Welcoming the others

[Wasp]

Hold on WASP, can you not see why some people would have felt a grudge towards Britain? After having been at war with them? You can't see the reason for it?
There was considerable anti-Irish sentiment from Britain, but I can understand completely why they felt that way, even though I don't agree with it. Why can't you do the same?

Of course I understand that, but after 17 years and with Europe at war with the nazis dont you think thesesmall things in comparison could have been put aside?? You never know how much difference that could and would have made between our 2 countries and political opponents on bothsides of the border.

And please, I am still interested in hearing how you would make nationalists feel more welcome in NI? It is the subject of the thread after all!

As I already said people are financially better off with the UK, they will be part of a country with immense and rich history which has probably every culture under the sun living within the UK. Take a look at the average prices for shopping between the 2 countires and bread on the table is probably one of the most important things for people today.

Then there is the fact that woithout republican violence we can live and work together which the majority of us have been doing for decades. We need to examine ourselves and eachother and look at our own mistakes and wrongdoings while also looking at eachothers. We need to establish a true democracy and true equality for all, there has been too much discrimination against both Protestants and Catholics. Natioanlists need not fear our identity and they would and have been entitiled to whatever identity they prefer and just like irish people living on the mainland they would be AND ARE no different than irish people living on the mainland.

[Republic]

Nov 12, 2009 17:25:08 GMT Wasp said:

[

Of course I understand that, but after 17 years and with Europe at war with the nazis dont you think thesesmall things in comparison could have been put aside??

I'm not sure it is correct to call any war a small thing. But yes, I do think Ireland should have fought in ww2. All I said was that I could at least understand the logic of peoples postions back then, including Churchill and the British view of things.

You never know how much difference that could and would have made between our 2 countries and political opponents on bothsides of the border.

I know. It would have been interesting to see if Churchill would have tried to force NI out of the UK. Or if the attitudes of either group changed, when/if they realised they could work together.

As I already said people are financially better off with the UK, they will be part of a country with immense and rich history which has probably every culture under the sun living within the UK. Take a look at the average prices for shopping between the 2 countires and bread on the table is probably one of the most important things for people today.

Ok thanks. I have to say, I think economic arguments don't hold much weight though. Even if I could guarantee you that you would be finacially better off in a united Ireland, I don't think you would take it. Am I right or am I right?

Then there is the fact that woithout republican violence we can live and work together which the majority of us have been doing for decades. We need to examine ourselves and eachother and look at our own mistakes and wrongdoings while also looking at eachothers. We need to establish a true democracy and true equality for all, there has been too much discrimination against both Protestants and Catholics. Natioanlists need not fear our identity and they would and have been entitiled to whatever identity they prefer and just like irish people living on the mainland they would be AND ARE no different than irish people living on the mainland.

The part I have bolded is the really interesting part. I think neither community has been good at admitting its own mistakes.

Regarding your identity commet, how would that work in practical terms? Do things need to change?

[Wasp]

Ok thanks. I have to say, I think economic arguments don't hold much weight though.

What I was actually getting at here was those who currently live in N.I whereby if there was to be a UI then they would be worse off if you understand me.

Even if I could guarantee you that you would be finacially better off in a united Ireland, I don't think you would take it. Am I right or am I right?

There would be a bigger chance of being the next pope. ;D

Regarding your identity commet, how would that work in practical terms? Do things need to change?

Dont understand what you mean?

[Wasp]

Republic hypothetically speaking of course, what if the following was introduced.

1) All those who wished for a UI and classed themselves as Irish were to be tried in irsh courts for whatever offences.

2) They no longer received UK benefits, they would receive the exact benefits that those in the republic receive.

3) The republic pays there housing benefit, medical bills etc

4) Members of the garda would be allowed to take part in joint police patrols and policing in nationalist areas alone, say some border areas, West Belfast and some other areas.

5) The border remains to seperate the 2 countries but those who aspire to a UI may as well be living in a UI because all benefits, health service etc etc would be provided/paid for by the irish government.

[Republic]

Nov 12, 2009 20:13:00 GMT Wasp said:

[
What I was actually getting at here was those who currently live in N.I whereby if there was to be a UI then they would be worse off if you understand me.

