Anger at loyalist grave memorial

[Blue Angel]

In reverse order, they beat themselves up - come on now WASP that is even worse than the joking suggestion BH made about falling down stairs in bungalows. The IRA may have been making the same mistakes in Ireland for 30 years but the British security forces have been making them for several hundred years. Security forces kicking ANY suspect for ANY crime is wrong. If you wish to create the conditions for peope to feel that they are under foreign occupation this is a good way to do so.

[Blue Angel]

let us look at another point of yours WASP you contend that the IRA let the Birmingham six rot in jail - let us look at Guildford four - the IRA men arrested for the Balcombe street siege instructed their lawyers to point out that the Guildford four were innocent and that they were the guilty the parties. What happened, it was ignored as not unsurprisingly admitting the truth would have meant admitting confessions were obtained using unsafe evidence and left red faces all round in the British establishment.

[Wasp]

blueangel said:

let us look at another point of yours WASP you contend that the IRA let the Birmingham six rot in jail - let us look at Guildford four - the IRA men arrested for the Balcombe street siege instructed their lawyers to point out that the Guildford four were innocent and that they were the guilty the parties. What happened, it was ignored as not unsurprisingly admitting the truth would have meant admitting confessions were obtained using unsafe evidence and left red faces all round in the British establishment.

Well those involved should have acted immediately. But as you know the law is very very complicated. Maybe they thought they were only saying that and adopting a new tactic. How often has the ira said the wrong person is in jail?

To do with the beating up or hitting someone I made a valid point that ira mebers arrested did do so on occasion. You say the British has been doing wrong for few hundred years, well do you live in centuries and blame Britain for its wrong doings or do you live in modern times and take Britain and judge it now?? Few hundred years ago the world was a very different place and no country can claim a halo. Your own country that you claim to be part of is R.O.I and they are barely 100 years old and look at its history and crimes. British gov. has been around alot longer than the R.O.I government so obviously it has wrongdoings, but the R.O.I is alot younger and has plenty on its own doorstep.

Do I blame the Irish gov. now or Irish people now for any wrongdoing 100 years ago?

[Wasp]

BTW I did not say they beat themselves up, I said maybe and maybe not. I did not accuse them of this, but I would not rule it out either.

[Blue Angel]

the ROI is 58 years as it was established in 1949, the Irish free state which preceded it was founded in 1921 which would make an 'independent' ireland 86 years old depending on your definition. You could not blame the Irish govt. 100 years ago for anything as there was not one in existence. It is not a question of judging Britain it is point that Britain and various govts. never seem to learn from experience with regards to Ireland a point Britain's own more intelligent politicians have made.

[Blue Angel]

1987 the Home Office issued a memorandum, recognizing that it was unlikely the Four were terrorists but that this would not be sufficient evidence for appeal. - in reference to the guildford four.

[Jim]

I dont blame anyone but the politicians of that day for what the government did.

do I blame churchill for being a twat? yes, very much so, likewise for lloyd george for being a poor leader that couldnt stand up to his counter parts. The british government made a lot of mistakes 100 years ago and theyre repeating those mistakes over and over weither its in the old empire, ireland or in iraq.

[Wasp]

Well ba I am sure you could write a list of mistakes Britain has made along with a list that Ireland has made. No country or government are perfect. Do you think it would be fair to say that mainly Catholic countries and socialist/marxist/communist countries have lived or are living under oppression from one dictatorship or another?

For all Britains mistakes as in various governments etc I for one am glad that I am British especially concerning religious freedom and democracy.

[Jim]

No more oppression for most than under capitalist "liberal" countries for the most part to be honest, the big difference is in how we hear about it. Socialist countries didnt make a secret out of their activies so it became widespread, along with american xenophobia.

Whereas other countries like britain and america spin stories as much as possible, so when we hear of it, we're "shocked".

It took the british about 80 years to bring democracy to northern ireland. Untill the first election of the GFA, democracy didnt exist, only a farse democracy that was heavily controlled by the governing party. In other words northern ireland from 1922 to 1998 was a capitalist one party state.

