Is there a sustained threat from the RIRA/CIRA

[Jim]

Apr 12, 2009 14:50:16 GMT Wasp said:

I've heard plenty of times some republicans were working with some loyalists on selling drugs in areas they couldnt, was years ago when I heard that.

Jim through my volunteer work I really got my eyes opened concerning drug dealing and trafficing in N.Ireland, I meet, talk to and listen to people from bothsides who are either taking or dealing drugs or both, some have stopped and none of them has any political agenda to cast stones at the otherside. Concerning what you said above I know 1 drug dealer who sold for the ira, he moved to a mainly Unionist area and sold for the uvf. He got into a bit of trouble over money with the uvf and he went to the ira, who then went to the uvf and this man was then given some more time to pay back money owed. The whole thing is disgusting and it makes the claim of fighting for Ireland or Ulster an even bigger joke.

When the drugs leave colombia they usually goto Jamaica, then onto Spain then to either London or Amsterdam, they then make there way to Belfast where they are distributed between republican and loyalist paramilitaries and some criminal gangs. It is members of these gangs who got shot by the ira or uvf etc becaused they wouldnt give them their cut.



Jim I know republicans who are well into their drugs in the sameway I know loyalists are well into their drugs. West Belfast is full of drugs, as is other parts of Belfast.



They may claim to be loyalists and they may be loyalists in the sense they want N.I to remain British etc but for me they are scumbags and its the same with republican dealers who arfe republicans yet peddle this filth amongst their communities.



I agree to an extent but you have to remember all the criminality republican and loyalists are involved in to raise money for their cause and drugs played a major part in that, to think different is very naive.



They are actively involved, they make financial gain from it and they make sure they have their areas carved up between them. I know members of these groups do it to line their own pocket and do dealing for their own gain but the groups they represent still get their money from them ontop of their own drug dealing. I think I already told you on this forum before about a man I personally know who was held at gunpoint by the ira because he hadnt given them their cut of his profits. Jim outside of Belfast here is a few durg areas and the main players, Ballymena is split roughly evenly between republicans and loyalists, Coleraine it is republicans yet a mainly Unionist town, same with Ballymoney and Antrim. Ballycastle which is largely nationalist it is loyalists who are the main players. The otherside does deal as well in these places but I am only pointing out the main players.

A lot of peope like to forget that formor "terrorists" from either organisations that have gave up their fight are doing more for their own communities than some government sponsored schemes are or than the police are.

There certainly are people who have turned there backs on violence and are working for the better of their community

I'm well aware of how drugs are brought in to be honest, you mention that the IRA use drug money to fund itself, I don't know if thats completely true, I can't verify if the Provos have gone away; I assume they have, the Governments assume they have and I'd say their intelligence is correct, and a few international bodies are writing reports saying they have, so what is there to fund? If they are funding their own pockets then its not in the name of the IRA, is it?

There are republicans who are dealing drugs, ofcourse there are, I would have to be a fool to believe otherwise, can't say I've ever seen it though, only from people who are from republican families but were not involved, like AFD said, a lot of people claim they are involved, they could have been making tea at army council meetings for all it matters hardly involved if involved at all but may know faces and names to back themselves up falsly.

[Wasp]

I'm well aware of how drugs are brought in to be honest, you mention that the IRA use drug money to fund itself, I don't know if thats completely true, I can't verify if the Provos have gone away; I assume they have, the Governments assume they have and I'd say their intelligence is correct, and a few international bodies are writing reports saying they have, so what is there to fund? If they are funding their own pockets then its not in the name of the IRA, is it?

Their own pockets. Apart from that what was the Northern bank robbery for or do you disagree with all the intelligent reports on bothsides of the border?? If you do you cant use 1 set of reports to back your arguement and then dismiss another.

There are republicans who are dealing drugs, ofcourse there are, I would have to be a fool to believe otherwise, can't say I've ever seen it though, only from people who are from republican families but were not involved, like AFD said, a lot of people claim they are involved, they could have been making tea at army council meetings for all it matters hardly involved if involved at all but may know faces and names to back themselves up falsly.

