Is there a sustained threat from the RIRA/CIRA

[Wasp]

As though the remedy for these cowardly killings would be more cowardly killings? When you say "take action", do you mean the "any catholic will do" type of action?

If you have saw the many heated debates I have had on pulse you will know the answer to that. Never ever as long as I have breath in my body would I support your suggestion.

It's peculiar WASP, that you parallel the purposes and aims of Loyalist Terrorism with the function of the security forces.

Its not peculiar at all, you are taking your opinion based on your political opinion and your opinion on N.Ireland in general. If loyalists were targeting in the republic would you expect the security forces to deal with it?? Would you wander if the security forces were not dealing with it then when would the ira strike back in response?? That is only natural thought to have but it does not mean as you suggest any parallel between loyalist groups and the security forces.

As though violent loyalism was the justice system of last resort? Do you see loyalist paramilitaries as some sort of auxiliary to the British Army/Police?

Again you are jumping the gun concerning my answers. People throughout the world who turn to the police will eventually turn elsewhere if the police are failing, especially when it is a certain community or part of a certain community that is harboiuring and supporting these terrorists. If hoods were constantly targeting peoples homes then it is only natural for people to question when will certain groups who claim to protect that community will step in when all police actions fail.

Do you not acknowledge that Loyalist terrorism is the twin brother of CIRA/RIRA terrorism and that they are both enemies of the people and the security forces.

No I don't. Why did you leave out the ira?

[collina]

Apr 11, 2009 15:54:27 GMT Wasp said:

As though the remedy for these cowardly killings would be more cowardly killings? When you say "take action", do you mean the "any catholic will do" type of action?

If you have saw the many heated debates I have had on pulse you will know the answer to that. Never ever as long as I have breath in my body would I support your suggestion.





Its not peculiar at all, you are taking your opinion based on your political opinion and your opinion on N.Ireland in general. If loyalists were targeting in the republic would you expect the security forces to deal with it?? Would you wander if the security forces were not dealing with it then when would the ira strike back in response?? That is only natural thought to have but it does not mean as you suggest any parallel between loyalist groups and the security forces.

Again you are jumping the gun concerning my answers. People throughout the world who turn to the police will eventually turn elsewhere if the police are failing, especially when it is a certain community or part of a certain community that is harboiuring and supporting these terrorists. If hoods were constantly targeting peoples homes then it is only natural for people to question when will certain groups who claim to protect that community will step in when all police actions fail.

Do you not acknowledge that Loyalist terrorism is the twin brother of CIRA/RIRA terrorism and that they are both enemies of the people and the security forces.

No I don't. Why did you leave out the ira?

Because the IRA are disarmed and finished murdering people. The others (Republicans and Loyalists) are still armed and holding on to the threat of violence. They're also nothing better than drug-dealing cowards, the whole lot of them.

I didn't mean to say you would support killings. I was really trying to find out if you believed that Loyalist terrorism was a legitimate alternative to the forces of law and order.

I understand your argument about people taking the law into their own hand being a worldwide phenomenon. But the truth is that Loyalists groups deal drugs(as do RIRA and CIRA) to their own people. The truth is that, it is those people that need to be removed from their communities. They are not the law and like the CIRA/RIRA, they are nothing more than gangsters masquerading as armies.

I hope the Unionist people stay smart and realise that these Loyalists groups are as much a threat to their country as Republicans

[Wasp]

Because the IRA are disarmed

Even republicans on here dont believe they are fully disarmed and that a weapons werent moved before decommission.

and finished murdering people.

Try telling that to the families of Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney amongst others.

The others (Republicans and Loyalists) are still armed and holding on to the threat of violence.

And as far as loyalists are concerned they are right to do this, but they unlike republicans have not used violence with their weapons.

They're also nothing better than drug-dealing cowards, the whole lot of them.

Please do not leave the ira out of the drug dealing equation as they also were heavily involved in drug dealing amongst other criminal and cowardly behaviour. I think my nopinion on loyalist drug dealers is widely known and something that I am not scared to admit nor hide from the truth of it, can you say the same concerning the ira and drug dealing??

I didn't mean to say you would support killings. I was really trying to find out if you believed that Loyalist terrorism was a legitimate alternative to the forces of law and order.

Then you should ask what you want to know, I have nothing to hide nor do I have any hidden agenda. I see those who are part of any republican group that carries out attacks, those who support them, assist them and fund them as legitimate targets.

