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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 17:49:14 GMT
Please elaborate. What would they have known and at what time? Are you saying that by 1940 the irish gov. wouldnt have know hitler had invaded 8 neutral European countries? Are you saying any European government would not have soon heard about the horrors of the nazi regime?? In July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom. By late 1940 The IRA’s opponents in Irish military intelligence were prepared to concede that the IRA ‘would give every assistance’ to the defence forces in the event of a British invasion but would assist the Germans if they landed. Across Europe a variety of ethnic and political groups collaborated with the Nazis in order to further their own agendas. Inevitably this meant active involvement in Nazi persecution of Jews and political opponents. It also meant becoming a part of the Nazi governmental machine. Now read this; Furthermore, the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious. That Nazi Germany was a one-party dictatorship was not a secret. The banning of political organisations and the jailing and murder of opponents by the Nazis during 1933 and 1934 was widely reported in Ireland, not least in the IRA’s own press. The November 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which stripped German Jews of citizenship rights and forbade physical relations between Jew and ‘Aryan’, were not a closely guarded secret. The support given to Franco by Germany and the destruction of Basque Guernica by Nazi bombers in May 1937 was actually condemned by An Phoblacht. The Kristallnacht pogrom of November 1938 that saw the murder of 100 people, the destruction of thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues and the jailing of 26,000 Jews was international news.In 1941 in War News, the IRA’s main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the ‘cleansing fire’ of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. British war minister Hore Belisha was described as a ‘wealthy Jew’ only interested in ‘profits’. War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of ‘so-called Jewish refugees’, along with unspecified numbers of ‘Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars’. How on earth can you ask such silly questions considering what Iposted above, if the ira knew then the irish governemnt would have known. Re-read the part I underlined again. Prof Brian Girvan says that de Valera was well aware of the extermination of Jews by Nazis during the war but still identified with Hitler's army. |
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Post by Jim on Nov 5, 2009 19:16:34 GMT
Same goes for me. Well republican violence Jim is something that is of course a benchmark on many things. Err Jim who were the largest party for Unionists?? Before the dupers became the biggest party they condemned all violence by all sides, infact the only people to attack Paisley's house were loyalists. Most of the blame for any loyalist joining any group lies with republican violence, not lundy. Sf/ira are up to their necks in crime and murder with no condemnation apart from what dissidents now do. If the :Puda/uvf political wings were voted into power then you certainly have a point but to try and equate voting for the dupers with sf/ira is both laughable and ridiculous. Jim see answer above. We would certainly be worse of with the republic, what about the public sector here Jim, isnt that of great benefit to us?? Plenty of bars, mainly the westend, on matchdays up near the Emirates we pay the same for a pint as locals £2.40 to £2.60 depending on what time we are in the bars. In the westend we pay from £2.20 to about £2.80 for a pint although a few bars have been closer to £3. I will be over again in a few weeks and if I remember I will post the prices here. Not true Jim, I get a cheap pint along with various offers on spirits in a number of bars. Well I have never found a bar in London that has been double the price, most I have been in have various drinks promotions on but of course there are more expensive bars as well. The most I have payed for a pint in Belfast is about £2.80 but I hardly frink up there. But I do know there are lots of bars and clubs with crazy drinks promotions on it where punters can get very cheap drink, this was on the nolan show a few weeks back. No Jim you said 'the prices in London are pretty similar to Dublin, for near enough everything' and I am challenging that assertion. Jim we get bargains galore in London where I buy most of my clothes and save alot of money compared to prices here. The only other place that could compare that I shop in is Brimingham which also has loads of bargains especially designer gear. I got a FCUK jacket in Windsor for £30, the same jacket in London was £35 and here in Belfast/Ballymena the exact same jacket was reduced to £90. I didnt ask you about Belfast, I asked you about Dublin when comparing Dublin with London as stated by yourself. I am very proud of the Empire, its history and its glory but of course especially witht he world being what it was in those days there is much of history that is shocking, depressing and disappointing. Neutrality in the world wars Jim was cowardly for a countyr so close to the conflict while others gave everything. Jim you know fine well what I meant and if it wasnt for the US and Britain what would the world be like for people living in the nations where we came to their aid?? Jim did it or did it not take Britain to unite Ireland?? What conflict was that Jim. I dont think that, I didnt realize I ranted on about you being British. I see much of the history of this island as a sad and violent one, culturally I feel no sense of belonging to the irish side of things, it is all very much alien to me. What I feel about history here is the drive to drive the British out of their own countyr, the drive to force people like me, my parents, granparents etc out of the countyr they were born in, or use violence against them to force a UI on them. That is something I would never embrace. There may be somethings I could identify with that I havent already mentioned but I cant think of any. If republican violence is a benchmark then you may include other violent groups and aggressive armies, but you wont, so its not a benchmark. only to you and loyalists. The DUP have no problem turning a blind eye to loyalist violence until they realised they might be able to run the place. they're a religious fundamentalist and throughly anti irish, they certainly do not have an innocent or clear history, nor do the uup, the party that mis-ruled so badly that it sparked civil conflict. If the PUP were voted into power I would be completely supportive of it, actually. Funnily enough, the PUP are more interested in working with my community than the DUP are, and actively do so. Wasp incase you havent realised, the british government is trying to get rid of most of the public sector, we are over reliant on it for employment and it is certainly not the case in the rest of the uk. particularly with the