Anger at loyalist grave memorial

[bearhunter]

I've never been sold on the Che Guevara legend, despite the best efforts of hippies everywhere to make him a secular saint. Only good thing about him was the Jim Fitzpatrick portrait, which found fame as a poster on dreary bedsit walls and the t-shirts of earnest skinny women with serious haircuts and pale skin. As for Cuba, it's rotten to the core (despite the erroneous claims that this is all America's fault) the revolution didn't succeed until 1959, so blaming Castro for not having elections since 1948 is a bit much WASP. North Korea is run by a personality cult, not a political regime and while Jim might claim that things aren't as bad as are made out, Kim himself told his southern counterpart recently that they needed food to stop 600,000 people starving to death. So I'd say things are pretty shite in North Korea.

[Jim]

I'm not saying things arent as bad as they are made out, I'm saying certain things arent, or theyre exaggerated or sometimes even underestimated. There are far more people starving than the NK government is letting on, 600,000 people might be the tip of the ice berg, but equally there are plenty with jobs and housing, certain media channels in our west is only going to tell you one thing, not both.

It has no bearings on socialism, they arent a socialist country if they even painted themselves fucking red.

[bearhunter]

They're certainly not. Although I see even Kim is now making friendly noises towards SKorea, so maybe the war will finally be officially over soon. Who knows.

[Jim]

Hopefully someone assasinates the cunt.

[Blue Angel]

not that i'd cry but someone else would step forward -his son been first candidate - che is an odd figure - if you talk to latin amercans you will find some detest him and some idolise him - very few are neutral about him. i'm ambivalent about cuba, the battista regime which preceded castro was truly fucked up also but whatever initial progress was made with the revolution was squandered ultimately.

[Jim]

Indeed.

Better castro than the previous regime.

[Blue Angel]

indeed - wasp might want to look up battistas links to the mafia and organised crime - in particular look up meyer lansky and how influential he was and also how involved lansky was despite his status as a major criminal with the US secret service.

[Wasp]

Setanta I gave page references and why would I need to go to the Cuban Embassy? Is that all you have to say on amnesty's report or are you simply rubbishing it. I am somewhat confused your only comment on it was me knocking the embassys door and having a chat.

On Tanzania heres some more.

In an interview in the mid-1970s, Ruairi O'Bradaigh explained that Sinn Fein's programme inspired itself from a number of countries. "When we talk about our federal structures of government and local participation, there is something like that in Switzerland. When we talk about workers' ownership there is something like that in Yugoslavia. On the co-operative side we find certain developments in Danish agriculture quite encouraging." ("Interview with Steve Johns", An Phoblacht (vol.7 n.28) 16 July 1976, p.5) The countries most referred to up to the late 1970s are the Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Yugoslavia and Tanzania. The new Ireland would be a synthesis of all good aspects in those countries. Sinn Fein then showed a great interest in Swiss Federalism. A brochure titled "Switzerland - A Model of Federal Democracy" was even for sale for years in the offices of Provisional Sinn Fein located in Kevin Street.

Sinn Fein presented the Ujamaa as being "Eire Nua Tanzanian style" ('Eldrida', "Ujamaa: Eire Nua Tanzanian Style", An Phoblacht (vol.8 n.3) 25 January 1977, p.4 as well as 'Eldrida', "Ujamaa", An Phoblacht (vol.8 n.4), 1 February 1977, p.4) Tanzania was the closest example to the type of regime Provisional Republicans were seeking to establish in Ireland. In 1978, a member of Sinn Fein Foreign Affairs Bureau visited Tanzania, and wrote about the trip under the pseudonym of "Eldrida". "There is much in the Tanzanian experiment which should be of interest to Irish Republicans. Tanzanians are also discovering what 'ourselves alone' means, and that the 'risen people' are they themselves when they came together to claim and build their own nation." ('Eldrida', "Building a Nation in Tanzania", Republican News (vol.8 n.48) 9 December 1978, p.10). (See also the quote and photo of Nyeyere in Republican News (vol.7 n.38), 8 October 1977, p.2)

On N.KOrea Kim Il Sung himself declared in the 1980s that "both the Korean people and the Irish people have a bitter past when they were oppressed and maltreated under the colonial rule of the imperialists, and they are still suffering from national division because of the policy of occupation pursued by outside forces." ("Korean Friendship", Ireland's War, issue 24 (October 1987), p.6) Seminars on Juche sponsored by the North Korean regime (for example in London in 1985 or Paris in 1987) similarly raised the Irish question.

[Blue Angel]

given amnesty international was (in part at least) founded by an ex IRA man and very well known republican i am surprised to hear you quote from a report by them wasp.

i dont see why switzerland would be a terribly controversial model from the above list - the swiss have had a fairly stable govt. for hundreds of years now. some of the others maybe but not switzerland.

[Jim]

On N.KOrea Kim Il Sung himself declared in the 1980s that "both the Korean people and the Irish people have a bitter past when they were oppressed and maltreated under the colonial rule of the imperialists, and they are still suffering from national division because of the policy of occupation pursued by outside forces." ("Korean Friendship", Ireland's War, issue 24 (October 1987), p.6) Seminars on Juche sponsored by the North Korean regime (for example in London in 1985 or Paris in 1987) similarly raised the Irish question.

I think hes right there, the thing that makes a difference though is the method of government, NK is resistant to unification while SK isnt. Just because hes a dictator doesnt automatically mean I have to disagree with what he just said, either.

[An Fear Dubh]

Wasn't George Bush in China? By Wasp's logic that makes him a communist! Or at least a supporter of their regime!!

[Wasp]

Well 1989 isn't too far back. Setanta are any of my posts wrong concerning sinn fein, Adams and co?

Setanta I wrote 'very few would know for example that Sinn Fein had developed for almost a decade a fascination with Julius Nyerere's regime in Tanzania.' Nowhere does it say recently, the words are for almost a decade.

BA the reason I quoted from amnesty is because republicans use them at times in debates to support there points. Funny thing is I don't see many having much to say on this report. Is it because it breaks the dream mould of their opinion of Cuba and Che? Is amnesty only considered when it backs republican opinion.

AFD as usual you come out with a great response. Keep up the good work as you do make me smile and sometimes laugh. Good man yourself.

[Jim]

Amnesty doesnt back republican opinion.

[Wasp]

jim said:

Amnesty doesnt back republican opinion.

That was not my words Jim, I said republicans use amnesty to try and back their points.

Anyway do you dismiss amnestys report on Cuba? If you do then why?

[Jim]

I reject some parts of it. Amnesty international like to make reports and bring things to light then do nothing about it. The US is full of double standards. It embargos Cuba then backs up military coups all over south America, it threatens legitimate leaders and backs up more military coups with no legitimacy, then has the cheek to say it fights for freedom and democracy. Most of the "counter-revolutinaries" in Cuba are backed up by the US as well, usually in Florida.

Every country has undesirable prisons and prisoners who probably shouldnt be there, the UK has them, the US has them on the very corner of the Cuban island itself (some of which were given to the US by the UK and have had british papers like the independant campaign for their freedom).