I understand your argument about people taking the law into their own hand being a worldwide phenomenon. But the truth is that Loyalists groups deal drugs(as do RIRA and CIRA) to their own people.

The truth is that the ira also do so and are still involved in criminal activity. If you know anything about the drugs trade in N.Ireland right from its shipment to distribution you will know that all sides including the ira are heavily involved. No point you singling out loyalists or the dissidents when the ira are equally guilty, infact they have been at it longer than the rira/cira that you have mentioned.

The truth is that, it is those people that need to be removed from their communities.

By how do you mean removed?? Those who peddle filth have no part in my community and they certainly are not loyalists, they are money grabbing criminals just like any other paramilitry group that peddles drugs including the ira.

They are not the law and like the CIRA/RIRA, they are nothing more than gangsters masquerading as armies.

And what of the ira???

I hope the Unionist people stay smart and realise that these Loyalists groups are as much a threat to their country as Republicans

Are you talking about pretend loyalists who deal in drugs or dedicated loaylsits who are loyal to their country and who are willing if needed to strike back at the rira/cira and the community that is harbouring them and assisting them??

[Jim]

What cracks in the wall are we seeing AFD? I'm not over there anymore, so I can't tell how much support the CIRA and RIRA have, all I can go on is who I know, what they think.

Lets hope the state isn't stupid enough to do what it did in the 70s and 80s. The Brits were the greatest propaganda tool the Provos ever had.

[Jim]

Apr 12, 2009 1:14:18 GMT Wasp said:

Because the IRA are disarmed

Even republicans on here dont believe they are fully disarmed and that a weapons werent moved before decommission.



Try telling that to the families of Paul Quinn and Robert McCartney amongst others.



And as far as loyalists are concerned they are right to do this, but they unlike republicans have not used violence with their weapons.



Please do not leave the ira out of the drug dealing equation as they also were heavily involved in drug dealing amongst other criminal and cowardly behaviour. I think my nopinion on loyalist drug dealers is widely known and something that I am not scared to admit nor hide from the truth of it, can you say the same concerning the ira and drug dealing??



Then you should ask what you want to know, I have nothing to hide nor do I have any hidden agenda. I see those who are part of any republican group that carries out attacks, those who support them, assist them and fund them as legitimate targets.



The truth is that the ira also do so and are still involved in criminal activity. If you know anything about the drugs trade in N.Ireland right from its shipment to distribution you will know that all sides including the ira are heavily involved. No point you singling out loyalists or the dissidents when the ira are equally guilty, infact they have been at it longer than the rira/cira that you have mentioned.



By how do you mean removed?? Those who peddle filth have no part in my community and they certainly are not loyalists, they are money grabbing criminals just like any other paramilitry group that peddles drugs including the ira.



And what of the ira???

I hope the Unionist people stay smart and realise that these Loyalists groups are as much a threat to their country as Republicans

Are you talking about pretend loyalists who deal in drugs or dedicated loaylsits who are loyal to their country and who are willing if needed to strike back at the rira/cira and the community that is harbouring them and assisting them??

I dunno Wasp! We (as in me and mates) always got drugs from the Village or thats where other people got them, who sold them to us. I've heard plenty of times some republicans were working with some loyalists on selling drugs in areas they couldnt, was years ago when I heard that. Any Republican that I know personally has no love for drugs, even if their family members are into dealing, I don't know if thats the same with you lot, probably isnt far from it, can't picture the loyalists that care about their community bringing in drugs to their areas, its the people that don't give a shite and want to make money from it and use the abbreviated names of organisations as backup. The dealers over here would give their left bollock to be able to do that, its a lot of protection, puts people off trying to fuck them over.

Doesn't particularly mean the UDA or UVF or PIRA are actively involved as organisations with the goal of trafficking and dealing drugs, its members within it that have no moral obligations to themselves that do it. A lot of peope like to forget that formor "terrorists" from either organisations that have gave up their fight are doing more for their own communities than some government sponsored schemes are or than the police are.

[Wasp]

I've heard plenty of times some republicans were working with some loyalists on selling drugs in areas they couldnt, was years ago when I heard that.

