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Post by Jim on Oct 29, 2009 19:58:36 GMT
On the national questions?
What could possibly persuade me to the idea that the union is in my favour would be the abolishment of the monarchy and creating a british republic; but i wont find many unionists in agreement with that, some are, most arent. It has stronger support in England and Scotland than in NI.
As far as compromising on a united Ireland I agree with some points unionists put forward if it is going to happen. I have no interest in going straight under Fianna Fail, I didnt vote for them and never would. I'd have no problems compromising on a UI with an autonomous region being Northern Ireland, with its own assembly and executive, it would require a new country, not just an expansion of the republic of ireland. I'd also have no problems with people in NI being eligable for British passports however I would be against direct interfernce from the British Government on anything consitutional. Its pretty obvious that in any future UI the British government will have some sort of diplomatic say in what goes on, however I would prefer for us to decide these things, not a foreign Government we have no say in electing. I would not be willing to compromise on political vetos by any side or by Fianna Fail.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 29, 2009 21:09:56 GMT
The biggest problem republicans have is there constant denial of what happened, twisting events, far fetched excuses and lies for reasons for certain atrocities, failure to condemn the most horrific attacks yet at the sametime complain about the smallest of things that have upset them etc etc etc. The list is endless.
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Post by Jim on Oct 29, 2009 21:28:11 GMT
Wasp from reading your latest posts you do much of the above too.
Constant and automatic denial of anything said by Republicans to be true, cherrypicking facts, ignoring the role of the British state in murder.
So rather than trying to yet again score points against us, what are the compromises you would be willing to conceed for true peace? If they exist.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 29, 2009 22:50:41 GMT
Jim I am big enough to admit any wrongdoing by anyone regardless of who they are or what side they belong to. I will not be swalled up however in the myths, half truths and wild exaggerations from those within the republican community. The same people who fully endorsed women being dragged onto the streets to be humiliated, mothers dragged from their homes to be executed, fathers dragged from their beds to be executed infront of their children, bomb after bomb which caused thousands of job losses and much needed investment to the working classes here while at the sametime these people complained at lack of jobs, lack of investment, deprived areas etc etc etc. Total hypocrites who spew verbal shite with almost every word and they wouldnt know the truth if it hit them on the face.
You will Know I set you aside along with a few others that I could deal with, and the main reason is that you and these others have been big enough to condemn some if not all ira violence outright. That is proof in itself the stumbling blocks that lie between my community and yours. When a young catholic girl was brutally murdered I was sickened to the stomach just like most other normal people. It didnt matter who killed her the fact she was killed and how she was killed was one of the most cowardly and sickening acts to darken Ulster's doorstep. She was killed by so called loyalists and my reaction was the exact same if it had been a bunch of republicans or simply thugs. Many republicans including members here cannot condemn such actions by the ira yet they want my community to bend over backwards, give up much of our culture, give in to their demands etc yet they reufse to condemn such cowardly acts. Take setanta's stomach churning answers on another thread and to think this is the kind of person that we are meant to willingly find accomodation with and lets not forget these same people are the very same people who endorsed the mindless sectarian onslaught against my community. So it is nothing to do with point scoring, the posts are here for all to see.
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Post by Republic on Oct 30, 2009 0:24:07 GMT
Thanks guys, interesting answers.
WASP, I will put it to you this way, what do you think unionists can do (or are willing to do) to make nationalists feel happier in the UK?
Jim I was intirgued by your answer. Setanta would you agree with Jims views that it would be neccessary to have a formal recognition of Britains role in a UI?
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Post by Jim on Oct 30, 2009 4:32:15 GMT
It depends what role. By role, I'm talking in a similar way the ROI has its current role in NI.
Lets remember that we're all citizens of the European Union, so there will always be very close contact with Westminster. I personally believe Scotland will leave the union before NI will. When that happens, England and wales will retain their "union" as Wales is officially and legally annexed by England. England will have no reason to keep ties to Northern Ireland, especially when the majority of unionists have a closer affinity to Scotland than they do with England and visa versa. I have an affinity with Scotland and I'm not even a unionist!
