Is there a sustained threat from the RIRA/CIRA

[Harry]

So what needs doing to combat the threat of dissidents?? Will we see a SF rally??

[Harry]

Apr 16, 2009 15:18:03 GMT @setanta said:

Apr 16, 2009 14:30:12 GMT Harry said:

So what needs doing to combat the threat of dissidents?? Will we see a SF rally??

no you wont see an anti-RIRA/CIRA rally from Sinn Féin because it would be overkill.

I think it's been said here what is to be done about the CIRA/RIRA already. Main thng is not to go in mob handed,

Overkill. What do you term as overkill?? As in they aren't enough of a threat to cause a rally??

[Harry]

They are the biggest threat to lasting peace. I want to see actions from those within the Republican community. So far all i've seen is those trying to hush it up and close their eyes and hope it will go away.

If they carry on and ultimately force my community into retaliation then the blame will lay at the doors of those who stood by and crossed their fingers. I can't see anymore my community can do to help, we've already withstood one onslaught of innocent soldiers and police. I can't see the same restraint being shown if it carries on. Yes i know that is exactly what they want but i'm afraid that is exactly what they will get.

Now is the time for the Republican community to stand up and show that this is not in their name. If they don't, well it says alot to me

[Wasp]

But what's missing from that equation is that there is genuine movement for equality for Nationlists in all spheres of society.

Zzzzzzzz get me a bucket, instead of playing the most oppressed people ever card, why not try you's oppressed the most people ever.

[Wasp]

well that's a bit not true WASP, we never had an Empire or people to oppress.

What??Well you never had a nation either until the British united you and civilized the various kingdoms.

No you just had your church run your country and abused thousands of children and young women, you had them thrwon into laundries where there conditions were inhuman and yet these same churchs have people still flocking to them. If that was anyother organisation there would be many prosecutions from the top down but not with the catholic church who ruled Ireland.

Now onto republicanism, you didnt oppress people you just drove them from their homes, kidnapped, tortured and executed them, dragging people from their beds and shooting them infront of there children, forcing people to become suicide bombers, targeting men, women and children, and dont forget the ira are on record as commiting the most abuse against children. Then if you look at the Protestants driven form the republic etc you will see that you have no grounds whatsoever to talk about being oppressed or mistreated.

[earl]

Firstly I want to condemn the cowardly murders that took place. I was sickened to my stomach when I heard of them.

Secondly, I want to acknowledge the concerns highlighted here by unionist posters, and I do share some of those concerns.

AFD,
You've made some great points and I'd agree with most of what you have said.

Harry,
You asked what can be done. One thing which shouldn't be done is to allow such incidents to drive a wedge between those who are on the side of peace under the GFA. Everyone needs to show a united front against anyone who has this kind of out-dated attitude. I agree with AFD's assessment that this recession coupled with a political limbo will provide fertile ground for dissidents on both sides to recruit those who are too young to remember the worst. Once the tit-for tat cycle of violence starts off, it's very hard to stop. One thing that has changed in comparing now with the early 70's is that bot the Irish and British governments are working together and security agencies are working together. There is no void or grey area there anymore to help fan flames.

WASP,
You have been making a strong contribution to this thread. Please do not spoil your hard work with silly remarks as those in your last post.

[Jim]

Apr 17, 2009 10:22:49 GMT Wasp said:

well that's a bit not true WASP, we never had an Empire or people to oppress.

What??Well you never had a nation either until the British united you and civilized the various kingdoms.

"Civilised", what is civilised to you?

[Wasp]

WASP,
You have been making a strong contribution to this thread. Please do not spoil your hard work with silly remarks as those in your last post.

Sometimes it gets hard to stomach hearing about the constant mope brigade who ignore the very things they supported which are much worse than the things they moan about. I live here and I see discrimination against Protestants on a near daily basis so it is sickening to hear republicans go on about equality etc considering what they supported and were part of.

Now I have said my piece I will get back on topic.

[Blue Angel]

post 57 must rank as one of the most bizarre pieces I have ever read, a number of historical eras are wilfuly mixed up. The evil Catholic Church you say WASP? What, the same one that gave Henry II permission to 're-civilise' Ireland in it's name? So Ireland was civilised by the British acting with the blessing of the Catholic church.

Please try and read history before offering a perspective on it not the fervid imaginations of those who go on about 'whores of babylon' and 'scarlet women' - which is where this junk seems to be originating.

[An Fear Dubh]

Before we look at tactics to combat (Harry suggested a SF Rally against dissidents), we must know what effect these tactics would be. To use tactics that help build your enemy is not a good tactic.

But first we must look at cause, by that I mean what political situation creates the political climate that helps 'dissident' republicans to grow. I have already pointed out many areas and the type of responses that would feed their growth and development, and ultimately create a popular support base. But what causes 'dissidents' is much deeper than that.

The inability of the DUP and SF to work together in building good government ( at the moment they have difficulty agreeing on anything substantial ) the gains of creating this pact (The GFA) are being lost, to 'dissidents' both green and orange. And a political vacuum forms. SF and the SDLP with the support of the vast majority of Irish Nationalists have agreed to work within the institutions that make up Northern Ireland. In effect parking the political bus that wants to drive on for a United Ireland, so that better social conditions can be created for everyone here. But that bus is still available for 'dissident' republicans to start up and drive all they need is fuel. The new shiny bus of GFA it just sitting doing nothing. There are passengers waiting to be picked up and the shiny bus is fully fueled up but is not moving, the old (United Ireland) bus has no fuel but is being pushed along.

So the BIGGEST threat to lasting peace is NOT 'dissidents' of any colour but the inability to provide good effective government.

