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Post by leeside on Nov 3, 2009 16:59:55 GMT
What a ridiculously uninformed comment to make!!
First of all, Ireland was part of the UK when WW1 broke out so how could it have been neutral? Also, you are aware of the hundreds of thousands of Irishmen who fought on the British side during that war, aren't you? In fact statistically more people from the catholic/nationalist side in Ireland fought than their protestant/unionist counterparts in the most pointless waste of human life in history. I can see the stupidity in fighting on the British side in that war but not the cowardice. Please point out the cowardice of the Irish response you speak of as I don't see it.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 3, 2009 18:14:50 GMT
Oh really?? My mistake. I certainly am, infact on this very forum I defended those Irishmen against insulting comments made about them. Statistically means nothing to me on this, the fact remains many Irishmen gave their lives to fight for the British alongside their Protestant neighbours, I have never ever tried to say or suggest different. I was referring to the cowardly irish government not the irish people, thought that was obvious.  Ireland was cowardly, they let many other nations do the dirty work. BUT many in Ireland answered Britains call, the allies call and fought facism unlike their useless governement or ira supporters who would have welcomed the nazis to these shores. |
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Post by Wasp on Nov 3, 2009 21:50:48 GMT
A study by the University of Edinburgh has found over 3,600 soldiers from the south of Ireland died on active service during World War II. Their names join those of nearly 3,900 fallen soldiers from Northern Ireland on a roll of honour, unveiled at Trinity College Dublin. In the British army alone, up to 100,000 people from the island of Ireland served during the war, in spite of the Irish Free State's neutrality. The role of soldiers from Northern Ireland is well-known, but it was a different story for war veterans in the south coming home to a country whose leader Eamon de Valera had paid his respects to the German representative after Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler died.......................... After the war, Irishmen were cold-shouldered by a de Valera-led government that did not see why they should qualify for state welfare payments when they came home from fighting for a foreign power.
Ms McEwen said that even now, some veterans feel they can't talk freely about their role in the war.
"We have a WWII veteran who'd love to come to the unveiling, but he said he's not coming because he's fearful of reprisals," she said.
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Post by leeside on Nov 4, 2009 1:31:47 GMT
I was referring to the sweeping bullshit statement that you made about the Irish response in WW1.
If you were so aware as you claim then why did you make such an ignorant comment?
Regards WW2, thats a completely different story. There were plenty of valid reasons why Ireland as a nation didnt get involved at the time. However, i will agree that in hindsight, especially after the true horror of the nazi regime was exposed, Ireland, as a nation, should have fought against those nazi bastards.
Unlike WW1.. The war against Hitler was a just and right war. The way Irish soldiers were treated or shunned after they returned was disgraceful. A sorry episode in Irish history indeed.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 4, 2009 16:03:49 GMT
As I said it was a mistake to put them together, what I should have added was that in both world wars those brave Irishmen who fought were not recognized by their own country and weren't for many many years. Take Armagh for example which is in N.Ireland, the nationalist controlled council in the 20's refused to build a rememberance monument like most other towns naming its fallen. The nationalist politics couldnt have the fact that 60% of the fallen were from nationalist backgrounds being publisized and praised. Only now has there been agreement to list names in the roll of honour, taking the example of this it is hardly surprizing that Ireland trampled over the truth about the brave men who fought and died ignoring their well deserved recognition.
Ireland would have been well aware of the true horrors of the nazi regime.
Well there is no need for me to say anymore on this, you have fully acknowledged the disgraceful treatment of those brave men. There is a song by the Dubliners I am sure you have heard called waltzing matilda which could be about any of the allied troops in any of the 2 wars.
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Post by Republic on Nov 4, 2009 16:19:32 GMT
[ Ireland would have been well aware of the true horrors of the nazi regime. Irelands neutrality in ww2 was understandable at the time. If you look at the previous 20 years, it was very understandable. With hindsight, not so much, but they weren't opertaing with that benefit. |
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Post by Blue Angel on Nov 4, 2009 16:34:06 GMT
I'm quite happy to acknowledge the sacrifice of soldiers in WW1 and WW2 - but for me I'd take the idea of my father whose suggestion was a memorial to all soldiers from Ireland who have died fighting, that would include members of the old IRA, 1798, 1916 etc. as much as those who fought for Crown forces in WW1 and WW2 and earlier wars.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 4, 2009 17:56:28 GMT
Irish diplomats travelled to London to seek British help but made the bizarre decision to only request military help once German forces had actually landed on Irish soil........
At May 23 and 24 London meetings, Joseph Walshe, secretary of the Department of External Affairs and Colonel Liam Archer, then head of Irish Army intelligence, blocked a British request to station forces in Ireland in advance of a possible invasion.
Walshe said there would be no public support for such a move but once it "became apparent to the Irish people that an act of aggression had taken place against Ireland the whole attitude of the Irish people would change and they would gladly welcome support from British troops".
Then;
Ireland's president during World War II offered condolences to Germany over the 1945 death of Adolf Hitler, newly declassified government records show.
Historians had believed that Irish Prime Minister Eamon de Valera was the only leader to convey official condolences to Eduard Hempel, the top German envoy in Ireland, but PRESIDENT Douglas Hyde offered condolences to Nazi Germany's representative in Dublin over the death of Hitler. Strange thing to do dont you think considering he would have known fine well the horrors of the nazi regime with no worries about being invaded??