[Wasp]

How was it not a democracy? Leave aside gerrymandering, after that had stopped how was it not a democracy?

Also your comments on other countries sounds like spin mate. We are shocked because we have saw with our own eyes what is happening in other countries not because of what any government tells us. Locals accounts of what they have been through, our own news and foreign media (al jazeer is excellent) etc shows us first hand what is happening not our governments.

What about N.Korea for example?

[Jim]

What do you mean? Gerrmandering effectively ended when Stormont was abolished by London and we came under direct rule, ruld by MPs that we didnt elect, from parties that didnt stand in Northern Ireland, some parties didnt even let people from NI join them because they had "sister" parties in the north i.e NI Labour/SDLP and the UUP.

My comments are not a spin. I'll use some examples. The Soviet Union proclaimed to be a marxist country and a socialist country (it was neither in practise) and publically announced internings of its citizens under the name of anti-counter-revolutionary action. Not as many people where shocked by it in Russia or in the West, it just happened, it was a fact. Fast foward to today and we have the most powerful nation in the world (USA) flying enemy combatants around the world and declaring that they arent under the protection of the 4th Geneva convention meaning it was "legitimate" to brutally torture them, but this was not in the open, it took a soldier to release mobile phone pictures to the world.

North Korea is a closed border country, nothing gets in or out, a lot of what is going on is exaggerated, not happening, or under-estimated, no one really knows whats going on in there, its not a community country its not a socialist country and its not a marxist country.

If you want to see socialism in action take a look at Cuba, best education and health in the world and constantly fighting American embargos to survive, look at Hugo Chavez in Venezuela even putting it to his foreign policy that any oil exported to Britain would go cheaply to working class London homes and not major corporations. While the US was going to war over "democracy and freedom" in Iraq it was backing a coup to oust a democratically elected President (Chavez) in Venezuela and implant a military regime.

[Wasp]

Gerrmandering effectively ended when Stormont was abolished by London and we came under direct rule, ruld by MPs that we didnt elect, from parties that didnt stand in Northern Ireland, some parties didnt even let people from NI join them because they had "sister" parties in the north i.e NI Labour/SDLP and the UUP.

Gerrymandering did not just affect Catholics. After Stormont was abolished we all had the choice to vote. We could all elect our own mp's, councillors etc, that is democracy.

My comments are not a spin. I'll use some examples. The Soviet Union proclaimed to be a marxist country and a socialist country (it was neither in practise) and publically announced internings of its citizens under the name of anti-counter-revolutionary action. Not as many people where shocked by it in Russia or in the West, it just happened, it was a fact. Fast foward to today and we have the most powerful nation in the world (USA) flying enemy combatants around the world and declaring that they arent under the protection of the 4th Geneva convention meaning it was "legitimate" to brutally torture them, but this was not in the open, it took a soldier to release mobile phone pictures to the world.

The pictures were certainly sjhocking but America is under close scrutiny to do with prisoners and they have outside observers. These prisoners have alot more rights under the Americans than the countries they came from. But abuse like that is horribly wrong.

North Korea is a closed border country, nothing gets in or out, a lot of what is going on is exaggerated, not happening, or under-estimated, no one really knows whats going on in there, its not a community country its not a socialist country and its not a marxist country.

Sinn fein member can get in, thye can meet up with N.Korean politiocans. Look at how N.Korea is dealing with building bridges with south KOREA. Alot of things are known and it isn't just coming from various government intelligence agencies. It speaks volumes that you claim nothing gets in or out so that shows how cosy life must be their under that regime. Didn't a member of sinn fein write a book or pamphlet supporting the regimes policies?

If you want to see socialism in action take a look at Cuba, best education and health in the world and constantly fighting American embargos to survive

,

Don't want to see anymore, if that is socialism in action then forget it.

look at Hugo Chavez in Venezuela even putting it to his foreign policy that any oil exported to Britain would go cheaply to working class London homes and not major corporations.

Sounds good but near impossible to carry out.