Jim through my volunteer work I really got my eyes opened concerning drug dealing and trafficing in N.Ireland, I meet, talk to and listen to people from bothsides who are either taking or dealing drugs or both, some have stopped and none of them has any political agenda to cast stones at the otherside. Concerning what you said above I know 1 drug dealer who sold for the ira, he moved to a mainly Unionist area and sold for the uvf. He got into a bit of trouble over money with the uvf and he went to the ira, who then went to the uvf and this man was then given some more time to pay back money owed. The whole thing is disgusting and it makes the claim of fighting for Ireland or Ulster an even bigger joke.

When the drugs leave colombia they usually goto Jamaica, then onto Spain then to either London or Amsterdam, they then make there way to Belfast where they are distributed between republican and loyalist paramilitaries and some criminal gangs. It is members of these gangs who got shot by the ira or uvf etc becaused they wouldnt give them their cut.

Any Republican that I know personally has no love for drugs, even if their family members are into dealing,

Jim I know republicans who are well into their drugs in the sameway I know loyalists are well into their drugs. West Belfast is full of drugs, as is other parts of Belfast.

I don't know if thats the same with you lot, probably isnt far from it, can't picture the loyalists that care about their community bringing in drugs to their areas,

They may claim to be loyalists and they may be loyalists in the sense they want N.I to remain British etc but for me they are scumbags and its the same with republican dealers who arfe republicans yet peddle this filth amongst their communities.

its the people that don't give a shite and want to make money from it and use the abbreviated names of organisations as backup. The dealers over here would give their left bollock to be able to do that, its a lot of protection, puts people off trying to fuck them over.

I agree to an extent but you have to remember all the criminality republican and loyalists are involved in to raise money for their cause and drugs played a major part in that, to think different is very naive.

Doesn't particularly mean the UDA or UVF or PIRA are actively involved as organisations with the goal of trafficking and dealing drugs, its members within it that have no moral obligations to themselves that do it.

They are actively involved, they make financial gain from it and they make sure they have their areas carved up between them. I know members of these groups do it to line their own pocket and do dealing for their own gain but the groups they represent still get their money from them ontop of their own drug dealing. I think I already told you on this forum before about a man I personally know who was held at gunpoint by the ira because he hadnt given them their cut of his profits. Jim outside of Belfast here is a few durg areas and the main players, Ballymena is split roughly evenly between republicans and loyalists, Coleraine it is republicans yet a mainly Unionist town, same with Ballymoney and Antrim. Ballycastle which is largely nationalist it is loyalists who are the main players. The otherside does deal as well in these places but I am only pointing out the main players.

A lot of peope like to forget that formor "terrorists" from either organisations that have gave up their fight are doing more for their own communities than some government sponsored schemes are or than the police are.

There certainly are people who have turned there backs on violence and are working for the better of their community

[An Fear Dubh]

On the drugs issue: It is obvious that there is condemnation of drugs and drug trafficking, from all sides including the Republican and UDA leadership. And I have no doubt that all leadership would like to rid our community of drugs. But both Jim and Wasp are correct and the evidence is there if you want to see it.

Jim said, "Its the people that don't give a shite and want to make money from it and use the abbreviated names of organisations as backup. The dealers over here would give their left bollock to be able to do that, its a lot of protection, puts people off trying to fuck them over."

And Wasp said, "I agree to an extent but you have to remember all the criminality republican and loyalists are involved in to raise money for their cause and drugs played a major part in that, to think different is very naive."

I do not want to go down the road of telling personal experience that is unsupportable in a forum like this. But those who live in these communities know who is doing what. And that if there was real determination drug availability would be pushed into very dark and deeply hidden places. But for various reasons it is allowed to prosper.

But I would like to return to the heading of this thread. And to look at the how things are developing. Jim I believe we will repeat the same mistakes again. If we look at the past we will see the same things happening again. If we look at PIRA in 1969 they had little support and they drew their membership from the right-wing element of the IRA 1950's campaign. But as events changed in the north, house burnings, attacks of Civil Rights marches, young militants of all political (mostly of no political) view point joined their ranks. In the early 1960's the Orange Order was dwindling, and as Unionism felt threatened, so too did young men join the ranks of the UDA.

In large working class areas and towns, and I am reluctant to say Nationalist, as it is happening in Unionist areas too, but my personal knowledge is limited in those areas. For many reasons the PSNI dot not respond to crime in the same way as they do on the 'Malone Road' (an extreme example to make my point). I have traveled across England and you see the same thing in large working class estates there. But here the difference is that this lack of response has political ramifications. If we have crowds/gangs/mobs of youth hanging around and mixed in this is a smattering of criminal elements, youths that come from families that were 'involved', but most are just 'hanging'. Along come a rare PSNI patrol, and starts taking names and disposing of drink from under age drinkers, or of drinkers in areas that have council bans on drinking in public.

