Anger at loyalist grave memorial

[Blue Angel]

not really wasp - you are claiming that a major world govt. can use torture and that its not a problem as an organisation you see as a 'terrorist one' does.

[Jim]

wasp said:

Jim why can't you answer my points which I already have raised. This is typical of republicans and no offence intended to you Jim either. But when republicans greet and gurn about the British, and it is pointed out what there own organisation done that they support then they come back with questions and ignore the points raised but keep asking Unionists such as myself questions to do with the British, Total hypocricy.

I done no such thing I raised valid points, why did the british authorities beat confessions out of people who clearly didnt do the bombing? it was so obvious that when the courts finally did look at the proper evidence they could say nothing against it and ordered their release. I'm against that bomb and I've said it before because I'm against civilian targets (even if the IRA do claim it was a military one as British soldiers drank there, it wasnt).

I could say the same about you, when you greet and gurn about republicans, you end up making the british government/army look like bloody angels.

[Blue Angel]

When he examined the case some years later, Lord Denning commented that 'apart from those confessions, the police had not sufficient evidence on which to charge, let alone convict the men.'

This been the same geezer quoted above who suppressed the sixes appeal against the police...

[bearhunter]

Emm, how exactly did this become a thread on the Birmingham 6 anyway?

[Blue Angel]

they were resisting arrest i'm sure we'll be told.

[bearhunter]

Aye, fell down the stairs. In a bungalow....

[Blue Angel]

well i shall wait and see what logical rejoinder wasp has to those photos. I would expect something more compelling than, 'you can't criticise it cos the IRA done it to', or are we to assume that WASP puts the British police and the IRA upon an equality given the tone of some of his arguments such as beatings been useful in forcing people to own up to their crimes?

[Wasp]

Well blueangel you are a prime example of a republican hypocrite. You condemn the British for alledgedly beating a confession out of someone and then throwing them in jail when you support an organisation that tortured and beat their own kind for a confession and then executed them. I see you are still avoiding these points and it shows your and others complete double standards.

Condemn the British for alledged beatings but support the ira who tortured and executed their own kind. Republicans say the ira was there army, there justice, there police force etc and were able to fully support them after they carried out horrific murders of there prisoners and the vast majority of them were republicans themselves. Absolutely bewildering and no-one here has come up with anything to address my points which just proves the blatant hypocricy which is rampant amongst republicans.

As for the photos what do you want me to say, did they confess by the time these pics were taken and make there confessions??

Have you any pics of those the ira lifted for questioning? If not I have a few and I will try and post them. Then we will see the difference.

[An Fear Dubh]

Are they from the Sunday World or is it next weeks addition, Wasp??

[Wasp]

IF you disbelieve the sunday world afd then take it up with them. No actually I was thinking taking them out of a fantasy comic or something, just to stay inline with your fantasies.

[Wasp]

The ira have killed more Roman Catholics, more Protestants, more civilians and more foreigners (those not from Northern Ireland) than any other organisation. Now republicans claim they did not want to wage a war against loyalist paramilataries and as afd said they were sometimes like a fly needing swatted when I saId it was funny they met and never really targeted eachother. But The PIRA describes its actions throughout 'The Troubles' as a military campaign waged against the British Army, the RUC, and loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland and Britain.

CATHERINE AND GERARD MAHON: The young couple were shot dead in Belfast in 1985. The IRA said they had worked for British intelligence since his arrest for unpaid fines.

DAMIEN McCRORY: Shot by the IRA aged 20 in 1985. The IRA said he admitted under interrogation to working for the police for 13 months.

FRANK HEGARTY: A Londonderry man, his body was found on a border road in 1986. His eyes had been taped shut.

PATRICK MURRAY: Killed and left in an alley in Belfast, aged 30. His eyes were taped. The IRA said he was in the pay of the RUC.

DAVID McVEIGH: A labourer, married with three children, the Co Armagh man was found on a border road in 1986. He allegedly turned informer after his arrest over an explosion.

CHARLES McILMURRAY: A Belfast taxi-driver, married with two children. The IRA said he turned informer in return for having a drink-driving charge dropped. His body was left on the border.

EAMONN MAGUIRE: The father of two children, his body was found on a border road in 1987. The IRA alleged he had been a Garda informer for eight years, but his family denied this.

ANTHONY McKIERNAN: Married with four children, he was found shot in Belfast in 1988. He had been plied with enough alcohol to kill him.

JOSEPH FENTON: An estate agent found shot in Belfast in 1989. The IRA said he provided them with "safe houses" which were then bugged by the security forces.

JOHN McANULTY: Abducted from a pub near Dundalk in 1989, aged 48, he was beaten and burnt before being shot in the head.

Now wheres the republican condemnation considering you are all quick to condemn people alledgedly 'wrongly' jailed by thr British?

Now here is a really dangeous evil looking person. I await with anticipation the republican response.

img503.imageshack.us/img503/3599/39450613family203hc4.jpg

And another victim

img255.imageshack.us/img255/4561/blood12avv3.jpg

and another evil looking person.

img205.imageshack.us/img205/1389/v2xs9.jpg

And another evil looking couple.

img205.imageshack.us/img205/4284/v56ua9.jpg

And another evil person.

img255.imageshack.us/img255/3141/534907victims1300hr9.jpg

And another

img255.imageshack.us/img255/9868/38827677lilyburns150jj2.jpg


And republicans have a neck on them to complain about the British?? Hypocrites every last one of them.