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Post by Blue Angel on Oct 30, 2009 12:51:35 GMT
If you saw my earlier posts on nuclear power in the thread you can see why I will not support it, Windscale, Sellafield or whatever you want to call it is an aging power station built on a pattern that is obsolete and that has failed catastrophically in the past. The Irish govt. wanted to build a nuclear power station themselves at one point - thank God nothing came of that.
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Post by Jim on Oct 30, 2009 16:04:09 GMT
Jim I am big enough to admit any wrongdoing by anyone regardless of who they are or what side they belong to. I will not be swalled up however in the myths, half truths and wild exaggerations from those within the republican community. The same people who fully endorsed women being dragged onto the streets to be humiliated, mothers dragged from their homes to be executed, fathers dragged from their beds to be executed infront of their children, bomb after bomb which caused thousands of job losses and much needed investment to the working classes here while at the sametime these people complained at lack of jobs, lack of investment, deprived areas etc etc etc. Total hypocrites who spew verbal shite with almost every word and they wouldnt know the truth if it hit them on the face. You will Know I set you aside along with a few others that I could deal with, and the main reason is that you and these others have been big enough to condemn some if not all ira violence outright. That is proof in itself the stumbling blocks that lie between my community and yours. When a young catholic girl was brutally murdered I was sickened to the stomach just like most other normal people. It didnt matter who killed her the fact she was killed and how she was killed was one of the most cowardly and sickening acts to darken Ulster's doorstep. She was killed by so called loyalists and my reaction was the exact same if it had been a bunch of republicans or simply thugs. Many republicans including members here cannot condemn such actions by the ira yet they want my community to bend over backwards, give up much of our culture, give in to their demands etc yet they reufse to condemn such cowardly acts. Take setanta's stomach churning answers on another thread and to think this is the kind of person that we are meant to willingly find accomodation with and lets not forget these same people are the very same people who endorsed the mindless sectarian onslaught against my community. So it is nothing to do with point scoring, the posts are here for all to see. We know fine well what the IRA did. It wears a bit thin after 1000 posts on it even when the topic has nothing to do with it. What republicans "condone" publically is not always what they condone privately, you would be surprised at some of the arguments going on in republican circles! You talk about children being killed etc as if the IRA were the only ones doing it, you consistently deny the role of the RUC and British army. |
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Post by Wasp on Oct 30, 2009 17:46:08 GMT
Jim once again you are posting with the aim of brushing things under the carpet, I have been asjed a question and I answered my question showing the major stumbling blocks that will prevent proper movement. I have never denied the role of the security forces, if it wanst for their role then many many more people from bothsides would be dead.
Now what are these arguements going on in republican circles, how do you know about them and do you have any links to back this up.
Republic, financially people are better off within the UK, this has alsways been the case apart from maybe the celtic tiger period. The UK is right up there with other major countries when it comes to financial decisions, problems with rogue nations or whatever etc etc and the UK is a major world player in many things. While the UK has had many rpoblems it certainly hasnt had the recent violent history that the republic has had within itself, then there is the major issues concerning state cover up on the abuse scandals that have rocked the country. Oh and we don't have the Euro, we have a very rich and colourful history which I am very proud to be part of and the there is the Royal family who are the envy of many, yet visited by millions eachyear in the hope of a glimpse of them. The UK is filled with culture and history and it is something people should feel proud to be part of.
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Post by Jim on Oct 30, 2009 20:24:54 GMT
What am I brushing under the carpet Wasp? I've answered the question too, all I've seen from you is blaming things on Sinn Fein and that NI would be a better place without it; heres the facts me, we voted for Sinn Fein, they are our choice, its something both of us will have to live with, just as I have to live with the DUP, who dont have a single policy on anything that I agree with. I see them as extreme as SF with the added bonus of being ultra conservative and backward in their logic on things like the death penalty and even economics.
