blueman
Junior Member
Warnings expired
Posts: 97
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Post by blueman on Jul 21, 2007 19:50:13 GMT
Some very good posts and very interesting ones as to how Republicans view Paisley and his motely crew. Perhaps Paisley did not commit the same crimes as the Republican leadership but I don't think it was because he had more moral fibre but I believe the big bluffer lacked the guts for any real fighting. The DUPERS talked more about fighting than anybody I know and did absolutely none. Instead craftily and cunningly they wound others up and then hid in the background skillfully working the situation for their own financial and political gain.
Thank God some people are catching on to these parasites who have fed off the suffering and plight of others. A few interesting articles in today's Newsletter about Doctor Willie. Apparently he is under immense pressure as his lies have eventually caught up with him. One minute he is against sharing power with the Shinners and the next he is lambasting Unionists who are reluctant to share power calling them promoters of Republican Propaganda. He can't seem to make his mind up but the truth of the matter is that McCrea and Doctor Doom have been caught out at long last and their insatiable thirst for money and power has exposed them for the hypocrites and Lundy's that they really are.
I believe they are completely out of their depth politically and that is coming to the fore on a daily basis. It is one thing lying back and sniping at the UUP for years discrediting their policies and lying to the Ulster Electorate but it is another thing to be put into a position of leadership and responsibility. The DUPERS are found out big time and hence one somersault after another. I really think Marty and Gerry are taking the pish out of them big time. Everytime I think of that wee yapping face of McCrea's it makes me laugh to see the snake in the hole he has dug for himself. Everytime he tries to dig himself out of the tissue of lies he just digs it a little deeper. I am sure oul Trimble and his wife are lying back doing some laughing as the DUPERS crumble. To think they physically assaulted oul Trimble and Daphne for sharing power with the SDLP and now they share power with the godfathers of Republican terror is unbelievable. Slow and all as the Ulster people are I don't think they will buy that one.
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Post by Jim on Jul 21, 2007 20:11:30 GMT
Loyalists lack a real party. I've seen for a while now that the biggest difference with the republican community and the loyalist community is leadership. Republicanism has always had a strong leadership whereas loyalists have went from big house unionism, to the "new" UUP and now the DUP, all middle class parties and people with no interest in the working class other than their vote and their tax.
I dont see why the majority of working class protestants dont support the PUP even now that the UVF are/have wound up almost because that seemed to be the biggest reason why not. they're not afraid to talk back to SF either and have always pressed their loyalist case strong, stronger than the DUP, but they still dont get the vote.
But I have to disagree with your last few lines because the UUP and SDLP power sharing was destined to fail, not everyone was ready for it and certainly SF or the DUP wherent ready for it, I dont even think the UUP where ready for it. The only two parties that would have worked it competely would be the SDLP and the PUP, who didnt have the vote to do so anyway.
Who are the ulster people you are talking about? Half of us do buy it as nationalists, and a large chunk of unionists buy it too.
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Post by bluedog on Jul 21, 2007 20:16:16 GMT
The fact is a conflict over three decades took place and terrible deeds were inflicted on each side of the fence.Republicans will never however admit to any wrong doing and ultimately if this does not change I cannot see the current state of affairs continuing.An admission that ordinary Protestants were targeted because of their religion will not be accepted by them never mind any sort of apology forthcoming.The words "true and abject remorse" will never cross their lips.If this were to change there would be hope.This thread however is about people who deceived the unionist electorate,hood winked them,conned them,and tomorrow will be marching into church with their smug self righteous pharisee smile.Over decades their spiritual leader systematically wrecked the lives of decent unionist leaders who could easily have come to agreement with the majority of nationalists,and hence the sorry legacy of thousands of deaths could possibly have been prevented.Did this great spiritual man do this for the benefit of Ulster?it would seem not but for his own self adulation a trait not commonly associated with Gods people.I remember having many arguments about Large Ian and his cult and many didnt like it,many didnt like a man with a dog collar being subjected to ridicule,but now the truth is being revealed and the man that called upteen people traitor is the ultimate traitor,so is Wee Willie,and Jeffrey.I wonder how those that assaulted Trimble and sang all eight verses of Paisley is our leader feel today.I think like many other cults the blind will remain blind as the 88 year old found out at the Diamond recently.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 0:21:19 GMT
So that is as good a reason as any for the sectarian murderous crimes commited against Protestants??? So the violence against Protestants was reactionary? More like blatant sectarian killing if you ask me.