De Valera's gesture - unique among leaders of neutral nations in the final weeks of World War II - was criticised worldwide.
The presidential protocol record for 1938-1957, made public this week, shed new light on the embarrassing episode and the decision to maintain cordial relations with the Nazis even after news of the Holocaust emerged.
The new document confirmed that President Hyde visited Hempel on May 3, 1945, a day after Ireland received reports of Hitler's death.
It says Hyde - who served as Head of State from 1938 to 1945, and died in 1949 - visited Hempel at the diplomat's home in Dun Laoghaire.
De Valera also refused to allow Britain or the United States to use strategic Irish ports for protecting Atlantic convoys from attacks by German U-boat submarines, a policy that cost thousands of Allied seamen's lives.
In his May 1945 victory speech, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill condemned de Valera's neutrality. Churchill said Britain had considered laying "a violent hand" on neutral Ireland to seize its ports, but avoided this thanks to the crucial support of Northern Ireland, which remained part of the United Kingdom when the island was partitioned in 1921.
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Post by Blue Angel on Nov 4, 2009 18:41:33 GMT
It doesn't tell you De Valera has his name on the plaque remembering the 'Righteous amongst the nations' in Israel or that he deliberately overruled govt. advice trying to stop Jewish children entering the country. As Dev said if Britain had laid a violent hand on Ireland to seize the ports it would have been no better than Nazi Germany itself, how was Dev meant to remain neutral if he let foreign warships use Irish ports? That would have been akin to declaring war.
And the British did sell and supply the Irish armed forces with a fair quantity of odds and sods during WW2, including Hurricane fighter planes, somewhere around 120 armoured cars and other bits and pieces.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 4, 2009 21:00:51 GMT
It doesnt tell you that most Irish politicians are anti-Israel, nor does it say that Dev opposed the British using there own territory in N.I to have US bases based, nor does it say how Devs Ireland became a safe haven for fugitive Nazis etc etc. Is it true Charles Haughey burnt a Union Jack on VE-Day in 1945 to show his disgust at the liberation of Europe??? It doesn't even mention the various gaa clubs named after nazi collaborators nor does it mention the Jewish refugees who were refused asylum while nazi monsters were provided with a safe haven.
That aside people like Paddy Finucane, who was an Irish Royal Air Force fighter pilot. He was a high scoring Second World War flying ace, and he was the RAF's youngest Wing Commander in its history are the real heroes along with the thousands of other Irishmen. The ira who supported the nazis were the cowards of cowards along with the irish governement not to far behind them. In fact would I be correct in saying the only Irishmen who actually fought for the Nazis were the IRA republicans.
I would have opposed this but if England was going to be invaded from Ireland or the threat of it was very real then under those circumstances Britain would have been right to protect herself from nazi invasion.
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Post by leeside on Nov 4, 2009 23:39:29 GMT
Please elaborate. What would they have known and at what time?
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Post by leeside on Nov 5, 2009 0:27:37 GMT
Where do you get this shit from? He burned the union jack outside Trinity on VE day in response to loyalist Trinity students burning the Tri-Colour. Nothing to do with 'his disgust at the liberation of Europe'. You're so melodramatic its ridiculous.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 17:24:55 GMT
Ah setanta come on, you have to be able to take flak if you can give it and you have to understand that things cannot be brushed under the carpet to suit either side, these things have to be talked about and dealt with.
I respect your decision to quit but I and I am sure everyone else would prefer you to stay.
Hope its not the posts I put up which shattered your dreams about the ira?? ;D ;D Only jesting.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 17:28:49 GMT
Where do you get this shit from? He burned the union jack outside Trinity on VE day in response to loyalist Trinity students burning the Tri-Colour. Nothing to do with 'his disgust at the liberation of Europe'. You're so melodramatic its ridiculous. Accuse me of what you want but I got it from this guy; My great-great-grandfather was a Home Rule MP and Free State Senator. My great-grandfather was a Home Rule MP and Free State TD. My grandfather took part in an armed insurrection against the state in 1916. RIC Special Branch had a long file on him. My other grandfather took part in the allied capture of Iraq in 1917, and was then a colonial administrator in Iraq, probably in Hilla province. My granduncle was the first Prime Minister of Ireland in 1922. His son became Prime Minister of Ireland in 1973. Hardly a loyalist now is he?? |
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Post by Blue Angel on Nov 5, 2009 17:39:08 GMT
Just because he isn't a loyalist doesn't mean he is absolutely on the same page politicaly as Haughey, in your desire to make your point you are ignoring the fierce and bitter rivalries between oppossing Irish political parties. Your source is a a grandnephew of WT Cosgrave from the sound of things, who was a Fine Gael politican - Charlie was Fianna Fail. Personally I have no love for Haughey who I regarded as a prime example of the brown envelope culture but you have to consider the source when considering the comments.
The boys own version of WW2 in which all the Allies set out to rescue the poor, beleagured Jews is quite frankly a lot of shite. The fact the death camps were destroyed as the war progressed is something to be applauded but the fate of the Jews was not a primary concern of Churchill or Roosevelt, we didn't see them rushing of to the Soviet Union either before or after WW2 when millions of Jewish people were been exterminated there.
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