Financially people are neither better off in the ROI or the UK, theyre better off in the EU, both countries are members so I barely consider the financial side of a United Ireland as its pretty irrelevant unless you're a millionaire businessman worried about taxes. Wether or not we are in the UK or a UI, we will be earning the same wages, paying taxes and paying the same prices for a pint. Infact I find the comparisons of prices in Dublin and Belfast ridiculous. As someone who has lived in England for a while now, its pretty clear capital cities are almost always more expensive. I'm lucky enough to not live in London and the prices in Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool etc are pretty similar to Belfast, just as the prices in London are pretty similar to Dublin, for near enough everything.
As for the UK being a major world player, I'm sorry but those days are gone. It has important diplomatic relations with many countries, but thats not always a good thing. As you know, Britains involvement in many world situations actually makes it dangerous to travel with a British passport to many countries. I'm not proud of that as a British citizen, not at all. Nor am I proud of the Empire, or taking part in illegal and unjustified wars. I prefer the Irish foreign policy; what goes on in the other side of the world is not our problem unless it directly affects us. That is, ofcourse, wars of aggression such as in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you think the UK hasnt got a violent history then you are mistaken. You do not take over half the world, "the sun never sleeps on the british empire" with tea and biscuits. Modern Britain has had its fair share of violence from race riots which are creeping back, and the very violent strikes under Thatcher. I'm sure you remember. I remember and I was only porn in the 80s.
Yes, the UK has many good points about it. I'm not against the union per se, I've no problem with English people or Scottish people, after all I live there. You have said before Wasp you do not consider yourself Irish, yet you are saying to me that I should feel proud of the UKs history; why arent you proud of your Irish history and heritage? North or South we're the friendliest people in the world I say.
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Post by Wasp on Oct 30, 2009 23:28:31 GMT
Jim when I answer a question and give my point of view you have made it clear on this thread that you dont want to hear what I have to say, I will not brush the very valid concerns of my community under the carpet to accomodate this thread or any thread.
It certainly would be a better place.
I know only too well that many from your community voted for terrorists, terrorist mouthpieces and those who endorsed the terror campaign inflicted on my community as well at times on your own community. Too me that speaks volumes for much of your community. Tell me how you come to the conclusion that the dupers are as extreme as sinn fein/ira???
Financially we are better off with the UK Jim.
How much is a pint in Dublin Jim and how much is a pint in Londodn/Belfast etc??
I travel quite often to London and in many bars the price of drink is cheaper than Ballymena or Coleraine. I am sure BA will know of the bars in the Westend where a pint is less than over here.
See answer above concerning London Jim, you are wrong here. Of course there are bars that are more expensive but there are many which are not and I drink in places like Soho and the westend which are highly popular with tourists. One of my favourite bars is just off Oxford street and a pint is about 30 or 40p cheaper than local bars here. How much is fags in Dublin, how much is say an eat as much as you want Chinese buffet in Dublin, how much is say an average guesthouse in Dublin, how much would it cost to travel all day on Dublin buses and trains???
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The UK is a mjor world player and it certainly hasnt always been a good thing.
Britain is not perfect and it has been involved in wriong decisions but then what else would one expect from that cunt Blair.
I am very proud of the empire, I am very proud of its history while at the sametime wish some of that history never happened. Ireland's foreign policy is a cowardly one where they let other countries such as the UK and the US do all the hard work in countires across the globe. While some 'wars' have been wrong many other situations have been right where they are helping the vulnerable and protecting the innocent from persecution, starvation, inhuman treatment etc etc.
When did I say that??
Jim if you go back over the centuries you will know many powerful countries acted in ways at times that would shock us all now and Britain was no different. I posted facts on here that Ireland under British rule was the 7th or so richest country in the world which is an achievemnet in itself, remember it took the British to unite Ireland.
Dont think you could compare that with modern Irish history Jim with civil war and so forth.
Jim why did many many Irish move to the UK say in modern times if they were no better off with the UK than with the republic??