conservatives coming to power there will be massive changes to it, it wont be pretty. You may tell me these places Wasp im going to London soon  ofcourse you can get cheap drink in belfast, in west belfast its about £2.40, in the town you can go to wetherspoons, but any bar worth its while charge up to £3 now. The prices in London ARE pretty similar to Dublin, what I'm talking about is comparing "second cities" and smaller cities, they dont reflect the prices of any capital, so your argument about Dublin prices being bad for us doesnt make much sense, its like saying Liverpool is expensive because London is, its not. Why was it cowardly Wasp? Considering the Republic didnt actually have much of an army in the first place, considering the history of Ireland and Britain which was still in very clear living memory only 20 years prior, considering Germany showed no aggression to Ireland, considering Germany had taken over Europe and the ONLY countries that would have the ability to stand up to them was the Soviet Union, the USA and Britain (and even then Britain was on the verge of defeat), what exactly could the Republic of provided militarily to the war effort? A few thousand soldiers that had already enlisted for the British army. They already allowed allies to use Irish territory secretly. No, it didnt take BRitain to unite Ireland, I made that clear. Its a myth by unionists to justify Britains presence in Ireland. You've ranted before Wasp, when I told you Ive no particular problem being considered British depending on why I would be, you accepted it. Yet you've no interest in being considered Irish at all. I dont believe that the history of this island is a sad one, its a proud one just like any European country. Britains history is no less violent in my opinion, infact, its much more aggressive. Wasp I have come across loyalists who have had the same drive, only in the direction of my community, to expel us from Northern Ireland and to "go back to Dublin", do I equal that to unionist culture? Not particularly, no. It is unfair to say Irish culture is reactionary to British culture, it is not. If you cannot identify with Irish culture then you clearly cannot identify with your own neighbours, the people who you share this state with, as we consider ourselves Irish and vastly identify with Irish culture; Its a lie to say you cannot identify with these people; I can identify with unionists from NI, they're the same people as I am, just different politics. Bring politics out of the equasion and theres no difference in us, likewise for people in the south, the accent may be different, and some of the slang is different, just like it is in English regions. |
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Post by Jim on Nov 5, 2009 19:22:54 GMT
Just because he isn't a loyalist doesn't mean he is absolutely on the same page politicaly as Haughey, in your desire to make your point you are ignoring the fierce and bitter rivalries between oppossing Irish political parties. Your source is a a grandnephew of WT Cosgrave from the sound of things, who was a Fine Gael politican - Charlie was Fianna Fail. Personally I have no love for Haughey who I regarded as a prime example of the brown envelope culture but you have to consider the source when considering the comments. The boys own version of WW2 in which all the Allies set out to rescue the poor, beleagured Jews is quite frankly a lot of shite. The fact the death camps were destroyed as the war progressed is something to be applauded but the fate of the Jews was not a primary concern of Churchill or Roosevelt, we didn't see them rushing of to the Soviet Union either before or after WW2 when millions of Jewish people were been exterminated there. Exactly. The allies had some idea of what was going on in the camps, and their existance. Note I said some. It came from intelligence and intercepting coded messages, and from Jews and POWs who made it to the very edges of France and to Britain. The Germans took prisoners on long walks until they died or reached their new destinations where they were then shot, and the camps completely destroyed, even the German population had little idea about them, only rumours and myths. Even the Jews themselves as they arrived at Auschwitz had no idea of the camps existence. So to say Allied troops invaded with the conviction of liberating Europe and to save the Jews is bollocks, they would have known little of it. Countries fought the Germans for their own survival, nothing more. The Soviets wouldnt have fought if the Germans didnt invade Russia, America would have stayed out of it if the Japanese didnt attack them, the British wouldnt have invaded if Germany didnt invade Belgium to which Britain had a legal obligation to fight for. The "final solution" didnt even exist when WW2 broke out. My own granda fought in the second world war in the British Army, he didnt do it out of conviction to liberate Europe, he did it because he was getting food, shoes and somewhere to sleep. |
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Post by Blue Angel on Nov 5, 2009 19:37:01 GMT
The Soviets lost far more than the Allies, far more than everyone else in fact in casualties and lost 2 million Jewish citizens (the second hightest number of Jews killed in WW2) but that didn't stop them from repressing the Jews after WW2 - the number of Jews in russia hand surrounding countries that made up the Soviet Union has fallen drastically due to opression, them been sent to gulags, executions for been anti-Soviet etc. I didn't see the US and Britain say they had to save the Jews there though. The Jews themselves know saving them was not a major goal of the Allies and they were proved right in that estimation when we look at how the allies locked them up in camps on Cyprus and elsewhere after WW2 ended and although the Allies all had a good old grumble about how bad Germany was it's noticeable no-one was too forthcoming with offers of new homes for the Jews.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 22:15:06 GMT
Not true Jim, the dupers whom I might add I cant stand condemned violence from anyside.
No political party is innocent, not one but I really dont see the dupers as anti-irish at all. They certainly were against all the irish things which symbolized the ira and republicanism.
Jim we are talking about now, you are basing your points on things that have not happened and may not happen in the scale you think it might.
I will get the names for you no probs, I know one bar is the champion bar.
Jim the beach club at the Odyssey has many drink promos on, such as 2quid a drink on a Thursday night and you dont get much bigger than there.
No they are not Jim and I have asked you to give me prices of various things. How much is a packet of fags? A friend of mine from Dublin said a pint can cost almost 5 euros in many bars in the centre, so is there many bars in Dublin city centre that sell pints much cheaper than that?? How much for an all day train and bus pass around Dublin, how much for an eat as much as you want Chinese buffet in Chinatown (if Dublin has one), what about clothes etc??
