Protestant exodus in Londonderry

[Jim]

Well, considering the UDA had a group specifically to go out and abduct catholics and the IRA did not, its a bit easier.

I don't and have never said the IRA have more legitimacy than the UVF or UDA. I see the UVF and UDA as two organisations that where allowed to exist along with the IRA because of the situation. Normal countries in normal situations dont seem to have the problems we have with paramilitaries, so your wrong in assuming.

I've read some of Martin Dillons books, I think he's a brilliant writer and he undertook mountains of research for his books, it shows everyone in a bad light not just the IRA the Dirty War written in the early 1990s is an amazing piece of work, you might want to read that if you want to know the nature of the IRA and the British army. Again, you are wrong in assuming.

[Harry]

The UVF,UDA etc did what they did and it was returning the serve as far as i'm concerned. Loyalists didn't have a visible enemy like the IRA did and sadly innocent Catholics paid a heavy price for the lack of visibilty of the IRA. The IRA only found shelter within one community in N.Ireland and that community bore the brunt. Whatever i feel about the conflict i doesn't take away the fact that innocent Catholics died and were targetted. I have no problems admitting this and have no problems apologising and showing regret for those who died. It does nothing for me or my cause trying to prove that we were just in the actions we took, circumstances were created and violence was the answer for alot on both sides. Try and convince yourself otherwise if you so wish but the IRA targetted innocent Protestants just like we targetted innocent Catholics. Accept this with no....... but it wasn't our intention garble. Whatever the IRA intentions if was pereceived as a sectarian campaign by Protestants.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

SDLP MLA Pat Ramsey said that the issues raised by a television documentary about Protestant migration form Derry's cityside provided a "sobering reality."
Mr. Ramsey made the comments after the screening of ‘Exodous’ which was made by local film company, Open Reel Productions. The Foyle Assemblyman said issues raised in the programme and the discussions generated by it would challenge the republican view of history. “The exodus of Protestant people was an understandable reaction to their situation. The lesson from this is that violent conflict hurts people badly, and, where there is an alternative to violent conflict, the alternative must be used. That lesson is a challenge to the Sinn Féin view of history, and of the dissident republican view of the present,” he said.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

jim said:

Well, considering the UDA had a group specifically to go out and abduct catholics and the IRA did not, its a bit easier.

I don't and have never said the IRA have more legitimacy than the UVF or UDA. I see the UVF and UDA as two organisations that where allowed to exist along with the IRA because of the situation. Normal countries in normal situations dont seem to have the problems we have with paramilitaries, so your wrong in assuming.

I've read some of Martin Dillons books, I think he's a brilliant writer and he undertook mountains of research for his books, it shows everyone in a bad light not just the IRA the Dirty War written in the early 1990s is an amazing piece of work, you might want to read that if you want to know the nature of the IRA and the British army. Again, you are wrong in assuming.

I don't normaly rate dillions books but this one was written before he was famous and it is one of my favourate books, there is no dressing up the conflict, no romancing it its just grim reading of how republicans and loyalists engaged in sectarain turf war.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

setanta said:

Why is it always a pop at Sinn Féin? We never ever said that it didn't happen. We never ever denied there was displacement of people.
What I do dispute is the assertion that it was simply a campaign to "get the Prods out".
Religion doesn't figure in our thinking.Earl outlined the complexaties earlier in this thrend and I haven't see a comment on them yet.