I am not Irish, you were born within the UK and to me you should be proud of the history and where people such as nationalists say they are not British etc, I am saying you should embrace the rich history and culture that you/they are very much part of and be proud of it.
Irish history to me is mainly a sad and troubled history with Irishmen butchering Irishmen etc, as far as my heritage is concerned then what Irish heritage do I have?? I am very proud of say the apprentice boys, King William etc but I do not identify mysefl with ROI heritage at all as I was not born in the ROI, I dont live in the ROI and for much of my life I seen the ROI as a threat to my identity, my culture and my country.
That aside there are things that I can relate to, for example you know my opinions on the irish president, yet at the sametime her husband is IMHO genuinely trying to help my community and he isnt doing it for recognition, much if not all is behind the scenes and I fully welcome his position on the things I am talking about.
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Post by Republic on Nov 2, 2009 20:12:29 GMT
ok lads basically, what would you do to make the other side feel welcome. Jims original answer is the one along the lines I was thinking of.
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Post by Jim on Nov 2, 2009 23:38:51 GMT
If I didnt want to hear your point of view, Wasp, I wouldnt bother coming on this website in the first place.
I don't disagree that your communities concerns are valid, I disagree on the basis that you use Republican violence as a benchmark for pretty much every issue we discuss.
Know what speaks volumes to me? That your community vote en-mass for ultra conservative, uber religious fundamentalists whos former leader done much to get young loyalist men to join the UDA, as acknowledged by former loyalist paramilitaries.. Now, do I say that unionists are the above? Certainly not. But I could be inclined to say it given the policy of the DUP.
Financially Britain, as in Scotland, England and Wales are better off. Northern Ireland is still lagging heavily behind, its considered by the EU an under developed region, something I'm doing my degree dissertation on right now. We don't seem to be benefiting at all from the union financially.
A pint in Dublin is expensive, about roughly the same price as London. Lets say £3.50 a pint in sterling. Where do you drink in London? The only place you'll get a cheap pint is in labour clubs and there arent too many of them in the south of england. One of my best mates is London born and bred, he lives in Manchester now and has said it can be up to double the price in London. Belfast isnt getting any cheaper either. Went into town the other day and got hit £3.20 for a pint of Harp. I can walk into a bar in Manchester city centre and get a pint for £2.40... as it happens, second cities are always cheaper, so comparing Dublin with Belfast is as stupid as comparing London to Manchester or Liverpool.
You're using Dublin as a benchmark for the Irish economy on drink, food, accomodation etc. Go to Limerick or Galway or Cork, much cheaper. Likewise in the UK. Steer away from London and the south of England in general and its much cheaper; until you come to Northern Ireland, where we don't seem to be on the same level with anyone. Can you tell me its cheap in Belfast for a chinese buffet? It can cost nearly £3 to get from the city centre to Poleglass these days.
Financial arguements in favour of unions are daft in the first place, we may as well become the 51st American state, join the German federation of union with Canada if thats the case.
I don't know how you can be proud of an empire that enslaved thousands, killed many more thousands and forcifully destroyed languages and cultures, as did France, Portugal and the Dutch. I'm not proud of European imperialism in general. I really fail to see how neutrality is cowardly.
The UK and US may do all the "hard work"; what hard work is that Wasp? Invading sovreign nations and disposing of its leaders? Setting up guerilla groups decades earlier in the cold war then having to fix the "problem" by reinvading? Skinting out the many African countries on trade purposely? Aye, hard work that.
It didnt take the "British" to unite Ireland, thats like saying it took the Romans to unite Britain, its an untrue myth. Ireland was for centuries split in regards to clans yet they formed the one nation and country, much like Scotland, much like Germany, much like any modern nation. England up until it started invading all around them was made up in the same way. Infact its daft to say the British united the Irish; as A. it justifies a United Ireland by "doing whats morally right", and B. I doubt if the British hadnt of invaded, in 2009 Ireland would be running around with 5 individual independent countries that use to be provinces. Ireland was a unified nation long before half of Europe was, do not mistake provincial boundaries and half kingdoms for the full thing.