Again Jim London is cheaper than many other places in the UK or at least as cheap. Of course there are those places which are expensive but in general I can eat out and get pissed for cheaper than many UK towns or cities, in some cases every bit as cheap. If I went out in Ballymena for a Chinese buffet with 2 coke for 2 people at the lower end of the market it would cost me about £25 to £30, in London with a bigger selection of food and 10 pints of coke or 20 pints of coke (unlimited refills) costs about £15 through the day and about £18 in the evening.
Why then Jim did Ireland seek Britains assistance if the germans were to invade or attack them??
Considering thousands of irishmen volunteered I am sure Ireland could have gave some assistance in plenty of ways, funny though how these brave volunteers were treated by the irish government when they returned and funny how dublin has a statue to a nazi collaborator yet only low-key wall plaques and memorial stones for the thousands who fought and died in the war with the nazis.
I dont use that to justify Britains 'prescence' in Ireland.
That's because I am not, I have many Irish friends, Irish relations but I am not Irish. It has nothing to do with the word 'irish', it has everything to do with where I was born and bred.
Irelands history could never be a match for Britains history including all things good and bad, I find much of irelands history a sad and divided one with little to show in terms of a rich and vibrant history.
That is rubbish Jim and you know it. I have said before my niece won prizes at irish dancing and I went to see her perform so things like that I can identify with irish culture, nor do I have a problem with it. That aside you tell me what aspects of irish culture I should identify with.
That is a vast distortion of the truth Jim and you have twisted what I have said. If I lived say in Hyde I would have many Aisan neighbours, does that make me Asian and because I am not Asian does that mean I am against them or does it mean I have to identify myself with their culture??
Why wouldnt you identify yourself with people born in the same place as you, whether it is a town, village, city or country??
Of course there is, I am better looking than you. ;D Jim take politics out of anything and we are all the same no matter where we are in the world. You would think I look on non-Unionists as aliens or something.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 22:20:40 GMT
The decapitation of IRA leader Seán Russell’s statue in Dublin’s Fairview Park earlier this year has reopened an embarrassing chapter in that organisation’s history. Was Russell a Nazi collaborator or simply an exponent of the old Fenian adage that ‘England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity’? Brian Hanley assesses the evidence.
Seán Russell, the IRA chief of staff, spent the summer of 1940 in a ‘very large’ villa in the leafy Grunewald, near Berlin, surrounded by extensive grounds and parks, enjoying all the privileges of a diplomat with regard to access to food, petrol and other rationed goods. His villa contained radio gramophone facilities and an ‘excellent library’ equipped with ‘special war maps’ that enabled Russell to keep abreast of Germany’s stunning military victories that summer. As a registered representative of the Irish Republic he was accorded ‘every privilege possible’, including the use of a car and chauffeur for trips around Berlin and the German countryside and the services of a young Austrian aristocrat, who was appointed as his companion and interpreter. He was given access to the high-security Brandenburg military camp to study the latest techniques in sabotage and guerilla warfare, and met leading Nazis such as Foreign Minister Joachim Von Ribbentrop. Following the fall of France, Russell urged that the German high command make use of the IRA to strike at British forces in Northern Ireland as part of a general attack on Britain. His plans were accepted and incorporated into Operation Sealion (the plan for the invasion of Britain), a mark of the ‘respect and esteem’ in which Russell was held by the German military leadership. During August Russell was to return to Ireland to oversee the implementation of these plans, but on his journey home by U-boat he became ill and died. His body was buried at sea with full German naval honours.
The above information comes not from one of Russell’s many critics, eager to paint him as a collaborator with the Nazis, but from the republican newspaper The United Irishman of October 1951. The article was published to coincide with the unveiling of a monument to Russell in Dublin’s Fairview Park and concluded that he was a ‘worthy successor to Tone and Casement’. Quite apart from that questionable assessment, what is notable about the article is the utter lack of embarrassment that the leader of the IRA was a guest of the Nazis during a period in which the German armies invaded and forcibly occupied five sovereign nations. Yet many still dispute claims that Russell collaborated with the Nazis, painting him as a simple military man unconcerned with political matters. That this should excuse him of collaboration is of course debatable. Others have suggested that both he and the IRA could have had no knowledge of the realities of Nazi policy and were simply following the tradition of ‘England’s difficulty being Ireland’s opportunity.’ The presence of former International Brigade officer Frank Ryan on board the U-boat with Russell is seen as further evidence of lack of Nazi sympathy. The question of collaboration is more complex and wider than both sides of the argument have allowed, though, I would argue, no less damning for Russell in the end.
Early contacts with Nazi Germany
Russell’s contacts with Nazi Germany dated from as early as October 1936, when he wrote to the German ambassador to the United States, apologising on behalf of the Irish people for the refusal of the de Valera administration to grant landing rights to the German air service. In that letter he signalled that he would be willing to cooperate with the Germans in any future military conflicts they found themselves in. It was in the US that initial IRA–Nazi contacts were established, with the Clan na Gael leader Joe McGarrity a key figure in building these links. During 1938 the left-wing Irish Democrat noted that the Nazis were making efforts to win allies among Irish republicans in New York. Russell and McGarrity cooperated in launching a coup within the IRA during that year, overthrowing its established leadership and committing the organisation to a bombing campaign in Britain. Tom Barry, one of the ousted leadership, claimed that money from the German-American Bund, the main Nazi organisation in the US, had been promised to fund the bombing campaign. In January 1939 that bombing campaign began but, despite leading to seven civilian deaths and the execution of two IRA men, never caused the political crisis the IRA hoped for. The international situation leading up to the outbreak of the Second World War preoccupied British opinion. During the months after the outbreak of war the IRA publicly declared that it was supporting neither ‘king’ nor ‘dictator’.