We don't believe you it is a simple as that, As for as the vast majorty of protestants in northern ireland are concerned the PIRA are nothing more then a sectarian killing machine that had no compuction in murdering protestants. Parhaps you should look up one of your old manifestos sentata, round about the 1980's seems you had a policy not to different from the BNP, resettelment grants for unionists in the event of a united ireland, so we could be shipped of to the main land, how decent of you

[bearhunter]

I think what we have here is a clear example of the fundamental disconnect between the two communities in NI. Neither side can fully empathise with the other and that is precisely the reason why there has been years of mistrust, hatred and violence. What caused this disconnect is irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is the gaping gulf between perceptions on both sides and (as evidenced here) the unwillingness of both sides to let go of their well-nursed grievances against "themmuns". As far as I an see (and to my sadness, might I add) the more immigrants that flood into NI the better, as it may dilute the mistrust sufficiently to allow some movement on both sides. Otherwise, it will remain as is with the Loyalist community all staunch in its support of organisations and an army that are anathema to the other side, while the IRA are still perceived as having at least just cause by the Republican side. And the pity is that that this becomes a vicious circle of self-justification, which leads - as we know - to gradual dehumanisation and casual violence, which in turn leads to an entrenchment of attitudes which leads to......

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

bearhunter said:

I think what we have here is a clear example of the fundamental disconnect between the two communities in NI. Neither side can fully empathise with the other and that is precisely the reason why there has been years of mistrust, hatred and violence. What caused this disconnect is irrelevant. What is not irrelevant is the gaping gulf between perceptions on both sides and (as evidenced here) the unwillingness of both sides to let go of their well-nursed grievances against "themmuns". As far as I an see (and to my sadness, might I add) the more immigrants that flood into NI the better, as it may dilute the mistrust sufficiently to allow some movement on both sides. Otherwise, it will remain as is with the Loyalist community all staunch in its support of organization and an army that are anathema to the other side, while the IRA are still perceived as having at least just cause by the Republican side. And the pity is that that this becomes a vicious circle of self-justification, which leads - as we know - to gradual dehumanisation and casual violence, which in turn leads to an entrenchment of attitudes which leads to......

There in lies the difference i have not made any justifications for any organization army, loyalist, or otherwise.

[bearhunter]

So you would deny that mistrust exists between the two communities? Or would you prefer to think of it as Nationalists just being ungrateful, whiners? From your posts here it is clear that you have little empathy for the Nationalist community in the north. You don't have to justify the army/alphabet soupers, I never said you did. Self-justification refers to each community, not to the respective armed members of those communities.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

I know mistrust exists between communites and it is out of respect for the nationalist community which is precisely why i am not trying to justify actions carried out by loyalist or the securty forces regardless of wether i feel those actions carried out by loyalists or the secuirty forces were justified or not.

[Jim]

halflife said:

jim said:

Well, considering the UDA had a group specifically to go out and abduct catholics and the IRA did not, its a bit easier.

I don't and have never said the IRA have more legitimacy than the UVF or UDA. I see the UVF and UDA as two organisations that where allowed to exist along with the IRA because of the situation. Normal countries in normal situations dont seem to have the problems we have with paramilitaries, so your wrong in assuming.

I've read some of Martin Dillons books, I think he's a brilliant writer and he undertook mountains of research for his books, it shows everyone in a bad light not just the IRA the Dirty War written in the early 1990s is an amazing piece of work, you might want to read that if you want to know the nature of the IRA and the British army. Again, you are wrong in assuming.

I don't normaly rate dillions books but this one was written before he was famous and it is one of my favourate books, there is no dressing up the conflict, no romancing it its just grim reading of how republicans and loyalists engaged in sectarain turf war.

In the Dirty War he states that the British army had units dedicated to bringing about a secterian turf war because it would make their job easier. If youve read his other book you will know hes not IRA sympathiser and constantly uses the term "terrorist" throughout this work, so it brings out interesting questions on how secterian turf wars took place or why they took place.

With a third party knowing what is going on between the IRA and UVF/UDA surely they could and should have been able to stop a lot of movement in Derry? Instead, they used consficated guns and balaklavas and promoted sectrian war. Basicacally, the British state done as much to promote this change in the demographics of derry as the IRA did.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

setanta said:

halflife said:

We don't believe you it is a simple as that,

You don't believe that religion doesn't figure in our thinking?
If we hated Protestants then why would Billy Leonard be in our party as an elected rep? Not to mention the many Protestant members.
Why would we revere Protestant Republicans?


