The rise of Racism on this island

[Wasp]

Ok Earl once again I will back down.

Back to immigration

[earl]

Cheers WASP. Let all of us try and keep the bad habits of the past out. This is a second chance, not round 2.

[An Fear Dubh]

While I accept that my last post was antagonistic to those of the Unionist community, I was trying to show how one view expressed of those who do not 'fully integrate' could be transposed to other countries and show something that those who support it there do not here. I could have also used the Native American Indians and how the European settlers did not fully integrate. Or the Aboriginal people of Australia or the Afrikaner's of South Africa. While there is no moving from the fact that today there are people born in Northern Ireland, USA, Australia and South Africa who are of that region and their culture is as legitimate as those of the native peoples.

This for me highlights the weakness of the argument that to not 'fully integrate' makes you or your descendant a 'legitimate' target for deportation or whatever the agreed response is.

Racism is in my opinion another tool that is used to divide 'working-class' (or lower class). When jobs are disappearing, housing is limited, and other social economic factors are in short supply. There is a return to 'tribal' survival and we want what is best for our group. We might know that this is unfair but fairness does not put bread and butter on the table, when the choices become stark.

I know Earl started this thread on the rise of Racism on this Island. But the major influence on us is the politics of England. We are lucky in respect that we were never a colonial power, and those from various corners of the colonial 'empire' who were granted fully British rights were never inclined to move here. England found themselves trapped by their own colonial 'success'. And people flocked from many poor areas to seek a better life in England. The first thing this influx of people did (not by their intention) was to drive down the wage demands. As they were cheap labor and could under cut the call for pay increases. This immediately sets them apart and resentment grows. 'No Irish, No Blacks'. To those who think that being white Irish in England makes you the same, you have failed to look at the past or have dismissed it as the past never to be repeated. Given the right circumstances you will find, you can be outcast very easily, look at the 'Birmingham 6, the Guildford 4. So for us to learn lessons and try to avoid the same traps we need to study the rise of racism in England.

For myself I do not understand the points Wasp makes. If these people living in Britain hold a British passport or are here legitimately then they are entitled to the same benefits as everyone else. There is no evidence that supports the claim that 'immigrants' are only here to live off the English benefit system there is evidence that shows (and I previously posted it in this forum) they tax contribution is greater than most other sections. If Wasp has evidence that shows that 'immigrants' are only here to live off the English benefit system then I would like to see it. Wasp, you have admitted that you have mixed into your equation East Europeans who are not 'illegal' immigrants. And Jim is talking of British citizens of Asian descent, again other group who are not 'illegal. If we want to look at racism and how it grows, the greatest weapon is mis-information, not based in fact.

Harry on the other hand expresses fear and caution. These are emotional responses that while legitimate and we can see how they might exist, are not to be founded. And I agree these undertones of mistrust can develop into racism. The fact that Harry has voiced these emotions and his uneasiness with them shows there is work to be done. Now Jim's point about integrating into the local community is valid. But to expect 'full integration' of the whole community is not realistic and we should not set unrealistic goals. But both communities need to interact if not integrate. Because it is through education and knowing the correct information that we can see that our mistrust was unplaced.

Surely those in the north should know this better, as two communities divided, we know what is needed to develop into one and that is to begin to breakdown the barriers that create mistrust. I am not an opponent for forced integration, I think it is a recipe for failure and they set unrealistic goals. The integration needs to be small interaction that will build and grow into something long lasting.

[Jim]

Hehe well European settlers in America and down under didn't integrate and look what happened! I don't think i've ever said anything about full integration, people arent going to wake up one morning and feel British or English or whatever when they move to Birmingham, what they should be doing is learning the language or already speak it, and it would surprise you how many dont. A lot shutting themselves off from the outside world unless their neighbours are the same skin colour, yet it is apparently only white people that can be racist.

I have not dismissed the past, I havent felt the need to look at it, we're talking about immigration within say the past 10 years where it has risen so fast the country doesn't know how to handle it, being white Irish has little difference to being white English or white Scottish these days.

If we want to look at racism and how it grows take a wee trip over to Manchester! Down the road a bit is a big asian community, they talk to no one but themselves, why is that? Do they feel alienated by English culture? No doubt, yet they do nothing to make it any less alien, instead they close their eyes and hope it goes away.