However, in July 1940 the IRA leadership issued a statement outlining its position on the war. The statement made clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they will land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom. In response to critics such as George Bernard Shaw, who had drawn attention to Hitler’s anti-Catholic policies, the IRA countered that both ‘Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini’ proved their lack of bias by helping to establish the ‘Catholic government’ of Franco in Spain. In August the IRA confidently predicted that with the assistance of ‘our victorious European allies’ Ireland would ‘achieve absolute independence within the next few months’.
The IRA’s statements drew angry responses from Irish Freedom, published by the Connolly Association, and Irish Workers Weekly, published by the Communist Party of Ireland, who criticised the IRA for inviting ‘German soldiers to come and devastate the country they talk of freeing’. These papers also noted how the IRA and their ‘strange bedfellow General O’Duffy’ were lauding as ‘liberators’ powers that held ‘Abyssinia, Austria, Albania and Czechoslovakia’ in subjection. The reference to the former Blueshirt leader was apt. During 1940 IRA officers approached O’Duffy and asked him to become an intelligence operative for the organisation. Irish Freedom noted with disgust how the Nazis seemed to have been able to ‘corrupt’ some of the leading Irish republicans.
Anti-Semitic propaganda
That this was the case became more apparent over the next year. War News, the IRA’s main publication, became increasingly pro-Nazi in tone, even claiming active IRA involvement in the German bombing of British cities. But more chillingly it began to ape anti-Semitic arguments. Satisfaction was expressed that the ‘cleansing fire’ of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe. British war minister Hore Belisha was described as a ‘wealthy Jew’ only interested in ‘profits’. War News condemned the arrival in Ireland of ‘so-called Jewish refugees’, along with unspecified numbers of ‘Albanian, Abyssinian, Mongolian [and] Tartars’. These new arrivals were not only supposedly putting Irish people out of work but also exploiting those that they employed. Belfast was said to be increasingly in the ‘hands of international Jewry’ because of this influx. ‘The Jews’, War News warned, were ‘like the English, when they are strong they bully and rule.’ In Dublin de Valera’s government was also dominated by ‘Jews and Freemasons’ who were becoming the ‘new owners of Ireland’. Fianna Fáil TD Robert Briscoe was singled out for attack.
Given the tiny numbers of Jewish refugees actually allowed access to Ireland this logic was perverse, but it reflected a strand of thought previously expressed within the republican movement on numerous occasions by the Sinn Féin leader J.J. O’Kelly (Scelig). Throughout the 1930s Sinn Féin publications written by O’Kelly had repeatedly attacked alleged Jewish influence in Ireland. By 1940 he was praising Hitler for freeing Germany from the ‘heel’ of the ‘Jewish white slave traffic’. Indeed, by 1940 republicans and former Blueshirts were mingling in a variety of small pro-German organisations in Dublin. What is clear is that at least a section of the IRA leadership was attracted by Nazism’s successes.
Anti-Nazism within the IRA
Was this simply a more extreme form of the widespread ‘sneaking regard’ in Ireland for German military victories over the British during 1940? After all, much of nationalist Ireland refused to believe that any form of oppression was worse than that inflicted by the British. What differentiated the IRA from other sections of nationalist opinion, however, is that the organisation had an anti-Nazi history. In 1933 the IRA’s newspaper An Phoblacht had condemned ‘Hitlerism’ as a ‘disease’. After the Nazis came to power the paper attacked those ‘rather foolish people’ in Ireland who praised Hitler. It criticised anti-Semitism and drew attention to the similarity between the Blueshirts in Ireland and fascists elsewhere in Europe.
An Phoblacht reviewed the Brown Book of the Hitler Terror and explained how under Nazism ‘Jews are murdered or hounded’ and ‘bloody coercion’ imposed on the German people. That the Nazis had banned rival political parties, murdered socialists and jailed thousands of their opponents was taken as evidence that the ‘Fascist state is a collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants’. Reports from the underground German Social Democratic Party were also published in the paper. Therefore any IRA member who cared to read his own organisation’s newspaper during those years would have been aware of the nature of Nazi Germany. Part of the key to understanding the pro-Nazi drift of the IRA in 1940 is the nature of the political struggles within the organisation during the previous decade.
In 1933 the IRA had perhaps 12,000 members and was, in the Free State at least, a relatively open and public organisation. Yet it was divided on many levels. The dominant leadership grouping around Moss Twomey and Seán MacBride were sympathetic to social radicalism but primarily concerned with developing the IRA as a military force. An important section of the leadership was socialist, notably Peadar O’Donnell and George Gilmore. Another section—of which Russell, as the IRA’s quartermaster general, was probably the best example—were committed entirely to armed force and uninterested in political debate. A smaller group were attracted to Sinn Féin’s espousal of right-wing ‘Christian social’ policies. Divisions existed over the relationship between the IRA in Northern Ireland and its much larger and more influential southern counterpart, and over questions about religion and communism.