Jim you are coming across that only loyalists dealt in drugs and not the ira. I am sure you are aware of all the criminal activities the ira were involved in from fuel laundering, smuggling, prostitution etc, but these are not the main money spinners, drugs are. Practically every criminal gang/organisation in the world are involved with drugs because that is where the big money is.

[Wasp]

Good thing you don't write international law! Human rights regardless of who the person is, is a fundamental principal of pretty much every modern first world country, or at least it is supposed to be. You can't pick who gets them and who doesn't, unless you're China.

And when does the law become to politically correct where the rights of the guilty are more important than the rights of the victims. If your family were wiped out in a bomb blast or shooting, how quick wouild you be to defend the rights of those who carried out the attack and those who assisted/supported it?

[Jim]

Apr 13, 2009 19:59:51 GMT Wasp said:

Good thing you don't write international law! Human rights regardless of who the person is, is a fundamental principal of pretty much every modern first world country, or at least it is supposed to be. You can't pick who gets them and who doesn't, unless you're China.

And when does the law become to politically correct where the rights of the guilty are more important than the rights of the victims. If your family were wiped out in a bomb blast or shooting, how quick wouild you be to defend the rights of those who carried out the attack and those who assisted/supported it?

The rights of the victim are no more or less than the rights of the offender, both are equally human, flesh and bone.

Obviously if something like that happened to my family my views would be different, I would be talking through grief and anger, not as a politics student or someone who understands the principals of human rights. Its not about being politically correct, its too serious of an issue to just call it political correctness, its about the right of life and liberty, equality before the law, etc.

You may say "what about the right of life for the victim", its a valid point, but two wrongs do not make a right, the state is in no position to pick and choose who gets rights and who doesnt, and neither are you. Without equality before the law we would be living in a very different world. You as a British citizen most likely take pride in the role Britain has had in establishing these international laws and the philosophy that goes along with it, so why would you argue against them?

[Wasp]

The rights of the victim are no more or less than the rights of the offender, both are equally human, flesh and bone.

Obviously if something like that happened to my family my views would be different, I would be talking through grief and anger, not as a politics student or someone who understands the principals of human rights. Its not about being politically correct, its too serious of an issue to just call it political correctness, its about the right of life and liberty, equality before the law, etc.

You may say "what about the right of life for the victim", its a valid point, but two wrongs do not make a right, the state is in no position to pick and choose who gets rights and who doesnt, and neither are you. Without equality before the law we would be living in a very different world. You as a British citizen most likely take pride in the role Britain has had in establishing these international laws and the philosophy that goes along with it, so why would you argue against them?

Jim I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. In answer to your post I am pro human by that I mean I oppose the death penalty after a court case etc. I obviously support juman rights but there are cases which are totally frustrating.

Take a thug who is never out of trouble, has convictions the length of his arms including robbing a disabled or elderly couple, tying them up amnd assaulting them leaving them scarred for life. Should he have a punishment as close to fitting the crime or should he have the same rights as anyone else who has committed a crime?? What about the rights of people who dont take part in the scenario of crime pays?? Take a man who has worked for 10 years and never been in trouble who finds himself unemplyed and take a thug who has never worked and is never out of trouble and they both apply for government paid courses. The thug will be fast tracked because he has a criminal record yet the law abiding citizen will have to wait. This is partly what I mean by saying political correctness gone mad.

Let's say the Shankhill butchers start up again, the police know they are guilty of whatever crime, both communities know as well, would you be as concerned about their conditions in a police holidng area where they are fed properly and have whatever rights they are entitled to??

[An Fear Dubh]

Setanta - Let us not forget that the in first PIRA Easter parade 7 people marched in Belfast.

And if they are so insignificant why have we suddenly seen a rise in the number of prominant SF members mentioning them in statements and Easter messages? If they are no threat or little threat then they are not worth the mention.

The point is that at the moment they are growing and gaining support from the youth (many who do not have a vote), in the same way that the PIRA grew.

When PIRA started out they did not have an articulate political agenda, but SF have moved to adopt the position held by the SDLP and others in the early years.

Whether they have killed Donaldson or not is irrelevant. The PIRA can not come out and say 'no they didn't it was us', but the RIRA has planted that seed of doubt. And that was the purpose of that statement, to undermine. If they can follow on from there and kill other 'traitors' then that seed might grow.