Full integration was never the agenda of my post, nor is it the agenda of any government or agency or political party I can think of, its impossible to have full integration, it is NOT impossible to have a working relationship of cultures, but it doesn't happen.

I still don't see the point in bringing up the two communities in the north; we're too alike when it doesn't come to Politics. Living in England and meeting other people from NI you see how little difference there is once you're outside the bubble, most of my mates here are protestant loyalists, little difference between us or anyone else from NI when it doesn't come to politics, hardly comparable to cultures from all corners of the globe on one small island, from as far away as Hong Kong to as close as Scotland.

Also, why has the black community here integrated much better? Because they've been here for about 5 decades or longer now, after the race riots things changed pretty rapidly, they mixed with the white population who quickly changed their views on the black population and opened their own minds a bit, not hide away in areas where any "outsider" is frowned apon in their own country.

[Wasp]

For myself I do not understand the points Wasp makes. If these people living in Britain hold a British passport or are here legitimately then they are entitled to the same benefits as everyone else.

They certainly are and I never said different. My whole point was on the mass immigration especially at a time for many working class families regardless of their skin colour where they are going thorugh great hardship.

There is no evidence that supports the claim that 'immigrants' are only here to live off the English benefit system there is evidence that shows (and I previously posted it in this forum) they tax contribution is greater than most other sections.

Not one person on this thread has said immigrants only come to live off the benefit system, but there are plenty who do and its not just the benefit sytem it is the pressure that is placed on housing, education and health.

If Wasp has evidence that shows that 'immigrants' are only here to live off the English benefit system then I would like to see it.

I never ever said that, not once did I say that. Re-read my posts. A while back I was lambasted by some on here for stating the group of people that robbed me while in London and I took dogs abuse for it. I was told I had no proof, and if memory serves me I was accused of being racist and throwing wild unfounded allegations just becasue some copper told me so. Several months later the same criminal gangs that I stated were carrying out these robberies were busted and as I had stated they were using children to carry out these crimes making their criminal leaders a fortune while they were claiming all the benefits they could. If its something that can oppose authority it seems quite often republicans jump at the chance to condemn those who say anything that supports authrotiy or states what the police etc have said concerning various incidents.

Wasp, you have admitted that you have mixed into your equation East Europeans who are not 'illegal' immigrants. And Jim is talking of British citizens of Asian descent, again other group who are not 'illegal. If we want to look at racism and how it grows, the greatest weapon is mis-information, not based in fact.

No the greatest way to feed racism is to allow every tom dick and harry into a country which is already under severe financial strain for those already there, severe housing strain, education and health. Add that to growing unemployment mixed with the coctkail of those living here who hate everything British, support terror groups attacking the country they have come to are the prime ingredients of racist growth. The law needs to be changed concerning EU countries and how many are allowed to enter another EU country.

[Wasp]

Jim that was a good post and I know you are speaking from experience. Although there are those amongst the Asian community who do mix properly there are too many who will only shop in Asian owned businesses, live amongst Asian communities and keep themselves seperate from everyone else. Are they racists for not shopping in any shop?? I certainly would say they are, but if a white man, British born and bred refused to shop in an Asian shop he would be branded a racist immediately and he would be condemned by nearly everyone.

[An Fear Dubh]

Jim I travel quite a lot to do with work and I am in London frequently and sometime Birmingham, I know of the Asian communities there and have been in them and felt very much the outsider. Just because you talk of the last 10 years does not mean that the past has no relevance to today. If the 'dissident' republicans started a bombing campaign in England how long would it be before you would find yourself isolated as being Irish. To think differently is very naive the same naivety that the Maguires had right up until they were sentenced to long years in jail.

The 'immigration' issue has been around for a lot longer than 10 years. But what has brought things to a climax point is the change in the world political climate. Things can not be neatly cut out and viewed in isolation, to do that is to look at only the tip of an iceberg and say there is nothing below the water surface. Now I do not know the Manchester area you refer to, but I would hazard a guess it differs little from the communities I have visited in London and Birmingham. But it is you will find only in England or elsewhere abroad that we understand how much alike the two communities are. But when here we can not see any similarity. The point is we should know how to break down barriers and what will work and what will not.