For you maybe but not for me and thousands like me.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 3:44:54 GMT
But you would say that anyway, you thought this place was peachy before the troubles if I remember correctly. I'm not here to stand up for what the IRA done,
I'm not in the IRA and will never know the real reason behind many of those murders, but I can give my thoughts on a good lot of it, and its pretty much accepted by many people that the PIRA wouldnt have existed if Stormont had given the same rights to the nationalist working class as they gave to themselves. The PIRA wherent southerners, they where northerners, born and bred in the north. How can it not be reactionary?
And, your not happy with the government but you dont even bother your hole to vote as far as I'm aware.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 10:21:24 GMT
I never ever said this place was peachy before the troubles, I said many times Unionist leaders made many many mistakes, especially Paisley. But one has to remember all the factors that played a part in Unionist decisions even though they were wrong ones. We also have to remember as things changed there was the peacefull sdlp who didn't use violence to achieve there political ambitions but republicans kept on with the murder and mayhem. They tried and failed to bomb and shoot the Unionist people of N.Ireland into a united Ireland but all they done was strengthen the resolve of Unionisim. While Unionist politicians at times made wrong and unfair decisions this was no excuse for three decades of bloodshed by the ira with the support for their actions by there mouthpieces in sinn fein and not forgetting those members of sinn fein who played a big part in carrying out and planning the cowardly crimes against men women and children. Was the Unionist working class not treated the same as the nationalist working class? When stormont fell was the changes introduced not enough to stop the violence when many nationalists who supported the sdlp did not support republican violence?
The ira were nothing but dictators who acted like nazis or anyother facist group by killing those who opposed them with the most deadly of tactics. There was never any excuse for the bloodshed which was inflicted on the people of N.Ireland and elsewhere by the ira, never any excuse. The sdlp proved that.
You say the ira would never have existed if it wasn't for stormont well we would have had peace a lot sooner with many less deaths if it was not for the ira. They proved time and time again they did not want peace by their actions. It was because of the ira that Unionists maintained the siege mentality and did not want to give anything as this would be seen as a victory for terrorists. But Unionists did deal with the sdlp through the years and had a good working relationship as time went on with the much needed change. It was the ira that kept the violence going, not the Irish gov, British gov, Unionists or anyone else. That BTW does not mean the ira are to blame for everything but they certainly kept the violence going no matter what the pleas were for a stop to it.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 15:34:56 GMT
When I first came onto the old website you and some others had this idea that NI was in harmony untill the big bad IRA came and ruined it. The SDLP didnt use violence because it was originally a labour movement and gerry fitt never had any real ambitions to a united ireland, it was only preferable to the union to him. The SDLP didnt prove anything, judging by the last election. Unionists didnt have a good working relationship with the SDLP or Irish Labour before it, they completely shunned them and only worked with them when they had to, I was told that by a protestant orangeman who I work with, who was a member of irish labour with fitt himself.
No we wouldnt have had peace, the UVF where around before the provisionals even started and the B specials and RUC done their piece too, thats what I mean when you think everything was peachy, you forget about the state forces at work.
You say it was the IRA that kept the violence going yet you forget it was the British army who kept them recruiting everytime they kicked down a door and interred someone because they where a nationalist, thus a possible IRA member.
Get my point? Whatever you think, not one group kept the violence going, everything was reactionary, thats how conflict works. We wouldnt have had "peace" with or without the IRA, there wasnt peace in the first place, just an uneasy lifestyle.