But most importantly the IRA failed to comprehend the degree to which the Fianna Fáil government was winning republican support for its constitutional politics. Violent conflict with the Blueshirts allowed the government to arrest and jail IRA members, and this violence also alienated passive support. The IRA leadership forbade its volunteers to engage in such street confrontations but was widely ignored, contributing to an image of an undisciplined, uncontrollable organisation. Differences about how to react to Fianna Fáil in government contributed to the departure of many of the most prominent socialists in 1934 to form the Republican Congress. Further violence, including murders, led to more government repression, with the eventual banning of the IRA in 1936. After Twomey was jailed that year the leadership passed to Seán MacBride, Tom Barry and Mick Fitzpatrick in quick succession. Membership fell to around 2,000.
It was in this situation that the idea for a campaign in Britain, suggested by the American Clan na Gael and taken up by Russell, appealed to young, militant IRA officers with no prior experience of military conflict. Much of the northern IRA was attracted to the idea as well, feeling marginalised and ignored by their southern comrades. Russell and McGarrity won a bitter internal power struggle, partially through sabotaging a plan for a northern campaign and convincing their young supporters that a bombing campaign in Britain would be tolerated by the Irish government. To these men cooperation with the Germans made perfect military sense.
The marginalisation and decline of the IRA and the loss of many of its more experienced leaders contributed to the German alliance. Contacts between the IRA and German nationalists in Dublin had existed since the early 1930s. In 1938 the Republican Congress warned how these nationalists, now working for German intelligence, were wooing the IRA. During that year Russell would claim to have ‘no more’ interest in Germany ruling Ireland than in Britain doing so, while still being happy to solicit their military aid. One jailed IRA leader expressed the view that he was ‘not greatly interested in the different interests’ fighting the war, ‘except in so far’ as to see ‘England beaten’. This view was echoed by the women of Cumann na mBan, who saw the Germans as ‘fighting Ireland’s battle and the battle of all oppressed nations within the empire’ but were not eager for them to come to Ireland. While naïve in the extreme, these views were at least in line with the republican belief that ‘England’s difficulty was Ireland’s opportunity’. A key factor in the more openly Nazi line was the military success of the Germans during 1940, which made it seem likely that the defeat of Britain was imminent.
Anti-Communism within the IRA
But there was more involved than apolitical militarism and opportunism. The 1930s IRA had seen bitter arguments about its social policies, especially those believed to be ‘communistic’. Criticism of the organisation by the Catholic Church had also had a major impact on the IRA, and its leadership struggled to find ways of expressing social radicalism that did not conflict with church doctrine. By the mid-1930s ideas about social credit and distributism, which included strong anti-Semitic elements, were current within the organisation, and Sinn Féin’s ‘Christian social’ policies also gained new supporters. Sympathy was expressed with demagogic figures such as Fr Charles Coughlin and Huey Long in the US.
That some IRA volunteers fought fascism in Spain is used to absolve the organisation of charges of collaboration. But the IRA actually forbade its members to go to Spain, and those volunteers who did go went in defiance of their leaders. Similarly, the commander of the Irish anti-Fascists in Spain, Frank Ryan, had severed his connection with the IRA in 1934 and joined the Republican Congress. There were pro-Franco as well as pro-Spanish republican elements within the IRA. A number of younger officers became more open to right-wing politics. Supporters of the old IRA leadership in 1938 had accused some of Russell’s supporters, such as Peadar O’Flaherty, of ‘fascist’ leanings. The strategist of the bombing campaign, James O’Donovan, was also seen by some as influenced by fascist thinking. It was in this context that IRA officers could approach Eoin O’Duffy, who as a Free State general, Garda Commissioner and Blueshirt leader had been a sworn enemy of their organisation, and offer him a place in its leadership. Clearly a section of the leadership at least was also happy to revel in Nazi successes.
It is important to note that the IRA in 1940 was under severe pressure and in decline. Hundreds of its members were jailed or interned in the Curragh camp. Undoubtedly a measure of desperation contributed to its thinking. Similarly, the views expressed in War News need to be put into context. Much of what was written in the journal was fantasy, especially the claims that the IRA was playing a major role in the German war effort. But the IRA clearly wanted to be seen to be doing so, and there may have been an element of hoping to impress the Nazis as well as the Irish public. Furthermore, War News was illegal and therefore written and distributed surreptitiously. A small number of people were responsible for its content and only a few IRA members could have had any input into it. Despite the violence of some of the anti-Jewish rhetoric in War News the IRA did not attempt to physically attack Irish Jews.
But the reality was that, whether ideologically pro-Nazi or not, the IRA was committed to aiding the German war effort. By late 1940 that meant supporting a German invasion of Ireland. The IRA’s opponents in Irish military intelligence were prepared to concede that the IRA ‘would give every assistance’ to the defence forces in the event of a British invasion but would assist the Germans if they landed. Across Europe a variety of ethnic and political groups collaborated with the Nazis in order to further their own agendas. Inevitably this meant active involvement in Nazi persecution of Jews and political opponents. It also meant becoming a part of the Nazi governmental machine. Does anyone seriously believe that the IRA would have avoided playing this role?
Furthermore, the argument that Russell and the IRA could have had no idea of the nature of Nazi policies is spurious. That Nazi Germany was a one-party dictatorship was not a secret. The banning of political organisations and the jailing and murder of opponents by the Nazis during 1933 and 1934 was widely reported in Ireland, not least in the IRA’s own press. The November 1935 Nuremberg Laws, which stripped German Jews of citizenship rights and forbade physical relations between Jew and ‘Aryan’, were not a closely guarded secret. The support given to Franco by Germany and the destruction of Basque Guernica by Nazi bombers in May 1937 was actually condemned by An Phoblacht. The Kristallnacht pogrom of November 1938 that saw the murder of 100 people, the destruction of thousands of homes, businesses and synagogues and the jailing of 26,000 Jews was international news. By 1940 the Nazis had invaded and occupied a large part of Europe. That these occupied countries did not desire foreign occupation should have given pause for thought to a movement claiming to seek national self-determination.
