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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2009 13:20:45 GMT
And the likes of myself disagreed and we made those points on loyalist decommisioning, and its not the 6 counties, its N.Ireland.  But we had the Omagh bomb, various protests and riots and further terrorist attacks. I dont understand what you are getting at here, the police througout the trobles knew who the players were or at least the vast majority of them, proof of this is the various meetings between ira terrorists and the British. But knowledge doesn't mean anything within our legal system, many guilty terrorists walked free because of lack of evidence so along with knowledge people have to be caught with undeniable evidence and even then some manage to walk free because of technicalities. It is understandable why much was made of this, for decades sinn fein/ira supported the very same actions of the dissidents, they didn't listen to anyone and even till this day they commemorate the dissidents of the failed border campaign in the 50's where the terrorists then had little support and no mandate. Hypocritical dont you think? Sinn fein/ira helped create these very people who are carrying out these attacks. What was the extent of this compromise?? You talk as thought the psni just appeared and had this information, this info is there because of the bravery of the RUC and the experience of RUC officers who now are in the psni. I wouldnt be so sure about that, 3 deaths in recent times is not enough to say they have failed because of the reaction. It is quite clear that there is more than a tiny minority in republican areas who support these dissidents which makes them legitimate targets if and when loyalists strike back. Bollocks, the ira never knew the word democracy so dont try and legitimize there cowardly butchering of innocent people by claiming they had no choice. They certainly had a choice but they with the ourselves alone attitude never listened to any government, all the other parties, church leaders politicians from bothsides of the atlantic etc, they just continued as the dissidents are presently doing. It happened because they had alot of support from those who hate anything Protestant or British. Decades of evidence backs these facts showing their sectarian hatred over and over again. The community that supported them are as guilty as those who pulled the trigger or planted the bombs. There always was a peacefull alternative as supported by the nationalist sdlp which was the main nationalist party but republicans wouldnt listen. The only reson republcians now claim to be democratic is because they see in their warped opinion that a UI is closer because of the population and geographics, so for their final push they give up the violence in the hope to win over the PUL community trying to convince us there campaign was legitimate and all they ever wanted was peace. Absolute bullshit. When a Diana mug is still offending them it shows just how much they are concerned for the PUL community and how much they really want to reach out. I hope you are right but I think you could be very very wrong in your assertion.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2009 17:53:14 GMT
I was simply correcting your errors of opinion. Well you could start with the many celtic supporters, messages on various celtic forums, republican forums, bebo etc which alone shows considerable support. Then go into republican areas in particular the Strabane and Omagh areas as well as parts of Belfast and other areas and you will see they certainly have support. Then there was the recent meeting where one speaker said so this is micro support and the large crowd cheered. As a republican you should know the ballot box means little to republicans in particular the closet ones. When sf/ira were the smallest party it is evident that although some voted for the democratic sdlp, some of there voters supported the ira. So I believe there will be those who vote for sf yet support dissident actions if you understand what I mean. I think my answers above should explain that, and I did not say you were very very wrong in your assertion, I put the words 'but I think you could be very very wrong.....' |
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2009 18:45:42 GMT
I was disgusted and angry at the attacks, I dont know one person that wasnt. Wish the dissidents would die in a fire.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2009 18:59:05 GMT
I was disgusted and angry at the attacks, I dont know one person that wasnt. Wish the dissidents would die in a fire. Jim your open condemnation is most welcome and believe it or not I believe your feelings on this. Unfortunately the only point we disagree on here is not knowing anyone that wasnt disgusted at these attacks. Good to debate with you again btw. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2009 19:12:42 GMT
I was disgusted and angry at the attacks, I dont know one person that wasnt. Wish the dissidents would die in a fire. Jim your open condemnation is most welcome and believe it or not I believe your feelings on this. Unfortunately the only point we disagree on here is not knowing anyone that wasnt disgusted at these attacks. Good to debate with you again btw. did ya miss me?! I remember watching some smicker root on sky news saying he agreed with it, it was laughed at back home my mates told me. Dont know anyone personally that agreed with the attacks or were remotely happy about them, asked mates and family when i was over for a week and not a soul. |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2009 19:41:55 GMT
Of course I missed ye. ;D ;D
Jim I am not saying you are lying about no-one supporting it as in not knowing anyone mate. Alot of my volunteer work is in republican areas including Andytown. I have seen it myself and I have heard it myself, even in Ballymena they have much support and the same goes for a certain part of Coleraina and they are both mainly Unionist towns.