Do these youths view this as the PSNI doing their job in normal society? If like Wasp has said, the PSNI are riddled with RUC personnel and the attitudes that prevailed in the RUC. The nationalist youths might also hear Sectarian language. A recent report from the PSNI recently admitted that in Strabane more people were stopped and searched than in the rest of the north put together!! This practice was supposed to be phased out and only used with legitimate cause. Is it then a wonder that the CIRA/RIRA have better support in that area. Again in the Craigavon Area (includes Portadown and Lugan), in the same report there were high levels of stop and search, with little accompanying arrests. And again we have an area that CIRA/RIRA has greater support.

I doubt we will have widespread internment again. But we might have selective arrests and individuals held under the new 'anti-terrorist' laws for long periods. As the arrest of Colin Duffy showed. We then had Monica McWilliams expressing 'concern' over the length of detention and the conditions of detention. If such actions continue will this gather support from human rights groups?

Wasp says that in his opinion Unionism is stronger than before. If he changes that to Loyalism or PUL which is what I think he meant, then I will agree. It depends on what you mean by Unionism or Loyalism. For myself Unionism represents the likes of the DUP and UUP (or whatever they are called now after linking with the Tories) and their hard core voters. For myself Loyalism represents the UDA, UVF their supporters and working class links. I think that the DUP are fragile, and are under pressure from the TUV. How much can they withstand before pushing for a greater state response is open to speculation. None of which can be proved either way.

The other factor to consider is, How fragile is Sinn Féin? In some quarters it has been suggested that SF have peaked electorally (in the north). The SDLP still need to do an awful lot of work to turn things around but they will make gains. Will this be at the expense of SF? Now if some elements are drifting away from SF support and either dropping out or moving to CIRA/RIRA how will this effect SF votes? So SF find themselves being scratched (not big enough to be a squeeze) at from two fronts. In the past PIRA tried to deal with this by having 'nights of the long knives'. This option is no longer available to them, so what is the alternative? Maybe to concede to DUP calls for a tougher state response to 'dissident republicans'??

[Wasp]

But I would like to return to the heading of this thread. And to look at the how things are developing. Jim I believe we will repeat the same mistakes again. If we look at the past we will see the same things happening again. If we look at PIRA in 1969 they had little support and they drew their membership from the right-wing element of the IRA 1950's campaign. But as events changed in the north, house burnings, attacks of Civil Rights marches, young militants of all political (mostly of no political) view point joined their ranks. In the early 1960's the Orange Order was dwindling, and as Unionism felt threatened, so too did young men join the ranks of the UDA.

Again I am going to avoid commenting on this.

In large working class areas and towns, and I am reluctant to say Nationalist, as it is happening in Unionist areas too, but my personal knowledge is limited in those areas. For many reasons the PSNI dot not respond to crime in the same way as they do on the 'Malone Road' (an extreme example to make my point).

While I can see what you are trying to say here I think the Malone road is an unfair example. How many youths live in the Malone road crammed together, how many hang around street corners with bags of drink, glue and drugs?? I think in this situation we have to comapre like with like and I am sure many better off people will tell you stories about how they were robbed and it took the police ages to call out, this happens in all areas but it is highlighted more in working class areas because the criminal and violent element is alot higher.

I have traveled across England and you see the same thing in large working class estates there. But here the difference is that this lack of response has political ramifications.

The lack of response also has political ramifications in England afd so I strongly disagree with you here.

If we have crowds/gangs/mobs of youth hanging around and mixed in this is a smattering of criminal elements, youths that come from families that were 'involved', but most are just 'hanging'. Along come a rare PSNI patrol, and starts taking names and disposing of drink from under age drinkers, or of drinkers in areas that have council bans on drinking in public.

Concerning the rare psni patrol then if that is the case it is understandable why the police may be reluctant to go into republican areas as often as other areas because of years of false calls and ambushes. Concerning the rest I support the police doing this but not to the extent that is simple harrassement of young people who copuld very well be innocent, then again it is difficult for the police to tell the difference between youths who are doing nothing wrong and those that are highly likely to do something wrong.