IRA role in German-occupied Ireland?
Seán Russell may have been uninterested in political debate but he was hardly unaware of these matters. That he was happy to take up residence in Berlin as a guest of the Nazis, meet their high command and propose plans for military action in support of a German invasion was collaboration, whatever his private motivation. Is there not something perverse about an Irish republican enjoying special privileges in the capital of a state that was embarked on a mission to conquer all of Europe?
Given the experience of other occupied countries in Europe, the IRA would have found itself rewarded for its assistance by a role in the administration of occupied Ireland. IRA intelligence would have been used to arrest left-wing and other political opponents of the Nazis. The anti-Semitic authors of War News would have been put to work on helping to round up Ireland’s Jews. Old scores would have been settled by newly empowered local IRA officers. Those IRA members who had no time for Nazi ideology but wished to see a German victory would have had to face the logic of that position. A German victory meant the Nazi occupation of Ireland. Here we face the question posed by Joe Lee as to how the Black and Tans would have retrospectively looked after our occupation by the SS. Even in purely numerical terms, the Germans killed more Irish civilians in the bombing of Belfast than had died at the hands of the British during the War of Independence.
No doubt a section of the IRA would have realised their mistake and resisted. Certainly among the internees in the Curragh there were those who came to the conclusion that German imperialism represented a graver threat to Irish freedom than British. Other sections of Irish society would have collaborated too, of course, and the European experience suggests that many of the great and the good would have found reason to do so. But, unlike these hypothetical collaborators, the IRA actually wanted a German invasion and was in a position for a period to physically assist one. That is the central problem that many still refuse to face up to.
Brian Hanley lectures in Irish history at NUI Maynooth.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 5, 2009 22:27:22 GMT
James Joseph Magennis was the only native of Northern Ireland to receive the Victoria Cross for Second World War service. He was from a working class Roman Catholic family and attended St Finian's School, Falls Road, Belfast until 3 June 1935 when enlisted in the Royal Navy as a boy seaman.
My kind of hero and a man that fully deserved the VC.
This was pulished in a newspaper concerning his award.
Temporary Acting Leading Seaman James Joseph MAGENNIS, D/JX. 144907.
Leading Seaman Magennis served as Diver in His Majesty's Midget Submarine XE-3 for her attack on 31st July, 1945, on a Japanese cruiser of the Atago class. Owing to the fact that XE-3 was tightly jammed under the target the diver's hatch could not be fully opened, and Magennis had to squeeze himself through the narrow space available.
He experienced great difficulty in placing his limpets on the bottom of the cruiser owing both to the foul state of the bottom and to the pronounced slope upon which the limpets would not hold. Before a limpet could be placed therefore Magennis had thoroughly to scrape the area clear of barnacles, and in order to secure the limpets he had to tie them in pairs by a line passing under the cruiser keel. This was very tiring work for a diver, and he was moreover handicapped by a steady leakage of oxygen which was ascending in bubbles to the surface. A lesser man would have been content to place a few limpets and then to return to the craft. Magennis, however, persisted until he had placed his full outfit before returning to the craft in an exhausted condition. Shortly after withdrawing Lieutenant Fraser endeavoured to jettison his limpet carriers, but one of these would not release itself and fall clear of the craft. Despite his exhaustion, his oxygen leak and the fact that there was every probability of -his being sighted, Magennis at once volunteered to leave the craft and free the carrier rather than allow a less experienced diver to undertake the job. After seven minutes of nerve-racking work he succeeded in releasing the carrier. Magennis displayed very great courage and devotion to duty and complete disregard for his own safety.
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Post by Republic on Nov 5, 2009 22:59:40 GMT
Thats a bit ridiculous wasp, in fairness. Maybe it was a heat of the moment comment, but come on. Do you really stand over that? |
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Post by Wasp on Nov 6, 2009 0:23:55 GMT
I dont want you taking it out of context, I do not see any real extent of a rich and vibrant history, nor do I see anyhwere that tens of thousand of people flock to each year to visit in comparison to Buckingham Palace, Windsor, Houses of Parliment, Downing St etc etc. When I think of the much loved aspects of British culture, way of life, history etc etc I cannot see anything that comes close in Ireland.
Take the premier league and some of the biggest clubs and biggest support in the world which is the envy of most if not all other nations, take the rich and colourful history of the Royal family, take the many many famous landmarks, take the long and rich history of Britains armed forces, take the long and rich history of Westminster etc etc, there are at least over 15 million visitors to London eachyear alone and I just do not see anything remotely similar with as much worldwide attraction in Ireland. Can you?
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Post by sandyrowglenman on Nov 6, 2009 16:26:01 GMT
Oh I don't know. Hell of a lot of people visit Ireland for the Guiness.... 