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blueman
Junior Member
Warnings expired
Posts: 97
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Post by blueman on Jul 22, 2007 20:31:06 GMT
The PIRA murder machine undoubtedly engaged in Sectarian killings and to this day refuse to apologise or say they were wrong for the suffering caused to innocent victims of their violence. At least the loyalists have admitted that much of their violence was directed at innocent people and even though it doesn't bring much comfort to the relatives of those killed there would at least appear to be some remorse in the part they played in the conflict. The smug self righteous Shinners aren't as honest or open in their admissions but I suspect that is because in their own eyes they haven't really done anything wrong. After all they were fighting for oul Ireland's Freedom and the mass murder of Proddie Heretics not to mention the mass murder of ordinary Roman Catholics was only part of the armed struggle and the end justifies the means. The Nationalist electorate in the North endorsed their struggle with the massive vote they received so they too are not ashamed of the horrendous tactics adopted by the bully boys but stand side by side with Marty, Gerry and the hate filled movement.
The DUPERS have now given these people even more credibility by welcoming them with open arms into the highest positions of power. To think the likes of Jeffrey Donaldson had the neck to destroy Trimble for going into government with the SDLP and now he is happy enough to follow the DUPERS in their Love In with 'Unrepentant and Unreconstructed terrorists'. I must admit their hypocrisy is beyond belief but the antics of Doctor Doom with the self confessed PIRA Commander is a real eye opener for a lot of people especially those who have lost loved ones at the hands of these Fascists.
At least the Southern Irish have shown Sinn Fein/IRA the door and Eoghan Harris stated today that Ahern was determined not to allow them into his cabinet so Bertie has more integrity than the DUPERS who have trampled the blood of all of the victims of PIRA under their feet in their insatiable thirst for power and recognition. Big Baa Face and his devious crew have been well and truely exposed over the last two months and I have a gut feeling there is much more to come in the days that lie ahead.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 21:58:15 GMT
That is your opinion Jim but certainly not mine. On the security forces they had an extremely different job to do and with thousands in the ranks over the years only a few apparently tarnished their good name. They served to protect whereas the ira served to kill and maim as many people as they could. Their actions were there for all to see. Kicking down a door looking for weapons or looking for those who carried out cowardly acts is a typical republican excuse to blame the security forces for keeping ira recruitment going. Yes innocent people had there houses searched but that happened on both sides and if the terrorists hadn't been hiding like cowards within their community, carrying out attacks like cowards in their community then what need would there have been for house searches? Or perhaps you would have preferred no check points, no house searches where terrorists could freely carry out attacks and move weapons to kill and maim people.
There was all too often poor or false intelligence but if the security forces had not acted on it and it turned out to be good intelligence what would the cries be then if people were killed as a result of not acting on it?
The sdlp shunned Unionism at times and vice versa but as time went on at least both supported peace and condemned all terrorist acts although Paisley was nothing more than a hypocrite especially in the seventies. The ira kept the violence going and loyalists had this excuse for the bloodshed they carried out. On the sdlp vote I was not talking about last year I was talking about through three decades of republican violence and sinn fein proved nothing by being part of the cowardly crimes they and their cronies carried out/supported for thirty odd years apart from proving there violence was a waste of innocent lives which I am sure they are all very proud of.
Blueman that was a very good point on the Southern Irish who certainly did show sinn fein the door and on the dupers well I can't argue with any of that. Donaldson is a hypocrite of the highest order just like his leader.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 23:27:20 GMT
Only a few tarnished their good name? It takes more than a few bad apples to round up and intern thousands of people. Its not a typical republican excuse, they got everyone but IRA men and those interned usually ended up joining the IRA when the nature of the british state became clear.
They did serve to protect, they where ordered to protect the state, and the ira where ordered to cripple the state as a british state for british people, no catholics and no irish to be part of it, both played their role. But you dont want to believe that.
The UUP did not support peace in the stormont years, the UUP done more to start the troubles than Paisley himself did or the IRA did. The official unionists and the uvf where around long before the PIRA formed, you should remember tat.
Three decades ago Sinn Fein didnt stand for election, so obviously the SDLP got the vote.
I'm not even that bothered by all of that anymore, as far as I'm concerned the current government is working, and every party in there has a vote, they all have a mandate, and they all have a right to be there whether unionists like it or not and those that dont support it may just stop supporting any sort of democratic movement. The old undemocratic stormont is never coming back.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 23:41:30 GMT
And the ira would know all about democracy where people were never given a choice, even there kangaroo courts would tell you that. To hear ira supporters who supproted the hidious crimes the ira committed talk about democracy is laughable considering exactly what they supported. Hopefully the totally undemocratic republican movement will never be back either and there supposed support for democracy now will remain rather than what they practiced for over thirty years.