I find it strange Harry that you never called for the Unionist community to rise up and have mass rallies to oppose Loyalist groups that refused to participate within the bounds of the GFA. Why is it that only Republicans and Nationalist communities must engage in these witch-hunts?

If we understand what creates and builds 'dissidents' then we should use this knowledge to deprive them of this. But we all recognize that getting a joint approach from the DUP+SF is near impossible.

Now the state is a bit bigger than just the response of the Assembly. So what other tactics would be effective? I have pointed out that a heavy military response (in all its little forms) is like pouring water onto a petrol fire. Internment, Shoot-to-Kill, Torture centerers have all proven to be counter productive in the past. Loyalist pogroms of housing burning, eviction, and random shootings, also were counter productive. In other words they helped build support rather than intimidate support away.

So let us be clear that there is no logical reason for such tactics other than to inflict hurt and pain on a community and not necessarily those who are responsible but at weakest and easiest sections of that community. And by not using these false tactics does not show restraint but it might hint at the beginning of mature analysis.

Let us look at the tactic of mass rallies in the past. First you must have a focal point.
We have seen in Dublin and Belfast and various places marches to the doors of 'drug dealers'. We have seen the occupants come out and say "he does not live here", "This is the wrong house, you want ...up the street", we have seen frightened children inside houses looking out, we have had people coming out and fighting begin. Were they effective? Somewhat but you could not build support against drug dealing based on this tactic, people would question this tactic and thus your objective is undermined. Going to peoples doors is not the way. So the main problem with those protests was the lack of a clear focal point.
Protesting were there is a clear focal point:
Let us take the 'Peace People', they marched in great numbers up the Falls and Shankill. They had rallies outside SF offices. Were they effective? You have to say they were. Did they succeed in their objective? No. Now the answer to that is long and complicated. But ultimately they never attempted to address the core political issues, so we were left with what happens after the peace?
The same will happen here after the mass rally against RIRA/CIRA (but according to Harry not against Loyalists outside of the GFA) What happens to the political stalemate that has given the 'dissident' republicans the room to build? Because unless the DUP+SF work together that void will continue to exist.

Now is the time for us all to stand up and to work together, the onus is not on one community, or one group.

[Wasp]

Apr 18, 2009 7:57:54 GMT Blue Angel said:

post 57 must rank as one of the most bizarre pieces I have ever read, a number of historical eras are wilfuly mixed up. The evil Catholic Church you say WASP? What, the same one that gave Henry II permission to 're-civilise' Ireland in it's name? So Ireland was civilised by the British acting with the blessing of the Catholic church.

Please try and read history before offering a perspective on it not the fervid imaginations of those who go on about 'whores of babylon' and 'scarlet women' - which is where this junk seems to be originating.

Re-read my post concerning the catholic church in Ireland, funny you can only complain about how you have read it and not the facts within it. Name me 1 business in Ireland or organisation that would have got off with abusing thousands of children with very few prosecutions. I have no more to say on the subject on this trhead anyway.

[Wasp]

I find it strange Harry that you never called for the Unionist community to rise up and have mass rallies to oppose Loyalist groups that refused to participate within the bounds of the GFA. Why is it that only Republicans and Nationalist communities must engage in these witch-hunts?

I know this was addressed to Harry but I think even you should know what groups have used extreme violence and which group has killed people. Loyalists have as yet not retalliated to extreme provocation so why are you comparing protesting at those who have publically stated their willingness to kill, those who have carried out these threats etc with those who have not participated fully within the bounds of the gfa. Your comparisons are mind boggling and you are not using like with like to back your points.

[An Fear Dubh]

Now Setanta asked about Loyalists shooting at police at the Whiterock and Drumcree. And what was the difference? And I must admit this one does perplex me as well.

My own observations suggest that although this is Loyalism in action, it is done is support of 'Orangism' (the Orange Order, their right to march etc). And my observations suggest that anything done in support of 'Orangism' is acceptable and deniable by everyone from Unionism/Loyalism/Protestantism. The Orange Order can say with hand on heart, it was not us.

And as we approach the 'marching season' and the great tactical minds that organize these marches. You know that they can be very predictable. And what a great opportunity for 'dissident' republicans to exploit. They can be assured of all the required responses, and what would it take, not very much

[Blue Angel]

WASP I don't wish to derail the thread if you wish to talk about post 57 in detail open a new thread and I will address your points and why they are racist and bigoted (and the massive historical inaccuracies and confusion within them) in such a thread.

[Harry]

AFD, at present only one community is trying to push us back to the dark days. Only one community is currently seeing glorifying graffiti of murders on gable walls. Only one community is struggling with its inner demons of the past. Only one community is doing their best to push us all back to the brink. Only one community has seen people from within their ranks release statements which are an exact replicate of what we heard 30 years ago.

This has nothing to do with Loyalists. This thread has nothing to do with Loyalists. At present i don't see any threat from my community. Although our mainstream organisations are still fully armed, all i have seen from them is incredible restraint and maturity. In terms of getting rid of Loyalist weapons then again blame those warped individuals from within your community who have pretty much put an end to any chance of that happening. It most likely wouldn't of anyway but thanks to the blood thirsty mongrels in your community then Loyalism now has a perfect excuse. They will be thanking them for that cos they were running out of reasons to remain armed....

If a rally isn't the right response then fine, i'll accept it maybe isn't the right thing to do. All i hear from you AFD is pointing out all the obvious mistakes and reasons why the dissidents will gain support. Lets hear something that will help. We can't work miracles, we can't suddenly repair all the socail and economic damge to the community overnight.

If we want to talk about Loyalists and their actions then we should start another thread and not turn this into a tit for tat posting session. I'm all for solutions. If you have any suggestions on what my community can do to help in this situation then i'm all ears. You are right it isn't only a Nationalist fight and we should be here for all the decent folk who desire peace.