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Post by Blue Angel on Nov 6, 2009 17:00:06 GMT
I can't see how expressions of culturual triumphalism along the lines of 'we had a big empire and we is more interesting than you can ever be', are really helpful. At times to be fair to WASP I've felt there was a refusal to engage with the real cost of violence to his community and an appeal to dubious sound bites. I've recently moved toward the position of supporting at best civil disobeidence as WASP has seen and resolutely away from support for physical force, I've tried where possible to put myself in his shoes. I sometimes see his posts as over the top but I've tried to imagine how he feels rather than just jumping on him recently. SRG is not a frequent visitor alas so might be suprised that goes hand in hand for me with thinking about my faith again and re-assesing my views on that and how I should lead my life.
I do feel we have to get beyond this 'who is the bigger boy in the world playground' level of thinking - there is much of worth historically in British culture and we'd all be much poorer without many of the musicians, artists etc. who are from Britain, but the same is also true for Ireland. And Ireland does have an extraordinarly rich history if you take time to look at it and research it.
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Post by Wasp on Nov 6, 2009 18:15:51 GMT
BA you have completley taken what I said out of context, you are using the divide between the peoples on this island to have what I said mean something else. How is what I said culturual triumphalism or how is taken that I am saying 'we had a big empire and we is more interesting than you can ever be'?? That is a childish comment and I would say the same if we were talking about some(at least some) other countries and that certainly wouldnt be culturual triumphalism. This getting offended at anything Irish is beyond a joke, I was asked a question, various questions and I asked them honestly, one of which was about people born here being proud of British histroy and culture etc, the other was why am I do not embrace irish culture etc AND my answers have absolutely nothing to do with 'oh yous have no culture and my culture is better than yours'. Please stop bordering on the MOPE attaitude.
Fair enough points BA.
Believe it or not, my life and my thinking is how would I feel if the this or that happened to me.
BA again not once have I had this attitude, I explained why I am not irish so need to embrace its culture if I choose not to, we have debated why economically we are better off with the UK and we have debated the prices for things in Dublin compared with London. Why has all this crap been through back at me such as Jim's comments about me not identifying with my neighbours and you saying about culturual triumphalism?? I am very much into Chinese medicene and oriental cooking, and I am fascinated by how advanced China for example has been for centuries etc. Now is that culturual triumphalism over the UK or anyother country or am I simply stating facts? I was in a bad car smash a while back and attended physiotherapy for treatment which usually left me alot worse than what I was when I went in, yet a few sessions of Acupuncture within the NHS had made immense steps to easing my pain. Absolutley amazing and to think this has been done for a very long time makes it even more amazing. Please stop the mope line of thinking and if Ireland had what Britain has and Britain had what Ireland has I would have no problem saying so.
BA Ireland may have those things and I know there has been many great writers/poets etc but there is nothing that I can think of could compare to what I have said to do with the UK. Only along historical lines then no country can compare IMHO to the countries within the bible, very few countries could compare historically with the likes of Egypt or say the Aztecs etc.
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Post by Jim on Nov 6, 2009 20:15:48 GMT
Right Wasp, so those loyalists that said they joined paramilitaries because of Ian Paisley are lying? David Ervine was lying when he said Paisley was actively involved in the UWC strikes run by loyalist paramilitaries? Aye, dead on. The DUP certainly arent open to Irishness, they're pretty backward in that regard. Regarding the public sector argument, I am not talking about what may or may not happen, I am talking about what IS happening, or have you ignored the warnings from the British Government that they want to remove a lot of the public sector reliability in NI? Its also a goal of the DUP, SF, SDLP and UUP. I wouldnt pish on the beach club mate  Right, so your saying that London is cheaper than other places in the UK? Like where? Certainly not cheaper than Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Belfast.. all the major cities in the UK. Lets be honest here, its well known that London is up and above the rest when it comes to prices. I'm not aware if they did seek BRitains assistance. I already told you that Ireland did give assistance. You have constantly denied it anytime it came up though and prefer to bring out words like "nazi collaborator", its a joke. We've made it very clear before those who worked with Germans did so out of their own convictions, not because they believed in nazi ideology like you would have us believe. Hold on a second here. Unless you've forgotten, Irelands history was part of Britains history. IReland was part of the UK when the Empire was there and when the major events happened right up until 1922. So what are you on about? If IRelands history is a sad and divided one then it reflects British history which has been as divided as any other. You could be identifying with the culture of the island you were born on, the people, the music, the modern culture, its rich literary history and the fact the theres not one country on earth that dislike the Irish! If thats a sad culture, then I'm proud to be sad. Now, I'm not saying you should be, in the end I cant make you, but identifying with Irishness is not mutually exclusive to identifying with your Britishness. Theres plenty about British culture I like. Well Wasp considering Asians originated on the other side of the world with a vastly different culture, and you were born down the street or across the road or beside another estate that was "catholic", I would hardly think thats a fair or reasonable comparison. No ones better looking than me But yes, sometimes I do get the impression from unionists that those who arent their "creed" are aliens. Mainly from the old fogeys of the unionist population. Not at all from people my own age, though. Its also extremely unfair trying to compare Dublin to London in regards to "prestige". London was the center of the world for many decades, it is one of 4 world cities along with New York, Paris, and Tokyo, and is arguably the most important of them all. Dublin was under the rule of London for many centuries so it would be impossible to build a city to compare with that. Not even the Germans can do it with Berlin. Why would Dublin have things to visit such as Buckingham Palace and Windsor in the first place? Its the capital of a Republic, not a Kingdom. I'm also unsure about the "rich and colourful history" of the Royal family, unless you want to celebrate incest. Infact I find the idea of monarchy distasteful as do many British. So instead of playing "who has the bigger dick" with the capital of England and the capital of the ROI, why not look for the positives in both eh? I also noticed you mentioned one of the best things about "Britain" is the Premier League; what PL is that Wasp? The English one? Thats not British, its English, the fans see it as purely English and its one of THEIR big prides, besides something like 60% of the players are foreign. Scottish and Welsh teams bar Cardiff and Swansea have their own leagues, as do we. |