So all those that were involved in internment are now bad apples in your eyes? Well those that were involved or at least the vast majority were doing what there Irish counterparts had done south of the border and that was to try and stop the violence. Sadly innocent people were interned but again perfection is something republicans demand of others when anything concerns them that affected them. But when the shoe is on the other foot it doesn't matter about the repeated 'mistakes' that they kept commiting over and over again in there sectarian campaign of violence.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 23:46:37 GMT
Republicanism was founded on democratic basis, unlike this state which still exists, so they would know a fair bit about democracy consideing Sinn Fein the second largest party on this island.
All those that busted down the doors of families to lift every man above a certain age (and so they must be in the IRA!) are bad apples, yes. Likewise for their Irish counterparts down south. Scumbags the lot of them actually.
Republicans dont demand perfection, we demand people not be treated the way they where 30 years ago, and hopefully under this new government things will be moving in the right direction.
I have to say WASP, for someone that harps on about democracy and peace, your not very fond of this government. You dont realise its our only chance.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 23, 2007 9:08:15 GMT
What they were founded on and what they turned into are two completely different things. SF may be the largest party but they were are a party that was attached to an organisation that done everything that was against democracy or democratic principles. Scumbags to you but to me brave men and women who had a difficult job. But then your condemnation seems to have missed the ira in your statement and what they done. Kicking down doors is much worse than blowing someone to pieces?  They demand people not to be treated the way they were 30 years ago? What about the 30 years that followed and how they treated people? Torture, murder and maiming sums them up, but according to you they don't want people to be treated as they were 30 yrs ago, so bombing and shooting isn't as bad then? Me harping on about democracy etc makes me sound just like a republican, doesn't it when republicans weren't fond of their government they blew the place to bits, but whether or not I like this gov I won't be planting bombs to kill as many people as I can. Theres the difference. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 23, 2007 18:37:19 GMT
Cant be arsed quoting, just in from a 12 hour shift and havent slept in 24 hours  doing it in number form. 1. How can SF be the largest republican and nationalist party in the north yet not be democratic? that statement makes no sense. 2. Oh, dont you worry the security forces done enough of their own blowing up and shooting, they just did it so as it would be blamed on other groups. 3. Yes, as you know by now (ive told you enough times) the Provos didnt start as a organisation set out on a united ireland, it was formed as a protection of nationalist areas from the ruc, b specials and uvf. If catholics and nationalists had the same rights as the middle class protestants, the PIRA wouldnt have came into existance, thats how I see it. 4. What own government? If your talking about the civil war, the elections surrounding it where dodgy at best. If your talking about Stormont, it was anything but democratic. It was probably the least democratic state in western europe that held "elections". Theres the difference, right there. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 23, 2007 20:19:42 GMT
I know the feeling mate.  What did sinn fein supoport and excuse? What of sinn fein membbers who were part of terrorist atrocities ? Now that is far from democratic no matter how you dress it up. Totally disagree with this assumption. Again typical republican response to difflect blame or guilt to take the bad look of things. Even if they did well isn't it hypocritical for republicans to complain about doors being kicked down giving an excuse to those that joined the ira. Yet when police officers were getting blew to bits, shot in the back, kidnapped and tortured, picking bodies of children etc up off the street with shovels republicans have the cheek to complain about any security force member who ALLEDGEDLY sought revenge outside the law. Try telling that to the families of the disappeared, the victims of kangaroo courts who were left dumped at a roadside, the McCartney family, Patsy Gillespies family (the forced suicide bomber) etc etc. Now that is protecting the nationalist community for over three decades. Why the same rights as middle class Protestants? What about working class Protestants, what about there rights? Did you see them bomb and kill for over three decades and using them not having the same rights as the middle class as an excuse for the horrific bloodshed. How long did Stormont last during the troubles? Even when changes were made the ira kept up its campaign of violence, Paisley kept up his scare mongering and ira violence reinforced his words. |
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doing it in number form.