Do these youths view this as the PSNI doing their job in normal society?

Youths such as those you described dont view anything as a normal society, many feel alienated by their own communities, many come from violent or broken homes etc so the problem here is much more complicated.

If like Wasp has said, the PSNI are riddled with RUC personnel and the attitudes that prevailed in the RUC.

Concerning the RUC I fully supported them and wish they were still here. Besides that I said in response to setanta's invalid points that the psni have the intelligence they have because it has been passed on from the RUC and as we all know some RUC members continued into the psni.

The nationalist youths might also hear Sectarian language.

Loyalist youths might also hear sectarian language.

A recent report from the PSNI recently admitted that in Strabane more people were stopped and searched than in the rest of the north put together!!

I dont know the facts of the report but I find it perfectly understandable considering Strabane and surrounding areeas has high dissident support with high dissident activity. If it were loyalists then I am sure nationalists would understand and want the police to be doing the samething.

This practice was supposed to be phased out and only used with legitimate cause.

Especially after recent events then I would be against this being phased out, dont blame the security forces for these stops, blame the terrorists.

Is it then a wonder that the CIRA/RIRA have better support in that area. Again in the Craigavon Area (includes Portadown and Lugan), in the same report there were high levels of stop and search, with little accompanying arrests. And again we have an area that CIRA/RIRA has greater support.

Afd that is very misleading and you are suggesting the reason they have much support in these areas is because of police stops etc, the support was already there and that is why the police had to adopt this stratedgy.

I doubt we will have widespread internment again. But we might have selective arrests and individuals held under the new 'anti-terrorist' laws for long periods. As the arrest of Colin Duffy showed.

Duffy is hardly some poor innocent bystander arrested for no reason, we all know many many guilty people walked free from court on technicalities or the withdrawal fo witness statements due to intimidation. Why anyone would be concerned at duffys arrest and the arrset of those like him is beyond me, would republicans have the same attitude and thinking if it was the likes of Adair or M. Stone who was arrested??

We then had Monica McWilliams expressing 'concern' over the length of detention and the conditions of detention. If such actions continue will this gather support from human rights groups?

Human rights groups would be much better looking at the rights of those killed and targeted rather than the rights of those who carried out these attacks, assisted them or supported them.

For myself Loyalism represents the UDA, UVF their supporters and working class links.

Not at all, there are many loyalsits who do not support or had little support for the uda/uvf, there are also many loyalists who are not from working class backgrounds.

I think that the DUP are fragile, and are under pressure from the TUV. How much can they withstand before pushing for a greater state response is open to speculation. None of which can be proved either way.

I will be voting TUV, but as a protest vote more than anything.

The other factor to consider is, How fragile is Sinn Féin? In some quarters it has been suggested that SF have peaked electorally (in the north). The SDLP still need to do an awful lot of work to turn things around but they will make gains. Will this be at the expense of SF?

If I was in a borderline area I would vote sdlp to keep sf out as way of tactical voting. Saying that the sdlp seem to be making progress in the political arena with statements that I as a working class member welcomes. If I had a choice between the sdlp and the dup I would vote for the sdlp.

Now if some elements are drifting away from SF support and either dropping out or moving to CIRA/RIRA how will this effect SF votes? So SF find themselves being scratched (not big enough to be a squeeze) at from two fronts. In the past PIRA tried to deal with this by having 'nights of the long knives'. This option is no longer available to them, so what is the alternative? Maybe to concede to DUP calls for a tougher state response to 'dissident republicans'??

Intersting post, now I do not want to go down the road by saying if the dissidents threatened sf and there ilk it would be very much deserved because it would be. But that would be difflecting from your post afd. If dissidents are a real threat to the lives of other republicans such as sf memebrs then what repsonse do you as a republican think sf should have??

[Harry]

I'm very concerned by recent events and fear that young impressionable kids from working class republican areas will find the ideology being offered by the dissidents somewhat appealing. What ideology?? Well a more straightforward attitude of Brits Out by any means. The idea of fighting the enemy, protecting your area etc etc......all the same things that the IRA used as a mechanism to entice young recruits.

I see a sharp rise in punishment attacks in Republican areas. Another attempt to show locals how the IRA and SF have let their community down and how these dissidents will help protect the community from the scourge of drugs and general anti-social menace. I think the dissidents are being very cute and are playing all the right hands. I'm not from a republican area so have no idea how these actions are going down with locals but i can see how these so called dissidents could soon take hold.