My experience in a Wembley night club was that Blacks got on well with Irish, Scottish, Welsh but not so well with English. But that was a view of one group of Black people I got into company with. Maybe it was the riots, or more likely what was done after the riots to address issues. Things like the Notting Hill Carnival changed the image. Also a lot of the Jamaican population were Christian or Rasta. So Christian values were acceptable to them. Religion plays a big part in integration. As it sets values and identifies sin. Look at our experience here to see that - a sin for mixed marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church (not sure of the exact terms but along those lines), a sin for an Orangeman to marry a Catholic, etc (again not sure the exact terms, but you should get my drift). For a Muslim there are many issues, and sometimes an easier way to isolate their children from all the media and sin, is to bring them up in another language to that of the sin.

While this is not the method I would approve, we must understand this to look for ways to break down the barriers. A constant call from the Muslim community is for a tighter control on 'decadence' in English society. While we must protect free speech and civil rights there are aspects of modern society that could be changed for the better. So it is not just a case of the Asian community moving one way other communities must also move.

Wasp - If you are not talking of legitimate 'immigrants', there was no 'mass immigration' the British Foreign Office have estimated figures available for you to look at. There is no evidence that points to 'immigrants' living off the benefit system to a greater extent. There is no evidence that they are placing the housing system under pressure. There is no evidence that they are placing the Health system under pressure. There is no evidence that they are placing the Education system under pressure. If you have evidence I would like to see the source.

There are probably more Asians in Britain than the whole population of the North. But we seem to have no problem telling people to shop local and buy Northern Irish products to support local business. And I see nothing wrong with this idea. Are we being racist by doing this? I do not think so. Why then is it wrong for people from the Asian community in Britain to shop and buy from local Asians? I am not approving everything they do and do recognize their isolationist mentalist. But again we need to look at their culture and see that this maybe a cultural difficulty that has yet to be bridged. Maybe they need something like the riots Jim talked of the clear the way for a new approach, but maybe such riots are not in their culture/class/religion or a make up of parts of all three. But let us be very careful before we fall into the racist trap.

[Wasp]

Jim I travel quite a lot to do with work and I am in London frequently and sometime Birmingham, I know of the Asian communities there and have been in them and felt very much the outsider. Just because you talk of the last 10 years does not mean that the past has no relevance to today. If the 'dissident' republicans started a bombing campaign in England how long would it be before you would find yourself isolated as being Irish. To think differently is very naive the same naivety that the Maguires had right up until they were sentenced to long years in jail.

I have Irish relations who have lived in England for years and they never felt isolated for being Irish despite the ira's campaign on the mainland. So to suggest being Irish would mean you would be isolated is completely false, obviously there would be those who would feel isolated but being Irish does not equate being isolated because of an irish terror campaign.

Wasp - If you are not talking of legitimate 'immigrants', there was no 'mass immigration' the British Foreign Office have estimated figures available for you to look at.

THE word you have used was estimate. In 2005 the estimate was that there was around 570,000 living illegally in Britain but this figure des not include asylum seekers whose claims are being processed, or who are appealing against a refusal. In 2006 the estimate that an immigrant arrived every minute to Britain which is around 1,500 per day and that was before Romania or Bulgaria joined the EU. If that is not mass immigration then please tell me what is mass immigration.

There is no evidence that points to 'immigrants' living off the benefit system to a greater extent.There is no evidence that they are placing the housing system under pressure.

Oh but there is, have you not seen the news at all where people cannot get a house yet immigrants who have just come here can?? In 2008 there was a report which stated 1 billion pound is being spent on putting up foreigners in council houses - despite two million people waiting for a home. The report also states that Since Labour came to power in 1997 the number of people on the waiting list for a council house has soared by 650,000 to 1.67million households. Net migration rocketed by 42 per cent in just a year, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics in 2007.

There is no evidence that they are placing the Health system under pressure. There is no evidence that they are placing the Education system under pressure. If you have evidence I would like to see the source.

See answer above and then try and live in some parts of England, get a council house and find a class for your children where the class size has not increased dramatically in recent years.

There are probably more Asians in Britain than the whole population of the North. But we seem to have no problem telling people to shop local and buy Northern Irish products to support local business. And I see nothing wrong with this idea. Are we being racist by doing this? I do not think so. Why then is it wrong for people from the Asian community in Britain to shop and buy from local Asians?