Well maybe when you get to know Sinn Féin members you'll see that we're not sectarian murderers or religous fanatics

halflife said:

[
Parhaps you should look up one of your old manifestos sentata, round about the 1980's seems you had a policy not to different from the BNP, resettelment grants for unionists in the event of a united ireland, so we could be shipped of to the main land, how decent of you

I've never heard that before. I've just searched all the old manifestos and not seen it either.
Where did you read that?

head of the UDA in larne is catholic does that mean the UDA is a non sectarain orginization? Although its gratefying that you have confirmed that the Sinn Fein are the PIRA since my words were "as for as protestants are concerned the PIRA are nothing more then a sectarian killing machine" and your responce was about sinn fein. The manifesto is from around 1981 the idea about grants was quickly dropped when it became apparent just how it would be interprated and sinn fein is very much the slick media machine that could even teach tony blair a thing or two about spin

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

The Sinn Fein outreach programme to unionists starts

Plan to purge town of Protestant symbolism

By STEPHEN DEMPSTER Political Editor
SINN Fein plans to purge a town of symbols of Protestant and British culture have been exposed in the minutes of a damning council document.
Republican councillors in Limavady have drawn up a lengthy "petty sectarian wish list" of items they intend to have removed from inside and outside the local council offices in order to create a "neutral environment

ASSAULT
Alderman George Robinson of the DUP said: "This is nothing more than a full-frontal assault on the unionist people, not only of Limavady but of Northern Ireland."

The minutes of a special council committee – which includes SDLP members but which unionists refused to sit on – reveal that councillors did an "audit" of the council buildings last November.

And one by one they decided which items offended them and had to go.

So thorough was their trawl that the document reveals they had to do an internet search before they could establish if they were offended by a statue at the council doors.

After some lengthy debate, they decided they were. And so they want the monument to local man William Massey Ferguson, who left the town in the late 1800s and became Prime Minister of New Zealand, pulled down.

The committee recommendations are due before a full council meeting next Tuesday, at which unionists expect to be out-voted (nine-to-six) by a nationalist majority.

DISGUST
Last night, DUP Alderman and former Mayor of Limavady George Robinson said he was "shocked and disgusted" by what was in the council minutes.

He said he was deeply concerned at what sort of message this would send out to the mainly unionist people of the town of Limavady.

"Unionists knew what this was about and did not sit on the committee, knowing we would be out-voted on any suggestions.

"But picking out the statue of Massey Ferguson beggars belief. It is a tribute to one of the town's most famous and successful sons," said Mr Robinson

"It has been there 10 or 12 years and is causing offence to no one. They are planning to rip down a monument, a tourist attraction, and a tribute to a local man.

"According to Sinn Fein he was first and foremost an Orangeman and he made anti-Catholic speeches."

But Mr Robinson was just
as shocked at how petty and "narrow-minded" the inventory of the targeted items was.

As well as the statue the list includes:

* three pictures in a hallway, at least one of which was a gift from a regiment at Ballykelly Army base following a visit to the council;

* a Royal British Legion certificate;

* artwork presented to council by the 8th Infantry Brigade;

* a Charles and Diana mug;

* a little dragon from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards;

* a Royal Engineers paper weight;

* and a 22nd Regiment Cheshire plate.

He said: "As an MLA I sit up at Stormont and in fairness to Sinn Fein there have been times where they have looked at things and seen the bigger picture and not taken this attitude.

"This, though, is a major step backwards for community relations in the Limavady area."

DUP MP for the area Gregory Campbell added his disgust.

[tp]

So thorough was their trawl that the document reveals they had to do an internet search before they could establish if they were offended by a statue at the council doors.

The had to do an internet search to find out if they should be offended or not?