They are getting so confident that they attack SF offices and even the homes of SF members. I hear all this talk of little support but i see very little action to back these notions up. Instead i see more and more Pro RIRA/CIRA slogans appearing on gable walls. Sure this may well be the actions of disgruntled teens but it seems to be spreading. An attack on SF members would of been unheard of within the republican community but we see houses attacked and only last year witnessed a SF councillor being attacked in Ballymena last year by well known dissidents within Dunclug???

SF/IRA are over the barrell. I'm sure as hell that some provos are chumping at the bit to dish out a little justice to these dissidents but they can't. SF have made the decision to support the GFA and all the associated bodies that come with it. An IRA put down of this uprising would most likely collapse the whole agreement so its seems SF are sitting ducks. This will be a real test of SF and the republican community in general. We will see how much the community want peace and how much support there actually is for these dissidents.

SF have held many rallies for various things in the past. Is the time right to bring the republican community out onto the streets to show these people that they are not wanted within the community. Surely an action like this would prove what the community stood for and dispel the dissidents claims?? Are the days of rallies over or are SF slightly worried about their own position. Its ok for SF to say lets wait till elections and we'll see then but the RIRA/CIRA won't have any credible canditates. We know that but we don't know what is going on within the estates. Loyalists always had more support with the community than there political mandate indicated. Instead people voted safe and stuck with big house Unionism maybe due to the lack of conviction in showing their true colours??

As a Loyalist i'm worried because perhaps fuelled by paranoia i believe that these dissidents are growing in strength rapidly. I'm afraid that our areas will come under attack. I see OO halls attacked with high frequency, i see a rise in attacks at interface areas, i fear what the marching season will bring if these dissidents use it to forward their own agenda. I can see parades being attacked and my worst fear is that members of my community will be drawn into tit for tat attacks.

We must not respond to anything that these people throw at us. We must support the forces of law and order and not hinder them by adding to the mayhem. I was encouraged by the meetings that took place between SF and and the UPRG. Keeping channels of communication open between the IRA and Loyalism are vital if we are to see this threat out. These people have nothing to offer anyone. We have fought for 30 years and neither cause was furthered at all. Ireland is not United and the Union still isn't safe.

This is an issue that must be controlled by Republicans. Sure we have apart to play and we must ensure that we don't give these people any fuel by knee jerk reactions but Republicanism must show where it is going and fast.

[An Fear Dubh]

Wasp I take on board a lot of the points you make and accept that my post was very simplistic, and the issue is a lot more complex and with many grey areas. I was just trying to show how support can grow and everyone is caught in the snowball, we are damned if do and damned if we don't.

The lessons from the past have not been understood. I do think there is a link between the large number of stop and searches and support for the CIRA/RIRA in Strabane and other areas. I am not trying to suggest that this one thing increased or created the support. Whether that support existed prior or grew because of, or after is open to further examination. As it maybe suggested that such a strategy of stop and search never ceased after the GFA was signed.
But we can see little evidence brought before the courts that justify the large number of stop and searches. Like so many other 'security measures' I wonder what is the point of them? They are obviously not effective measures at getting arrests. So what is the point if not to arrest? We are told by the PSNI that the 'dissidents' are few in number. So how many in Strabane or traveling through? Are we expected to believe that all these stop and searches were full members/supporters of 'dissidents'? The logical assumption must be that a large number of these stop and searches were ordinary people with little or no support for the 'dissidents'. Now while some might understand that some disturbance to our daily lives is necessary to maintain a peace. There comes a point when you think that some actions are excessive. While others from an early stage will resent this disturbance. And the 'dissident' propagandists could use this to create political capital. Why give them this opportunity?
For myself this has loyalist logic - the sole purpose of this strategy is to punish or inflict discomfort onto the whole nationalist community of Strabane, because they are harboring 'dissidents'. Loyalism use this logic to justify their attacks on innocent victims. I do not believe the logic is justifiable. You can not attack a whole community because some few individuals are acting outside the law. Most within in this community have no control over the actions of these individuals.

The issue of human rights and the powers of detention have nothing to do with the politics or the name of the individual. Society decides what is acceptable and governments are bound by international treaties to observe such rights. We have witnessed sanctions against countries that breech such treaties. Governments try to bend the laws to suit their own political agendas. And I would hardly call Monica McWilliams a republican! And human rights groups do look at all political murders. But under the law everyone is treated equal and there can not be selective treatment.