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2009 19:54:14 GMT
Of course I missed ye. ;D ;D Jim I am not saying you are lying about no-one supporting it as in not knowing anyone mate. Alot of my volunteer work is in republican areas including Andytown. I have seen it myself and I have heard it myself, even in Ballymena they have much support and the same goes for a certain part of Coleraina and they are both mainly Unionist towns. I grew up in Andytown, its a provo area. You'd probably find a bit of support down towards Divis tower. Either way fuck um, I've no want for it. |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 10, 2009 0:08:03 GMT
Andytown IMO is quite a close knit community. Most shops advertise the buy local, I think its called the west Belfast initiative but I cant remember the exact words of what its called. Theres a great chippy beisde a spar and bakery up there, think its on the glen road if memoery serves me correctly.
How on earth do all the kids on dirt bikes get off with riding up and down the roads in that area with no helmuts and they never seem to get caught by the cops?? ;D
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2009 9:36:16 GMT
The chippy is called the roundabout, not been in there in years. Yeah they do buy local, west belfast is a bit different to the other parts of belfast I think, theres belfast, and theres west belfast. its changed a fair bit in the past four years but ive not seen much of it when im there because im always in the town, rarely ever drink in west belfast when im home which is rare enough as it. when i go back its changed that bit more everytime. still full of dickheads though.
fucking dirt bikes, would love to set them on fire, you dont need an alarm clock with some wee shite speeding up and down outside your door with his smicker mates trying to skid, but at least its not stolen cars eh! police dont seem to give a shit about dirt bikes and quads.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 10, 2009 13:08:22 GMT
Jim in fairness to the police they gave chase one day and the lads took their bikes up side streets. When we were talking to one of them later the younges said you just drive round the back of houses and shout out and there will always be somebody who will come out and open there gate to let them in and hide.
Quite often you would see 3 on the one bike riding up the road with no helmets darting in and out of the traffic.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 10, 2009 19:36:57 GMT
While my reasons are somewhat different or the tone of them would be different, I have to say that I think Wasp is generally correct.
And please edit the question - spelling THREAT - not treat!!
But let me put it in my words;
The Question: Is there a sustained threat from the RIRA/CIRA?
The answer must be yes there is a sustained threat.
But a threat to what and how big a threat, is what we should analyse. And does this threat effect anything.
I think the point that Wasp makes about PIRA (in 1969-1971 period) is valid. In 1969, did PIRA have majority nationalist support, remember they had just split from the bigger OIRA. And the SDLP and PD were active along with others.
The turning points for the PIRA was the reaction of the British/Unionists played into the hands of PIRA. - Burntollet, Falls Curfew, Bloody Sunday in Derry, Internment, Hooded Men, Miami Show Band murder, and other Loyalists attacks on non-combatants, attacks on Civil Rights both physical and political, etc, etc, all helped to build support for an armed campaign.
During the period 1975-1978 the PIRA were under serve pressure to wind up their campaign. The British policies of 'Criminalization', 'Ulsterization' and 'Normalization' were in full force, the Peace People were gaining mass support. It was only the prison protests that allowed the PIRA to snowball support for the prisoners and turn that into support for a political agenda thus weakening the Peace People with the moral conflicting views. Accumalating in the 1981 Hunger Strikes and the lead into Electorial politics.
The difference today is that everybody has learnt lessons from the past. There will be no broad sweep Internment this time (the hope that time was to arrest/intern all the key players).
It does seem that both RIRA and CIRA are riddled with 'intelligence agents', and poor quality personell. But even so they were still able to mount two significant operations, without it would seem prior knowledge being known that would have allowed counter measures to be put in place. Unless the intent of the British 'intelligence' was to let these murders take place. But the choices of the handlers of the 'intelligence agents' gets difficult. Do they act on intelligence thus run the risk of exposing the intelligence source or do they do nothing and keep their source in place. Revelations about 'Stake-knife' and Denis Donaldson have shown that the PIRA was also riddled with high level 'intelligence agents', this is the way of things. Do not think this changes anything.
I very much doubt that there was any intent to create a 'Domino effect', that does not make sense! It maybe just a case of after repeated attempts they just got 'lucky', and they will get 'lucky' again.