[Blue Angel]

I must say if this is actually occuring as written then it is indeed petty in the extreme. Most people think of tractors when they think of Ferguson - for fucks sake my grandfather and father were (and are in the case of the latter) extreme republicans (my father for example believes the IRA decomissioning arms was a major mistake) and even both of them would have thought of this as time wasting in the extreme. I might remove the Charles and Diana mug on grounds they were tacky though

If they wanted to why didn't they ask for maybe some of the Irish Defence forces to send something as a gift so they could have something on show from both sides (then again seeing as the Defence Forces loathe Sinn Fein on the whole maybe not..)

I don't view removal of one cultures right to express itself as neutrality but just the same old attitudes we have seen for centuries now in the north. I don't advocate unlimited rights to express your culture where it causes offence either but i fail to see how grown men and women can get worked up over such petty issues when real and present problems are there to be dealt with.

As an aside, Ferguson has already appeared on stamps issued by the ROI - a fact it might be worth communicating to some of the people in this debate...

[leeside]

halflife said:

The Sinn Fein outreach programme to unionists starts

Plan to purge town of Protestant symbolism

By STEPHEN DEMPSTER Political Editor
SINN Fein plans to purge a town of symbols of Protestant and British culture have been exposed in the minutes of a damning council document.
Republican councillors in Limavady have drawn up a lengthy "petty sectarian wish list" of items they intend to have removed from inside and outside the local council offices in order to create a "neutral environment

ASSAULT
Alderman George Robinson of the DUP said: "This is nothing more than a full-frontal assault on the unionist people, not only of Limavady but of Northern Ireland."

The minutes of a special council committee – which includes SDLP members but which unionists refused to sit on – reveal that councillors did an "audit" of the council buildings last November.

And one by one they decided which items offended them and had to go.

So thorough was their trawl that the document reveals they had to do an internet search before they could establish if they were offended by a statue at the council doors.

After some lengthy debate, they decided they were. And so they want the monument to local man William Massey Ferguson, who left the town in the late 1800s and became Prime Minister of New Zealand, pulled down.

The committee recommendations are due before a full council meeting next Tuesday, at which unionists expect to be out-voted (nine-to-six) by a nationalist majority.

DISGUST
Last night, DUP Alderman and former Mayor of Limavady George Robinson said he was "shocked and disgusted" by what was in the council minutes.

He said he was deeply concerned at what sort of message this would send out to the mainly unionist people of the town of Limavady.

"Unionists knew what this was about and did not sit on the committee, knowing we would be out-voted on any suggestions.

"But picking out the statue of Massey Ferguson beggars belief. It is a tribute to one of the town's most famous and successful sons," said Mr Robinson

"It has been there 10 or 12 years and is causing offence to no one. They are planning to rip down a monument, a tourist attraction, and a tribute to a local man.

"According to Sinn Fein he was first and foremost an Orangeman and he made anti-Catholic speeches."

But Mr Robinson was just
as shocked at how petty and "narrow-minded" the inventory of the targeted items was.

As well as the statue the list includes:

* three pictures in a hallway, at least one of which was a gift from a regiment at Ballykelly Army base following a visit to the council;

* a Royal British Legion certificate;

* artwork presented to council by the 8th Infantry Brigade;

* a Charles and Diana mug;

* a little dragon from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards;

* a Royal Engineers paper weight;

* and a 22nd Regiment Cheshire plate.

He said: "As an MLA I sit up at Stormont and in fairness to Sinn Fein there have been times where they have looked at things and seen the bigger picture and not taken this attitude.

"This, though, is a major step backwards for community relations in the Limavady area."

DUP MP for the area Gregory Campbell added his disgust.

'Petty' and 'narrow-minded' is right, but I fail to see how these are 'Protestant' symbols? Why do loyalists/unionists always refer to symbols of Britishness as symbols of Protestantism as though they are mutually exclusive when not one of the symbols mentioned have a single iota to do with religion.