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Post by Wasp on Nov 6, 2009 20:51:29 GMT
Jim Hume said and done things that incited nationalists, does this mean he was a recruitment officer for the ira?? Regarding sf/ira's aspiration then they will rightfully oppose it, its called politics Jim where eachside has to give to receive etc, you know the score. I support cutbacks but you know that the public sector even with cut backs is still a major source of emplyment here and will remain so. But many would. I am saying in certain aspects it certainly is and others it is every bit as cheap. The only place that comes close to the prices would be Brimingham regarding bargains and eating out. Years ago London was a dear hole, when I took my parents a few years ago they couldnt believe how cheap it was compared to what it used to be like and it is as cheap and on some things cheaper. But of course there are those places that are much more expensive. Jim you can travel all day on rail and bus in London for about £5.50, what other city can offer such extensive travel, covering a large area for that price. They did concerning if Germany were to attack/invade. Err Jim I quoted from HistoryIreland. Ireland as a country Jim, although it is very much a young country. Did I say it was a sad culture because I dont remember ever saying that? I like Irish music, I have loads of irish folk and country music so what are you on about? Again I have said about irish dancing, irish music so what are you really on about?? It doesnt matter where they originate, if they were born here then they are as British as me. Yeh yeh ;D Nah we are just misunderstood. Think you have backed my points here, better than I did. I said anything like that and I named more as well, not just Royalty. It has a rich and colourful history and it has its downside like any family, I am very much proud of our Royal family which is the envy of many nations/people especially the closest one to our borders. Jim stop twisting things, I challenged your point on Dublin and Londond concerning the cost of things, so please dont difflect from that and have me out to be some kind of anti-dublin fanatic. Its still part of what is great about Britishness and the premier league is within that. |
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Post by Jim on Nov 6, 2009 23:22:04 GMT
To be honest, yes. It does. Who mentioned SFs aspirations? SFs brand of Irishness is not the only brand of Irishness, its not even remotely close. The DUP have done all they can to hold any progress for the Irish language in its tracks and we have ministers that refuse to show their faces (as part of their job) at Gaelic games, the biggest spectator sport in Northern Ireland. In general, the DUP have no love for anything remotely considered Irish. They're reactionary to it. FFS I remember listening to someone in the DUP complaining that UTV show GAA highlights and that it wasnt British so had no place on TV. That lot havent a bloody clue. It will for a few years, yes, but eventually it wont be. Lets be honest, the Conservatives WILL be the next UK Government, and it'll probably mean more seats in the assembly for the UUP branch of the Conservatives, with big time funding going into them. They'll probably even overtake the DUP. That means a single or similar policy on the public sector from both Westminster and Stormont. Conservative politicians do not like public sectors, they'll be doing away with the vast majority of it in favour of privatisation. Right, Wasp, I've been living in Manchester for a few years now, I travel a LOT around England, my brother is up in Newcastle, I've mates in (and from) London, Birmingham, Leicester, Leeds, and I go to Glasgow every now and again for the football. I also travel quite a bit around England watching City play away when the money allows. London has been consistently more expensive than ANYWHERE in England outside its surrounding counties. The only place that is similar to London is Edinbugh. The only cheap thing about London is the transport, and only if you live fairly close to London city itself, meaning the tube. You can travel up Europes busiest bus route, the backbone of Manchester, for 80p. In London the same distance would be at least £3 if you didnt take the tube. No other city can offer cheaper travel because other than Glasgow, no other city has an underground system! Manchester uses buses and trams and trains to get across greater manchester, the trams are expensive at that, but the buses arent. Same in every other city in England really. As for as living over there, I pay £220 a month for a room in a 4 bedroom house. In London I'd be looking at nearly £350! I was planning on moving to London eventually until the rent put me off. When you get a student loan and grant, you're given an extra £4000 or something if you go to university in London just to cope with the extra expenses. HistoryIreland isnt the gospel mate, I dont trust any source other than CAIN actually. I use HistoryIreland a lot and I can point out plenty of articles that I dont think are up to scratch, and are mildly sensationalist. Ireland as a country has a violent and sad history if you include the north. The Republic had a civil war due to the arrangements of the treaty, has England not had civil wars? Has England not had race riots, strikers rioting during the 80s? Ireland hasnt had much of a violent history other than what happened in the north. You said it had a sad history; history and culture reflect each other. You cant have culture without history, and you cant have history without culture. You know what I'm on about! We've already established you do not consider yourself Irish, its a bit more important than having a niece who does Irish dancing and listening to IRish music; that alone does not define Irishness imo, thats like saying Morris dancing defines what it is to be English. What are you misunderstood about? I didnt back any points, I pointed it out that its an unfair argument. Have I dismissed Londons importance or prestige? No, I've maybe discussed it a bit but I know full well how important London is. Its unfair to try and compare that to a city that was for centuries under the rule of London, and only been standing on its own feet for a couple of generations. You certainly make yourself out to be a bit anti-Dublin. Maybe its just the unionist mentality that anything south of Armagh is alien. To be honest, I feel little affinity with London at all, they feel foreign to me, yet thats not the case in the Northern cities of England. Way too arrogant for my liking |
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