Let me just end by saying that I do not support an armed campaign at this period. And I think it is morally wrong to be engaged in one at this period. I do not believe that the British have ever willingly (without the use of force or the threat of force) removed themselves from any international sphere, so why would Ireland be different.
Is there support for a Republican military campaign? I do not believe there is support.
Is Sinn Féin offering an alternative to achieving a United Ireland? I do not believe that they are offering such an alternative. What they are offering is a say in local government by working class representives, on local issues.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 10, 2009 22:45:55 GMT
Interesting post afd, regarding the rest of your post all I will say that while you have pointed out reasons for ira support I could also point out many reasons for Unionist decisions and loyalist actions. However it is the above quote that stood out for me in your post.
I am not singling you out here, I am giving my take on it and my own opinion. First of all no matter what sinn fein say they cannot achieve a UI and what they are offering according to you was not worth decades of violence where people from all sides were slaughtered. Republican violence has the opposite effect on the PUL community than what republicans intended, we did not bow down, we stood frim and our determination was only hardened by republican actions.
A UI cannot be achieved by a substantial majority, it could only happen with the will of the PUL community and we all know that will never happen. So where does that leave us? If for a moment we pretend republican violence did not happen and loyalist reaction did not happen we would all have to work together to find some kind of accomodation and acceptance. We would all have to learn about eachother and understand eachothers aspirations along with accepting we are different. I ully believe this could have been achieved.
Unfortunately the violence hindered this greatly, it only increased suspician and hardened the views of either side. There were also many other factors outside violence that did not help matters but the question is can we overcome the hurt of the past to move to a long term agreement?? As things stand I would say no, the childish attitude of seeking to get offended over flamin mugsetc by sinn fein just proved to my community even further that they do not want a lasting peace, nor do they want to accept my community in any possibility of a UI. Sinn fein damage themselves by such actions.
Things are getting more and more difficult for the 2 largest parties, as a loyalist I see the dupers as traitors and I now despise them nearly as much as sinn fein. How can any party win the likes of me over and win the likes of the dissidents over?
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 11, 2009 8:29:04 GMT
I appreciate your restraint Wasp and the fact that you did refrain from making those points that you see as valid justification for Unionist decisions and loyalist actions. Nor do I pretend that they do not exist or that there is not another version/side of the story. And I feel that your restraint is very mature and welcome, it would set us off on a tangent and perhaps distracted some others to the point that I am trying to make. A point I believe you are also making but from a Unionist perspective.
The point is that PIRA did not suddenly have majority nationalist support, nor did they have a silent sizeable minority in the early years. But it was actions made not by them but responses by the state that allowed them to build support. So for Sinn Féin to dismiss CIRA and RIRA is to dismiss the PIRA in the early period.
What has changed is political climate and the world political make up. The collapse of Russian Communism as a counter balance to US aggression has evaporated. Also the rise of the religious fundamentalist into world politics. But in the same way that the Banks and the Financial markets collapsed so too will the political climate change, maybe not as dramatically but it will change.
The question must now be asked how fragile is Unionism? How 'lucky' do CIRA and RIRA have to be before we get state responses or Loyalist responses that help build support for CIRA and RIRA. We are already seeing some cracks in the wall.
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Post by Wasp on Apr 11, 2009 14:41:07 GMT
This is going to sound competely daft but as much as Unionism is split it is also stronger than ever IMHO.
I think the question froma loyalist point of view is that how long will it be before loyalists take action if the security forces don't? If loyalists were the rira/cira and it was loyalists who started the violence again, it was loyalists who were targeting republicans and killing republicans would the republican/nationalist communtiy not be demanding that the security forces respond with all means possible??
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Post by collina on Apr 11, 2009 15:10:48 GMT
I think the question froma loyalist point of view is that how long will it be before loyalists take action if the security forces don't? As though the remedy for these cowardly killings would be more cowardly killings? When you say "take action", do you mean the "any catholic will do" type of action? It's peculiar WASP, that you parallel the purposes and aims of Loyalist Terrorism with the function of the security forces. As though violent loyalism was the justice system of last resort? Do you see loyalist paramilitaries as some sort of auxiliary to the British Army/Police? Do you not acknowledge that Loyalist terrorism is the twin brother of CIRA/RIRA terrorism and that they are both enemies of the people and the security forces. |
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