While the US was going to war over "democracy and freedom" in Iraq it was backing a coup to oust a democratically elected President (Chavez) in Venezuela and implant a military regime.

Ah yes this is the democratic president who shut down a tv station because it spoke out against him and I believe shut down a newspaper. Nice guy, nice dictator.

[Jim]

Doesnt matter if it didnt just effect catholics, it doesnt make it any more democratic. What could we elect MPs to do? MPs from Northern Ireland played no role in Government, over parliament proceedings, the only thing they could do was give a speech when required and it was usually falling on deaf ears. Councils were stripped of power, they give out grants to community projects and take away your bin. Direct rule was not democracy in any way shape or form.

Weither America is under close scrutney or not doesnt actually matter, they're still detaining and torturing men in Guantanamo. Whos going to stop them? They have no rights, whatsoever.

Wasp I've done a fair amount of reading on North Korea. They do let people in but its all for show, the streets are empty, the buildings are empty, "tourists" are watched by the police constantly and politicians know how to play the game with foreigners. Bridge building with South Korea doesnt mean much because they only allow access to some parts of the country that is heavy regulated, Pyongyang is a ghost town in the parts where South koreans are allowed to visit and the borders are heavily controlled by soldiers ordered to shoot anyone illegally crossing the border from either side, North and South korea are still technically at war and have soldiers all over the place on the border. I havent said anything about a cosy lifestyle, i'm very much anti-north korea when it comes to their government.

What do you mean forget it? Whats bad about good health and education? Would you rather not have it? Nothing impossible about what those countries are doing, the only reason they come under hardship is because their closest big nation wont let them trade with the rest of the world.

Yes, it was, a tv station that was supporting a violent military coup and making outright lies that where all proven to be wrong, every single one of them. Nothing dictatorish about him he follows and uses an election system and can be kicked out of office next election if the people dont want him, clearly thats not the case because he keeps winning again and again and had huge support when sections of the military supported him and not the coup leaders in the end.

[Wasp]

Doesnt matter if it didnt just effect catholics, it doesnt make it any more democratic. What could we elect MPs to do? MPs from Northern Ireland played no role in Government, over parliament proceedings, the only thing they could do was give a speech when required and it was usually falling on deaf ears. Councils were stripped of power, they give out grants to community projects and take away your bin. Direct rule was not democracy in any way shape or form.

This was the same for Scotland and Wales was it not? Direct rule was certainly democratic, perhaps not the best choice but it was democratic. Also various parties from here sided with either tory or labour and they did carry some weight. Westminster was the British government and N.I is British so I never had any problem with direct rule, although I prefer Stormont. But this does not mean it was not democratic because it was.

Weither America is under close scrutney or not doesnt actually matter, they're still detaining and torturing men in Guantanamo. Whos going to stop them? They have no rights, whatsoever.

It does matter because they have to account for all mistakes and the way they dealt with any soldier involved was fair enough.

Wasp I've done a fair amount of reading on North Korea. They do let people in but its all for show, the streets are empty, the buildings are empty, "tourists" are watched by the police constantly and politicians know how to play the game with foreigners. Bridge building with South Korea doesnt mean much because they only allow access to some parts of the country that is heavy regulated, Pyongyang is a ghost town in the parts where South koreans are allowed to visit and the borders are heavily controlled by soldiers ordered to shoot anyone illegally crossing the border from either side, North and South korea are still technically at war and have soldiers all over the place on the border. I havent said anything about a cosy lifestyle, i'm very much anti-north korea when it comes to their government.

Yes what is going on there is very sad where people have not saw there loved ones for years. That regime needs to be changed ASAP. Take Gerry MacLochlainn he wrote a booklet entitled "The Irish Republican and Juche Conception of National Self-Dignity are One".

In 1986, the Sinn Fein Foreign Affairs Bureau sent a message of solidarity to the North Korean regime. The message, signed by Sile ni Dhara, stated clearly: "We offer our support to the Workers' Party of Korea in its fight for the establishment of the Democratic Confederated Republic of Korea." ("Sinn Fein Letter to Korea," Ireland's War, issue 18 (June 1986) p.7). Also, during a visit to Scandinavian countries in 1987, Gerry Adams attended a reception at the embassy of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea on the occasion of the 75th birthday of Kim Il Sung. Eye raising stuff.