[An Fear Dubh]

Harry - It is difficult to judge the growth and support of 'dissident' republicans. I can only really talk about support within Belfast. The IRSP/INLA seem more active in recruiting and community politics. This is because of the political vacuum that exists in nationalist areas. By that I mean the reluctance or caution of the PSNI to respond to anti-social elements. While there has been a rise in punishment attacks, these attacks have been on the lower orders of the anti-social elements and not on the hard-core elements. Coupled with this is the close association of some 'dissidents' to the hard-core elements. Local people are not blinded by this selective approach, and the support gained is insignificant to justify the risk involved. But there is no doubt that eventually they will face up to this issue.

I know of graffiti on walls in Twinbrook, Poleglass, and Lenadoon. Discounting the stuff done by the INLA, the rest is done under the cover of darkness, the spelling is poor, and usually looks hurriedly done with a spray can. This is not the actions of people confident of the response of their community.

A common ploy by the Adams/McGuiness camp is to hint or suggest at a master plan and that it must remain secret or else the enemy will spoil the plan. But this plan will lead to a United Ireland. Recently McGuiness rolled out this ploy again, when he said that he is working towards a United Ireland in 1914 and not 1916 as Adams had suggested after the signing of the GFA.

I would like someone to show me the evidence that points to a United Ireland in the next 10 years!! It is my firm belief that a United Ireland is achievable through democratic and peaceful progress but that it is dependent on convincing a large majority of 'loyalist/unionists' that their best interests are served in such a body. And that is a long way off.

Harry said, "Ireland is not United, and the Union isn't safe." This is the Limbo of the GFA. Harry suggested that the issue of 'dissident' republicans is an issue solely to be controlled by Republicans. I do not agree, I think 'dissidents' of all colours (green & orange) exist because of the lack of leadership and forward movement. We need to see politics working, we need to see co-operation across the communities, we need to see the devolution of policing and justice, we need to see an agreed new education plan that benefits the children, and not delayed or deferred decisions that mean we continue with the old and proven failed system ones. We need a Housing strategy that is sustainable in the future not one that is built to collapse. So the onus for all this is on Republicans but not solely because we have agreed a form of government that involves a joint share of responsibility. Those that huff and puff and try to defer and side-step such issues only create space for 'dissidents' to grow.

[Harry]

The PSNI can't win. If they don't use their powers then they allow those who would seek to send us back to the old days a free rein. If they do use such powers then they are accused of driving people into the dissidents clutches??

Republicans still haven't grasped the whole idea of normal policing. The whole idea of if you ave nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. They still claim victimhood, harrassment etc etc. The PSNI will target those areas were the dissidents are most active. For all those innocent people who have been stopped by Police then they should be hounding out those who have brought the attention to the area.

When the PSNI take time to repsond to calls then blame the bloody filth that wait in the shadows to murder innocent cops responding to an emergency. The police can't be blamed for this. These dissidents don't want normality. They are hell bent on keeping the Republican community in the dark ages where the rule of law is by the barrell of a gun.

If these people truly have no support then get them out. Help the PSNI rid your community of these men and women. The world is moving on and those who still seek, harbour or support the men of violence will be left behind.

[Wasp]

Recently McGuiness rolled out this ploy again, when he said that he is working towards a United Ireland in 1914 and not 1916 as Adams had suggested after the signing of the GFA.

1914/1916 are we moving back in time?? ;D

I would like someone to show me the evidence that points to a United Ireland in the next 10 years!!

There is none.

[Wasp]

Wasp I take on board a lot of the points you make and accept that my post was very simplistic, and the issue is a lot more complex and with many grey areas. I was just trying to show how support can grow and everyone is caught in the snowball, we are damned if do and damned if we don't.

I understand what you are saying and agree in part. Thing is if we goto every city in the UK and you will see much hatred for the police by the type of young people we have been talking about in working class areas. When they get their names taken when they are up to no good it is because everyone hates them, the police only want to harrass them etc, but they all forget the reasons there names were taken in the first place. Its the same when you have mixed company here but when the people are only from one side then the claims of its because we are Catholic, nationalist/republican or Protestant/loyalist etc. Only an excuse to suit young people in rebelling against civil society.