You are twisting facts, while we tell people to buy local or rather encourage people to buy local, people still buy from wherever, the difference with many among the Asian community won't, they will just buy off there ownkind. There lies the major difference. Refusing to buy from a shop because the owners are British or Asian, white or coloured etc is equally racist. Products made in N.Ireland are not sold by just white Ulstermen and products made outside N.Ireland are not just sold by foreignors, but the vast majority of British people will shop anywhere but not with the Asian community where many will only shop in Asian owned businesses. Big big difference.

[An Fear Dubh]

I am sure the Maguire family did not feel isolated when the bombs went off in Guildford. They were not involved and felt confident that their lives would continue unchanged. But once arrested why did the police think they could railroad this family into long prison sentences? It is my belief that English public opinion wanted people arrested and convicted. And the suspicion fell heavily on anyone Irish or of Irish origins. The Maguire family fitted the role and were easily railroaded, and English public opinion was satisfied and the pressure was off the police. But how if there was no difference between Irish and English did the suspicion only fall on the Irish?

[Wasp]

afd that last post is a tad silly and I am surprized you even posted it. By saying irish you are including every irish citizen in England and to back your arguement you used the magurie family. Dont forgret many irish spoke out against irish terrorists. You are trying to throw all irish people into the one slot to play the mope card.

Also not once did I say it didnt happen, I acknowledged I am sure it did but that doesnt mean it happened to all things irish. Dont blame the security forces for singling out anyone or the British public for being suspicious, blame the terrorists who carried out the attacks and look more at how the ira let people rot in jail who were apparently innocent of ira crimes.

[Jim]

I talk of the last 10 years because since the Labour government there has been a huge influx of foreigners, probably more than in the 1950s. I've not doubted its not a 10 year long problem; its a 50 year long problem.

If Republicans started a bombing campaign here I can't imagine any more backlash in Manchester than any backlash felt after 1996, who knows, not for me to say, could always say I'm a prod!

Breaking down barriers requires work from both sides of any community, a lot from the white native community here bend over backwards and are walking on eggshells for fear of insulting someone, but the same is not shown back, and thats where anger begins to grow amongst people.

My experience with blacks is that they've had no problem with me and little problem with their weight neighbours, my experience with the asian community is that they have little time or patience for anyone not asian. To be honest, for a muslim that wants to isolate their children from media and "sin" and to bring them up in another language and culture, they shouldn't be in this country. I have family members who are muslim, so I've a fair bit of experience with the religion, they are white and irish, a lot of the problems isnt down to religion but to culture.

What of the civil rights and free speech of the white population who are branded racist for little things? It doesn't really exist, does it. And people wonder why they get angry and call for immigration to stop.

I'm not one to stop up for de Brits but the Maguire family were one out of hundreds of thousands of Irish who have settled in England over the past 100 years.

[Wasp]

If Republicans started a bombing campaign here I can't imagine any more backlash in Manchester than any backlash felt after 1996, who knows, not for me to say, could always say I'm a prod!

I will verify that you are a Prod. ;D ;D

Breaking down barriers requires work from both sides of any community, a lot from the white native community here bend over backwards and are walking on eggshells for fear of insulting someone, but the same is not shown back, and thats where anger begins to grow amongst people.

Excellent points Jim. Another thing I would like to add is that we have been near enough programmed that white equates racist, yet we have various black gorups, Asian groups etc but as soon as a white group appears it is automatically deemed racist. I myself would think the same of any white group.

My experience with blacks is that they've had no problem with me and little problem with their weight neighbours, my experience with the asian community is that they have little time or patience for anyone not asian.

Leaving aside my friends and relations in England I am often in London and the bars I drink in blacks and whites are in eachothers company.

To be honest, for a muslim that wants to isolate their children from media and "sin" and to bring them up in another language and culture, they shouldn't be in this country.

I wish there were clapping smileys because your post deserves it.

I have family members who are muslim, so I've a fair bit of experience with the religion, they are white and irish, a lot of the problems isnt down to religion but to culture.

Sadly many muslims have been demonized by some because of the actions of other muslims.

What of the civil rights and free speech of the white population who are branded racist for little things? It doesn't really exist, does it. And people wonder why they get angry and call for immigration to stop.

A big round of applause Jim. ;D

I'm not one to stop up for de Brits but the Maguire family were one out of hundreds of thousands of Irish who have settled in England over the past 100 years.