[Wasp]

AFD we probably couldnt agree on even the weather but I must say your post is IMO a very reasonable and honest post which is straight to the point.

On your point to do with the youth there is 1 young man I would like to use as an example. Although I din't know him very well he was in my house severla times and I am friendly with his father. Anyway I could only describe this young lad when I knew him as a nice wee lad with very good manners and it was obvious his upbringing was a good one. However he moved down south and got involved with the junior wing of sinn fein which horrified his father, he went along to at least 1 protest outside an Orange hall in the republic holidng a placard.

Now on bebo and I have seen it for myself he openly shows his support for the rira and their actions. Where did he learn his trait from? Where did he get his political thinking from? Where did he get the change in watching a parade with mates to holidng placards outside an Orange hall??

His father is absolutely sure that he learned all he now knows from getting involved with sinn fein which led to a deepening of his hatred of the PUL community, so would this then suggest that sinn fein themselves are helping to breed the very dissidents that they are now complaining about?

[An Fear Dubh]

I am not sure there is written records of who marches in Easter parades, but if you can 'look it up' please feel free. I have no reason to lie as far as I am concerned it is history. But I can name a few that did march in Belfast and I am related to one of them and I am positive that there were only 7 in the first PIRA parade in Belfast. I was a bit young at the time, but come from a long standing republican family that did split between PIRA v's OIRA. But I was of an age that I understood the turmoil and inter-family conflict, while only later in life understanding the political implications. Not sure of the year, 1969/1970, I assume.

What is the purpose of meeting with the 32CSM? Is it to explain the errors of their ways and 'educate' them? Is it to look for ways to encompass them into a common strategy? Do you think that OIRA did not try to 'educate' PIRA in the early days? Why did it take 30 years for PIRA to come to the position that OIRA had in 1969? (Remember I made that choice too, but I know why I did, many SF members would be hard pressed to point out the difference). There will be no search for common ground between SF and 32CSM (or anybody else). SF do not have a good track record with regards to working together with anybody, that might hold a different political view other than that of the central party line of SF.

As regards to SF turning their backs on issues, don't get me started!! There is a difference between rhetoric and playing the media and actually doing things that force change, so I think we should skim over that one.

And I agree that support for 'dissidents' will not grow significantly, unless there is some advantage handed to them. But I have also pointed out that both the DUP and SF maybe pushed into a position that they must support a move that might escalate into creating an advantage. And that in the large housing estates, where jobs are few, the housing list is large, amenities are non existent, drugs are on the increase as well as criminal activity, there is a breeding ground for political radicalization.

But the 'huge concern' for SF is this breeding ground, not the differing political ideologies. SF are now 'mainstream' and as Wasp and myself have pointed out all youths feel alienated from mainstream society. In the past some youth we able to identify with radical elements in republican circles, now SF are no longer identified as radical, but as part of the nonworking establishment.

The fact that Nationalists are in the Assembly, will not change how things develop. When 'Special Powers' and 'Anti-Terrorism Acts' (or whatever they get called) get announced they are only 'short-term' measures but they become 'long-term'. Martin McGuiness is joint First Minister, do we have 'political status' for political prisoners, or is it no longer a political issue?? If Gerry Kelly becomes Minister of Justice will it stop the police using 'anti-terrorist arrest laws', or will he issue statements in support of the police?

If as you suggested Setanta the RIRA/CIRA have misjudged the time and the people. Then they will fizzle out. But look at the past, the 1960's were a boom time, then the 1970's were a recession period. We are moving into a recession period. To move the people away from the RIRA/CIRA the government (SF) must create jobs, etc. Very difficult to do in a recession period.

America is deeply embroiled in her own economic issues, and globally in Iraq and Afghanistan. So expect little help from there. England is about to get a Conservative government at the next election. And the UUP have tied themselves in there. Also Cameron's position on Ireland looks like he will tie the north stronger to the union with Britain.

All of these factors make the future outlook very depressing.