What do you mean forget it? Whats bad about good health and education? Would you rather not have it?

There is nothing bad about that, nothing at all.

Nothing impossible about what those countries are doing, the only reason they come under hardship is because their closest big nation wont let them trade with the rest of the world.

Now why did they offer the poor in Londond cheap oil? Although we have our own problems with povert there are many countries alot worse off so why not see the oil at a better price and help those in need in those countries. Also he could have picked any major town or city up north where people are in need. IMO he vchose London as a dig at the British government.

As for Castro he denies free speech, political opposition, and freedom of religion. He has wrecked Cuba's economy, and has killed 70,000 people so far, by executions, camps, and the deaths of refugees (boat people) trying to escape. It hasn't held an election as far as I know since 1948.

Take Che Guvera, I beleive sinn fein are taking part in commemorating him. He was "Chief executioner for the Castro regime, responsible for the murder of thousands".

[Wasp]

Here's a bit more for you. PLEASE NOTE THE PAGE REFERENCES ETC.

The main link between Sinn Fein and North Korea is Gerry MacLochlainn. The former Sinn Fein organiser in Wales was released from Maidstone Prison in November 1983 after serving two and a half years of a sentence for conspiracy to cause explosions; before becoming the main representative of Sinn Fein in Great Britain. More recently, he has been a Sinn Fein appointed councillor in Derry and Mitchell McLaughlin's constituency manager. MacLochlainn came into contact with circles on Britain that were sympathetic to the North Korean regime and its official ideology known as Juche; such as the GIFAC and Harpal Brar's Indian Workers Association (Harpal Brar is now president of the Stalin Society). Sinn Fein developed friendly relations with those circles.

Also, during a visit to Scandinavian countries in 1987, Gerry Adams attended a reception at the embassy of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea on the occasion of the 75th birthday of Kim Il Sung. ("Gerry Adams visits Scandinavia", Ireland's War, issue 23 (July 1987), p.7) In 1989, an official Sinn Fein delegation including Gerry MacLochlainn, Sheena Campbell (later murdered in 1992 by loyalists) and John Doyle attended the World Youth Festival in Pyongyang (cfr "Sinn Fein Delegation at World Youth Festival", An Phoblacht-Republican News, (vol.11 number 26), 29 June 1989 p.14).

The fact that Sinn Fein can switch from North Korea or Cuba to the White House or be at ease simultaneously in both is an indication of a certain opportunism, even if it is disguised as pragmatism. It shows that the foreign policies of Sinn Fein are intended to appear all things to all people. Sinn Fein will adopt "anti-imperialist" rhetoric on one occasion, and "conflict resolution" approach on another. It is all a matter rhetoric, not of ideological coherence.

And some more.

If the general public is aware that Irish Republicans back the Basque struggle, very few would know for example that Sinn Fein had developed for almost a decade a fascination with Julius Nyerere's regime in Tanzania.

On Che and Cuba why is it that many ignore the killing and persecution of homosexuals? "Che was an enemy of freedom, and yet he has been erected into a symbol of freedom. He helped establish an unjust social system in Cuba and has been erected into a symbol of social justice. He stood for the ancient rigidities of Latin-American thought, in a Marxist-Leninist version, and he has been celebrated as a free-thinker and a rebel."

His family were at an Islamic terrorist conference in Iran. One speaker claimed Guevara was "a truly religious man who believed in God and hated communism and the Soviet Union. BUT Guevara's daughter, forced to wear the hijab, horrifies them by disputing this claim about Guevara: "My father never mentioned God. He never met God." Suddenly she finds herself escorted from the hall, losing her VIP status, and having to leave Iran in a hurry. Hilarious stuff.

Oh and here is a link to amnesty's report on the great Cuba. Please note they haven't been allowed back since

web.amnesty.org/report2005/cub-summary-eng