And another. Jim have you been up to Ricky Hatton territory yet in Hyde?? I was in his local when I was over for my uncles funeral which was near his home. At the funeral there was 1 of my cousins mates who was Asian. Apart from me thinking he was the grave digger because of the way he was dressed ;D ;D he certainly did not fit the mould that many Asians follow. Most of his friends were white, he drunk in bars at the top end of Hyde rather than the bottom end where an Englishman has become alien to the lace where he was brought up.

Jim what you have said is being echoed throughout England, from my relations and friends to their friends to others etc, I have seen what they are talking about it but you are living there and you are experiencing it first hand.

[Jim]

Cheers.

I've not been to Hyde I've o real reason to go there but I've seen Ricky Hatton in a City pub before the last derby where we got him to sing a wee song www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMPx3-K_x9A -

the thing with the black population in manchester, most of them lived in moss side around were maine road was so they mixed and got in with the white crowd easily with football, its a bit different up north than it is down south, helped them integrate a bit with english life and their kids grew up in england, born here. Asians haven't really bothered. I know a fair few Asians, nice fellas, very friendly, but I only know them through my classes and we don't talk much outside of that unless I was to bump into one of them in the street, Ilived with an Asian girl I still talk to now and again, but she were told me about 2 years ago that making friends who are black or white is frowned upon by a lot of their older generations who arent from England and until that generation dies off it wont happen.

Theres nothing wrong with hanging around with your own, I do it, a lot of my mates here are Irish, a lot of them protestant (and rangers fans which is the worst thing!) but I've bothered to make friends with a lot of English people, its a bit hard not to unless you want nothing to do with them. If I was English I would be very annoyed at it, but thank god I'm not!

[An Fear Dubh]

Wasp are you delighted to hear that those now illegal immigrants the 'Gurkhas' will be kicked out of England if they have not served 20 years in the British Army? They seem to fit all your criteria, bleeding the system, a burden on the housing system, and the health service as many are old and highly decorated solidiers in need of good health care.

I think it is wrong, I think they have earned the right to stay.

[Wasp]

Wasp are you delighted to hear that those now illegal immigrants the 'Gurkhas' will be kicked out of England if they have not served 20 years in the British Army?

Another groundless accusation, you seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and have us both go off on a tangent, unfortunately for you I am not willing to do that. Jim and I have answered your posts in detail and all you can reply with is the maguire family, all the Irish living in England and now the Gurkhas. You must be desperate when you have to try and scrape some kind of point from groundless accusations.

Now in reply to your accusation, I am absolutely disgusted at the treatment the Gurkhas have received.

They seem to fit all your criteria, bleeding the system, a burden on the housing system, and the health service as many are old and highly decorated solidiers in need of good health care.

Man you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel, obviously concerning immigrants you have ignored certain parts of my posts where I clearly stated my views on those who come here who work and contribuate to Britian etc. Where on earth do you get this point on the Ghurkas or for that matter anyone who has come here and adapted to this country, served this country, worked dam hard in this country etc etc. Another thing how on earth would the amount of Ghurkas involved be a burden to this country considering we have been talking about hundreds and thousands if not millions of immigrants??

Please stop with the trying to scrape the barrel to try and get what dirt you can to stick because you have been proved wrong, not just by me (loyalist) but also by Jim and you dont like it. You state that you only want debate and talk of group discussions etc yet this is your another useless, misguided and groundless post which is completely daft to say the least.

For the record I have upmost repsect for the Gurkhas and I am deeply saddened at their treatment just as the vast majority of my community who fully support the Gurkhas and there plight.

I think it is wrong, I think they have earned the right to stay.

They have earned the right to stay here more than some of the scumbags who are born and bred here and terrorize their community and are a burden to society. What sickens me more is the so called racists in the bnp couldn't tie the Gurkhas shoe laces when it comes to whos done what for this country yet they are opposed to the Gurkhas coming here. Bring all the Gurkhas here, along with their families and give them the treatment they so richly deserve.

AFD I really dont understand why you have to go down the route to try and cause friction and to antagonize with silly, idiotic and outrageous posts trying to compare the uncomparable to point score in your silly games. Once again I am not going down that route, I am staying firmly with giving my side of any debates, my opinions which like everyone else I have every right to do. Being the person I am it isnt easy not to react to you but so far I think I have managed to avoid it by rising above your provocation.

Try reading Jim and my posts, show us where you disagree and why, debate with us, dont scrape the bottom of the barrel to try and point score or used veiled attempts to label me as a racist.