The very fact Setanta that you acknowledged that piece of media manipulation about Donaldson, proves that the seed was planted. As it turns out in the actual Easter message read out - the bit about claiming Donaldson's execution was not read out. So what we have is someone before hand 'tipping off' a journalist about what was going to be in the statement. And that this 'tip off' got reported but the actual message did not contain this information. Now the story being pushed is that the person reading the statement 'missed a line' by mistake!! The purpose of that slight of hand trick is still to undermine but now they can deny it both ways - 'we missed out a bit' or 'it was not in Our statement, the journalist made it up', but the seed is well planted.

[Jim]

Apr 14, 2009 21:31:34 GMT Wasp said:

Jim I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. In answer to your post I am pro human by that I mean I oppose the death penalty after a court case etc. I obviously support juman rights but there are cases which are totally frustrating.

Take a thug who is never out of trouble, has convictions the length of his arms including robbing a disabled or elderly couple, tying them up amnd assaulting them leaving them scarred for life. Should he have a punishment as close to fitting the crime or should he have the same rights as anyone else who has committed a crime?? What about the rights of people who dont take part in the scenario of crime pays?? Take a man who has worked for 10 years and never been in trouble who finds himself unemplyed and take a thug who has never worked and is never out of trouble and they both apply for government paid courses. The thug will be fast tracked because he has a criminal record yet the law abiding citizen will have to wait. This is partly what I mean by saying political correctness gone mad.

Let's say the Shankhill butchers start up again, the police know they are guilty of whatever crime, both communities know as well, would you be as concerned about their conditions in a police holidng area where they are fed properly and have whatever rights they are entitled to??

I hear you on the frustration part, but its no excuse to throw them out the window either. Everyone, no matter what they do, no matter how horrid the crime is, deserves even the most basic rights, it doesn't mean its a get out of jail card, it just means equality before the law.

You're confusing punishment with rights. Punishments vary on crime, situation, country, types of law enforcement, how full the prisons are, how effective the prisons are. Lets take for example (you'll love this) a member of a paramilitary organisation in Northern Ireland. You accuse them of drug pushing and murder, lets say a member did both, he murdered and he pushed and dealt drugs to teenagers, and killed those who got in his way. In Northern Ireland he would have been looking at a life sentence, in England he would have been free in 10 years. Different situations call for different punishments as far as the law sees fit. The situation however should have been that they should have had the same basic human rights before the law, that the law would treat them equal to anyone else, as in facts not being distorted, police evidence not being distorted. A rapist and a murderer should have the same equal rights before the law as a thief and a drug dealer.

Your second example, a thug in and out of jail all his life, and a man who has never set a foot wrong, both going for a course. Why should the thug be entitled to the Government paying for it?
Because, if the person in and out of jail all his life is thinking of doing an educational course he's more likely to take something out of it for the better and less likely to reoffend, opening doors to him to lead a "better" life, whereas the honest hard working fella doesn't need that, and chances are he has some sort of savings to pay for it. Who is in more NEED of the free course?

My university course teaches me about the criminal justice system in England and Wales, about 2 months ago I had to learn about and write a paper about the prison and probation systems, and if prison actually works. You'd be susprised at how many people incarcerated are re-offenders. Why is that? Something isnt working, yet the studies I looked at showed prison systems that nipped problems early through education and reformation led to people being less likely to re-offend, especially in teenagers.

The Shankill Butchers were a bit different from your average killers. They were psycotic and partly motivated by politics, partly motivated by hate, and partly motivated by other people being afraid to stop them. I wonder if Lenny Murphy would have been a mass murderer if he grew up in England; who knows.

[An Fear Dubh]

Interesting points Jim:
What sprang to mind was the fact that I read today that the prison population in the north is near back to the levels of prior GFA agreement. And that many are in two to a cell designed for one. Under such pressure the prison system reaches breaking point. On top of this the prison officers have withdrawn 'goodwill' as part of industrial action. Which will mean that education and reform programmes will suffer. Another potential breeding ground. And we seem good at creating prison struggles that help build support outside.

[Jim]

I take it you mean its full of "ODCs"?

In England at least, the prisons are about to bust, new ones are opening or have opened and they're full before they've been built. I'm reading a book by a professor of criminology from cambridge at the minute, talking about whats wrong with the prison system; a lot of offenders go in clean or drugs and come out addicted to them, which leads them to reoffend for drug money. A lot of prisoners can't cope with the outside world after long term incarceration. Small things on the outside world that arent a threat, like eye contact mean something completely different inside and they don't know how to deal with it.