[An Fear Dubh]

I have never said that war is nice, and that innocent people were not killed. I do not glory in war or my part of it. Nor do I hang my head and ignore it either, I am not ashamed of myself or deny Republican ideals. I suppose like most people I would like to do some things differently but on the whole I would be willing to do the same things all over again.
Unlike you Wasp I am not afraid to stand up and commit to something, and I will not be turned away because hurts. You commit to nothing, you support nothing, you are loyal to no one cause. You tell unfounded stories, you talk rubbish, and all the time pretend you are some sort of Christian. It is people like you that re-enforces my view that religion is one of the problems of society. As far as I am concerned you are a joke, and I enjoy laughing at your see-through arguments.

[Wasp]

About all your reply was worth, you should be on a stage as a stand up comedian.

I am loyal to alot of things especially my family and I would rather be outside trying to earn a living than be locked up letting them fend for themselves.

[Blue Angel]

well at this point the thread should be split in two perhaps. I will take your points on board -yes the IRA killed people it believed were informers, so to have many guerilla organisations in history. That is the ugly squalid reality of war. But a refusal by either side to admit mistakes were made and methods used which were inhumane is not helpful. Certainly the IRA did use torture and punishment beatings and I have no problem saying i think that was wrong and froma pragmatic view not really productive. Torture is the least useful method of extracting information as if you supply enough pain people will say anything to stop it.

But you cannot place yourself on a higher moral ground WASP as your own comments about beatings been useful to get people to talk on occassion suggest you have no problem with some applications of physical force. When the security forces of a state use physical beatings and torture (and the British Army and Police HAVE used these tactics both in Ireland and elsewhere and to believe otherwise would be hopelessly naive) then you are only condemning the use of it by one side.

My support for the IRA is not absolute and never was, I do not romanticise them or the organisation as all been noble heroes. There are actions and methods that have been used that I find distasteful or disturbing. But equally there are methods the British govt. used that are not the hallmark of civilised behaviour. The Birmingham Six case falls down on even a cursory inspection as the men were arrested admist a tide of anti-Irish feeling rampant in the media at the time and the number of people who testified to physcial abuse is too high to just dismiss it casually. To pretend that blind eyes were not turned in this case is foolish (as in many other cases) - whether the right people were caught came a distant second beyond whether a feeling that the evil IRA men had been punished and got their just desserts.

[Wasp]

I will take your points on board -yes the IRA killed people it believed were informers, so to have many guerilla organisations in history. That is the ugly squalid reality of war. But a refusal by either side to admit mistakes were made and methods used which were inhumane is not helpful. Certainly the IRA did use torture and punishment beatings and I have no problem saying i think that was wrong and froma pragmatic view not really productive. Torture is the least useful method of extracting information as if you supply enough pain people will say anything to stop it.

Fair enough blueangel, at least you are trying to address my points.

But you cannot place yourself on a higher moral ground WASP as your own comments about beatings been useful to get people to talk on occassion suggest you have no problem with some applications of physical force.

It is not a case that I am on a higher moral ground, it is simply a case of I find it hypocritical when republicans who support/are involved/are members of the ira greet about wrongful arrests/beatings convictions etc when the ira tortured and mutilated there own to gain confessions. Also I did not say the use of physical force was acceptable to me in gaining a confession. Please show me where I said that.

When the security forces of a state use physical beatings and torture (and the British Army and Police HAVE used these tactics both in Ireland and elsewhere and to believe otherwise would be hopelessly naive) then you are only condemning the use of it by one side.

I condemn anyone being beat to get confessions, but also I could take on republican logic by saying there was no concrete proof so it can't be true in the sameway they do when it concerns them but not their enemies. Take Chesney for example republicans still won't admit his roleeven though it is common knowledge. Again hypocricy. Now if I am being honest I would fully support say a terrorist who committed a horrific carnage killing and maiming people getting a good hiding when they are lifted.

My support for the IRA is not absolute and never was, I do not romanticise them or the organisation as all been noble heroes. There are actions and methods that have been used that I find distasteful or disturbing. But equally there are methods the British govt. used that are not the hallmark of civilised behaviour.

Again fair enough and of course every civilized government has made mistakes all to easily. But the ira kept carrying out the same actions for three decades as part of their campaign. They knew what the result would be each and everytime they carried out those actions.

The Birmingham Six case falls down on even a cursory inspection as the men were arrested admist a tide of anti-Irish feeling rampant in the media at the time and the number of people who testified to physcial abuse is too high to just dismiss it casually. To pretend that blind eyes were not turned in this case is foolish (as in many other cases) - whether the right people were caught came a distant second beyond whether a feeling that the evil IRA men had been punished and got their just desserts.

As I said maybe they were innocent, maybe not. Maybe they beat themselves up like similar ira criminals that were arrested and blamed the securtiy forces as part of their tactic. Maybe beatings were dished out and probably because of the nature of violence that was going on frustrations boiled over. Even security forece members have there breaking point. I cannot put my hand up and say the six were guilty nor can I say they were innocent. But if they were as claimed then the ira happily let them rot in jail.