us is particularly religous it won't bother us (although to shut up respective parents we will probably have to get a priest from the catholic and orthodox church to do the wedding which considering the local priests from both churches are friends shouldn't be a problem. 
doing it in number form.