Ok but that would be irrelevant to them. Economic factors have no bearing on anyones nationality, you should know this better than most, after years of SF trying to sell you a UI, based on prosperity.

[Republic]

Interesting post. This seems to be moving towards a dual state?

Nov 12, 2009 21:09:09 GMT Wasp said:

Republic hypothetically speaking of course, what if the following was introduced.

1) All those who wished for a UI and classed themselves as Irish were to be tried in irsh courts for whatever offences.

Ok, would they be subject to Irish law instead of UK law? What if they committed an offence under UK law, but it was not an offence under Irish law. It would be difficult to work.

2) They no longer received UK benefits, they would receive the exact benefits that those in the republic receive.

3) The republic pays there housing benefit, medical bills etc

Ok, would the RoI receive taxes from those citizens then? I presume they would - if we pay for them, surely we would receive any positives from it too.

And if the RoI was helping pay for the costs of running NI, then surely the south would have a greater influence in running NI, in formulating policy etc.

4) Members of the garda would be allowed to take part in joint police patrols and policing in nationalist areas alone, say some border areas, West Belfast and some other areas.

Ok, but I think this is unworkable, what if someone comits a crime in a nationalist area, and simply escapes into a unionist one, and vice versa. No one wins, the Gardaí or the PSNI would not be able do their jobs properly.

5) The border remains to seperate the 2 countries but those who aspire to a UI may as well be living in a UI because all benefits, health service etc etc would be provided/paid for by the irish government.

That would effectively erode the border though, because the RoI would have an increased say in the running of NI. The Uk would be giving up some of its responsibilities in NI.

There is more to a UI than just govt services - would these people have access to the Irish education system in NI, for example?

[Wasp]

Nov 14, 2009 9:22:46 GMT Republic said:

Nov 12, 2009 20:13:00 GMT Wasp said:

[
What I was actually getting at here was those who currently live in N.I whereby if there was to be a UI then they would be worse off if you understand me.

Ok but that would be irrelevant to them. Economic factors have no bearing on anyones nationality, you should know this better than most, after years of SF trying to sell you a UI, based on prosperity.

The economic factor was not my point, my point was to try and give them as much as they would get if they were in a UI and by that I dont mean benefits, I mean everything possible.

[Wasp]

Ok, would they be subject to Irish law instead of UK law? What if they committed an offence under UK law, but it was not an offence under Irish law. It would be difficult to work.

I think we have alot of similar laws and perhaps certain laws would be too hard to impliment, but the basics would be that they would be tried in an irish court and go through irish courts for all legal processes where irish judges sit in courts here for those who aspire to a UI and legal aid etc is paid by the irish government.

Ok, would the RoI receive taxes from those citizens then? I presume they would - if we pay for them, surely we would receive any positives from it too.

That would have to be the case and the irsh governemnt would have to pay for the maintenance of their houses etc as well as paying housing benefit. It would probably end up though like marking territory like irish signs and painted kerbs.

And if the RoI was helping pay for the costs of running NI, then surely the south would have a greater influence in running NI, in formulating policy etc.

No not at all, the key here is that those who aspire to a UI can more or less live as though they were in a UI. The irish governemnt would only be concerned with those with those aspirations. But concerning housing and health then there would have to be joint bodies dealing with those to make sure they run efficiently.

Ok, but I think this is unworkable, what if someone comits a crime in a nationalist area, and simply escapes into a unionist one, and vice versa. No one wins, the Gardaí or the PSNI would not be able do their jobs properly.

Wouldnt make a difference, what about mixed areas where out of 50 houses 25 are Unionist and 25 Nationalist?? Gardai would only be able to take part in joint patrols in certain areas not all areas and it doesnt matter who commits the crime or where policing would be the same. The gardai would not be patrolling on their own and the psni would not be patrolling on their own in these areas either, so for me it is workable.

That would effectively erode the border though, because the RoI would have an increased say in the running of NI. The Uk would be giving up some of its responsibilities in NI.

I disagree, the republic would be responsible financially, medically etc to those who wish for a UI and that would be all. They would not control any area just responsible for peoples day to day needs such as housing and maintenance etc.

There is more to a UI than just govt services - would these people have access to the Irish education system in NI, for example?

I would assume the irish government would take over catholic schools here, finance and maintain them.