The lessons from the past have not been understood. I do think there is a link between the large number of stop and searches and support for the CIRA/RIRA in Strabane and other areas. I am not trying to suggest that this one thing increased or created the support. Whether that support existed prior or grew because of, or after is open to further examination. As it maybe suggested that such a strategy of stop and search never ceased after the GFA was signed.

The support certainly was there before these stop and searches, the threat has always been there although it is raised then lowered and then raised again. After Omagh the security forces cannot be careful enough.

But we can see little evidence brought before the courts that justify the large number of stop and searches. Like so many other 'security measures' I wonder what is the point of them?

The point of these stop and searches is not only to find weapons and make arrests, they happen in order to deter attacks and I am quite positive many attacks were thwarted during the troubles due to this happening. The police may get intelligence that arms are going to be moved to another area so that an attack can be carried out, the info may be vague or not muuch detail so stop and searches are very much needed to counter this.

They are obviously not effective measures at getting arrests. So what is the point if not to arrest?

See answer above. Take intelligence reports on arms that are hidden in an estate, the intelligence may not be exact so several houses need to be searched, or perhaps the intelligence is exact but by going straight to that house may expose the informant so several are searched.

We are told by the PSNI that the 'dissidents' are few in number. So how many in Strabane or traveling through? Are we expected to believe that all these stop and searches were full members/supporters of 'dissidents'?

During the troubles I was stopped many times in whatever town I lived in, I had my car searched a number of times and we were all told that intelligence pointed to an ira attack heading for the area so security was stepped up. I am hardly a candidate for the ira, nor am I a candidate to attack my community with bombs but I was still stopped and searched. As frustrating as it could be at times it certainly made me feel a bit safer knowing that the security forces were doing what they can and hopefully put off any planned bomb or gun attack. When these patrols happened less and less people worried more and more that the ira will maybe plant a bomb now as security measures have eased.

The logical assumption must be that a large number of these stop and searches were ordinary people with little or no support for the 'dissidents'.

See answer above, apart from that if police were stopping in a uvf area then it would be a logical assumption that a large number stopped were uvf supporters, its the same with the Strabane area.

Now while some might understand that some disturbance to our daily lives is necessary to maintain a peace. There comes a point when you think that some actions are excessive. While others from an early stage will resent this disturbance. And the 'dissident' propagandists could use this to create political capital.

What we need to be telling our communities is the fact that it is the actions of the dissidents that is excessive not the police. If a community complains at measures trying to prevent dissident attacks then that community must have some sympathy for the dissidents. If that community has little support for the dissidents then that community would shop them to the police.

Why give them this opportunity?

Why give the dissidents the opportunity to carry out attacks especailly if intelligence points to an attack being on the way.

For myself this has loyalist logic - the sole purpose of this strategy is to punish or inflict discomfort onto the whole nationalist community of Strabane, because they are harboring 'dissidents'.

This is absolute nonesense, as I said above my community had discomfort inflicted on them because of police check points, but we knew these were to thwart attakcs and we accepted this, we did not blame the police for it we blamed the ira.

Loyalism use this logic to justify their attacks on innocent victims.

Again absolute nonesense, many many loyalists never supported attacks on innocent people, there were those that did and they seen it as retalliation for the ira attacks on innocent people.

I do not believe the logic is justifiable. You can not attack a whole community because some few individuals are acting outside the law. Most within in this community have no control over the actions of these individuals.

Was it just a few in the community when it was the ira and in certain estates to do with now is it just a few individuals??

The issue of human rights and the powers of detention have nothing to do with the politics or the name of the individual. Society decides what is acceptable and governments are bound by international treaties to observe such rights. We have witnessed sanctions against countries that breech such treaties. Governments try to bend the laws to suit their own political agendas. And I would hardly call Monica McWilliams a republican! And human rights groups do look at all political murders. But under the law everyone is treated equal and there can not be selective treatment.

In my eyes those who carried out the recent attacks, those who supported them and assisted them lost all of their human rights compared to a genuine innocent person, they have no right to have the same rights as their victims.

[Jim]

In my eyes those who carried out the recent attacks, those who supported them and assisted them lost all of their human rights compared to a genuine innocent person, they have no right to have the same rights as their victims.

Good thing you don't write international law! Human rights regardless of who the person is, is a fundamental principal of pretty much every modern first world country, or at least it is supposed to be. You can't pick who gets them and who doesn't, unless you're China.