I can't see things like that being a problem in NI pre GFA because paramilitary members would have been housed in the same blocks and isolated from the rest but for criminals it seems to be a completely different situation, it makes you ask if prison is working, if its even an answer to the problem of crime.

Although I do know IRA volunteers who done time in jail that took years to get over it when released. Stupid things like tripping over curb stones, colours, traffic noise, when just released were a shock to the system because of the sensory deprivation inside where everything is the same colour and theres no traffic to be heard. Don't suppose you know anything about that?

[Wasp]

Jim I didnt say why should the governement pay for these courses, I said these thugs are fast tracked. More money is spent on helping drug addicts and I cant remeber the exact figure but for every £5 spent on drug issues £1.50 is saved, yet £3 is saved with alcohol issues. I will try and get the exact figures for you. Alcohol is the biggest contributor to crime, assaults, domestic violence etc and counts for over 4 times the rate for drug related offences for certain things.

I am all for helping people to stop reoffending and to get them the help they need, this is part of my volunteer work. I think I already told you that I turned down the biggest contract I could ever have so that people whom I care for could do the work along with me(which I done for free). Even though I support such things and concerning the courts I support basic rights for the most horrific crimes etc it really gets on my nerves when some people seem to be more concerned with the room a known thug is being held in and the condition it is in etc. If we were in certain Middle Eastern countries we would have everyright to be concerned but we all know that Britain has become a soft touch concerning prisoners or those wanted for questioning.

[An Fear Dubh]

There are 27 Republicans and 35 Loyalists housed seperately and the rest I assume are ODC's

Having done a couple of turns inside, I can relate to the shock that release brings. While I do know comrades that were unable to cope with release, my own resettlement took about a couple of months. I was not able to cross a road except at 'traffic light crossings', could not judge speed or distance. Also when you go into a shop no one tells you how much things cost. There is a basic understanding of value. So when I went in, the shop assistant just gave me this vacant look waiting for me to hand over the near to correct amount without telling me what that amount was. As a result I just handed over a large bill and accepted the change in coins. Which meant by the end of the day I had a large pocket full of coins!!

[An Fear Dubh]

Oh yes that 27-35 is Maghaberry.
In March 2009;
Maghaberry = 1,616, and under half are on remand awaiting trial.
Magilligan = 518 (but this was supposed to close) and was designed for 450.
Hydebank (male young offenders and adult female) = over 170 both sentenced and remand.

[Jim]

Apr 15, 2009 21:38:39 GMT Wasp said:

Jim I didnt say why should the governement pay for these courses, I said these thugs are fast tracked. More money is spent on helping drug addicts and I cant remeber the exact figure but for every £5 spent on drug issues £1.50 is saved, yet £3 is saved with alcohol issues. I will try and get the exact figures for you. Alcohol is the biggest contributor to crime, assaults, domestic violence etc and counts for over 4 times the rate for drug related offences for certain things.

I am all for helping people to stop reoffending and to get them the help they need, this is part of my volunteer work. I think I already told you that I turned down the biggest contract I could ever have so that people whom I care for could do the work along with me(which I done for free). Even though I support such things and concerning the courts I support basic rights for the most horrific crimes etc it really gets on my nerves when some people seem to be more concerned with the room a known thug is being held in and the condition it is in etc. If we were in certain Middle Eastern countries we would have everyright to be concerned but we all know that Britain has become a soft touch concerning prisoners or those wanted for questioning.

Alcohol is a bit different because its legal and you can buy it almost anywhere, more people drink than they take drugs, but the difference with drug and alcohol abuse isnt te legality of it, its the crime that comes with it since drugs cost a lot more than alcohol, meaning more money needed. I dont see why the thug shouldnt be fast tracked if it helps him along the way sort his head out, why else would he be doing a course?

AFD; exactly what I was getting at. Cant imagine how hard it would be, its got to be even worse for prisoners that arent in for political reasons but just for crime where the culture is big time different, not housed with like minded people but with nutcases!

And they wonder why prison isnt working!