What can I not compare? You say the Republic of Irelands modern history is violent; mistake me if I'm wrong, but one of the last religious and civil conflicts in Western Europe took part in the UK. Not the Republic.
You seem to have this idea that I hate everything associated with Britain, and when I ask you why you have no pride in your Irish heritage you rant on about me being British. I am saying you should embrace the rich history and culture of the island you were born on, I embrace what I need of British culture, if I can understand British culture to begin with, much of "British" culture is infact "English" culture these days, and to them, you are Irish, if ofcourse you dont talk to English unionists who are heavily sympathetic to Loyalism, which the vast vast majority arent.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 3, 2009 0:49:06 GMT
Same goes for me.
Well republican violence Jim is something that is of course a benchmark on many things.
Err Jim who were the largest party for Unionists?? Before the dupers became the biggest party they condemned all violence by all sides, infact the only people to attack Paisley's house were loyalists. Most of the blame for any loyalist joining any group lies with republican violence, not lundy. Sf/ira are up to their necks in crime and murder with no condemnation apart from what dissidents now do. If the uda/uvf political wings were voted into power then you certainly have a point but to try and equate voting for the dupers with sf/ira is both laughable and ridiculous.
Jim see answer above.
We would certainly be worse of with the republic, what about the public sector here Jim, isnt that of great benefit to us??
Plenty of bars, mainly the westend, on matchdays up near the Emirates we pay the same for a pint as locals £2.40 to £2.60 depending on what time we are in the bars. In the westend we pay from £2.20 to about £2.80 for a pint although a few bars have been closer to £3. I will be over again in a few weeks and if I remember I will post the prices here.
Not true Jim, I get a cheap pint along with various offers on spirits in a number of bars.
Well I have never found a bar in London that has been double the price, most I have been in have various drinks promotions on but of course there are more expensive bars as well.
The most I have payed for a pint in Belfast is about £2.80 but I hardly frink up there. But I do know there are lots of bars and clubs with crazy drinks promotions on it where punters can get very cheap drink, this was on the nolan show a few weeks back.
No Jim you said 'the prices in London are pretty similar to Dublin, for near enough everything' and I am challenging that assertion.
Jim we get bargains galore in London where I buy most of my clothes and save alot of money compared to prices here. The only other place that could compare that I shop in is Brimingham which also has loads of bargains especially designer gear. I got a FCUK jacket in Windsor for £30, the same jacket in London was £35 and here in Belfast/Ballymena the exact same jacket was reduced to £90.
I didnt ask you about Belfast, I asked you about Dublin when comparing Dublin with London as stated by yourself.
I am very proud of the Empire, its history and its glory but of course especially witht he world being what it was in those days there is much of history that is shocking, depressing and disappointing. Neutrality in the world wars Jim was cowardly for a countyr so close to the conflict while others gave everything.
Jim you know fine well what I meant and if it wasnt for the US and Britain what would the world be like for people living in the nations where we came to their aid??
Jim did it or did it not take Britain to unite Ireland??
What conflict was that Jim.
I dont think that, I didnt realize I ranted on about you being British.
I see much of the history of this island as a sad and violent one, culturally I feel no sense of belonging to the irish side of things, it is all very much alien to me. What I feel about history here is the drive to drive the British out of their own countyr, the drive to force people like me, my parents, granparents etc out of the countyr they were born in, or use violence against them to force a UI on them. That is something I would never embrace. There may be somethings I could identify with that I havent already mentioned but I cant think of any.
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Post by sandyrowglenman on Nov 3, 2009 15:49:30 GMT
We know fine well what the IRA did. It wears a bit thin after 1000 posts on it even when the topic has nothing to do with it. What republicans "condone" publically is not always what they condone privately, you would be surprised at some of the arguments going on in republican circles! Herin lies part of the problem. Perhaps if you were to condemn PUBLICLY any atrocities when committed it might be the beginning of a new era. |
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