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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Jan 12, 2008 2:56:08 GMT
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Jan 12, 2008 3:16:43 GMT
cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/population/popchangederry05.pdf"Thus the report provides insights into how conflict-related problems within Derry/Londonderry could be resolved through additional community, policy and political initiatives. The report acknowledges and explains feelings of alienation but also points to models of inclusion that challenge marginalisation and mistrust through a wider context of inter-community dialogue and the adaptation of existing policy and political structures. Such an objective requires the development of voices within the Protestant community that accept a duality between positive and negative circumstances. At present, however, few acknowledge that there have been more 5 positive outcomes in more recent years concerning enhanced mobility, a cessation of demographic decline and a recognition by many policymakers of the issues that affect the Protestant community. There is a distinct need to vocalise and promote these more positive changes. Similarly, the needs of the Protestant community must also be accepted as a consequence of demographic change, previous violence and political vulnerability. Nationalist communities must decide whether they view these needs as real or imagined. If such communities decide that there is validity in Protestant senses of insecurity and cultural and political decline, then they must articulate this shared concern. Without a Protestant recognition of certain improvements and a nationalist acceptance of Protestant marginalisation, then the future of Derry/Londonderry may well remain dominated by sterile and unimaginative political discourses."
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Post by Jim on Jan 12, 2008 4:18:43 GMT
So why did the ira target mainly Protesdtant towns??? Why did the ira carry out so many sectarian massacres against Ulster Protestants?? Why did they take part in putting Protestants out of their homes by both violence and campaigns of intimidation?  I have spoken to ordinary people about these things, I have spoken to ex security force members and they all say religion played a major part in the ira's campaign. There is decades of proof with thousands of witnesses, so whos word are you going to take, ex ira cowards who would deny it anyway or the word of the ordinary man, woman and child on the street who only wanted to get on with their lives. The ira were every bit sectarian as the uda/uvf if not more so. They are nothing more than a bunch of sectarian hate filled murdering bastards and I take it you disbelieve everything another ex-ira man had to say as in Sean O'Callaghan? Afterall he is ex ira as well. Because those towns would have been mainly unionist. Do you not see the common trend? Weither or not they where protestant is irrelevant, if they where catholic with union jacks the IRA would have done the same. I dont think religion played a major role at all, the catholic church had two opinions on the matter, its official line was that the IRA were wrong, instead left it to individual priests to take their own views on the matter and then take whatever action they deem is right. That means one priest would be calling them heroes and another would be spiting fire at them. Whos word I would take on the IRAs views of religion? Well, the only word you can take is of those that know. Would you be willing to take the opinion of a nationalist over the opinion of an orangeman on the order? Or the word of a citizen over the word of the police over how their structure works? The truth is only one set of people know what went on in the IRA truthfully, and thats the IRA themselves. Highly secretive that lot. I'm not saying what they done to protestants is right, I'm just saying it wasnt because they were protestants, it was because they where unionists and loyalists. |
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Post by Jim on Jan 12, 2008 4:20:11 GMT
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Post by Blue Angel on Jan 12, 2008 5:21:45 GMT
indeed i think we could do a little wee gallery of them - you know like on tony hart's art shows (older readers will recall him and his shows possibly) where readers sent in pictures of their own- we could have a prize for best mural sent in with marks based on 1)Most use of cliched symbolism (e.g. renderings of the famous cuchulain statue, ireland as a woman, british patriotic motifs etc) 2)Most bodies drawn out of proportion so figures look like dali and picasso got pissed and drew the damned things together and 3)Most quotes from familar sources jammed into one picture.
on a more serious note- wasp you are still trying to reduce a complex, contradictory long drawn out war t a simple black hats versus white hats struggle. This is not Star Wars, with the gallant rebels versus the utterly evil empire. It is reality and there are thousands of paradoxes and ambiguites over the course of the years. As Jim says, some people in the IRA were sectarian undoubtedly and their definition of what republicanism means and mine would clash. But as a whole republicanism is more outward looking than unionism and takes it's cues from a wider range of outlooks from around the world. That has always struck me as one of the key differences between republicanism and unionism- the former while been sometimes parochial is at times capable of looking beyond Ireland for ideas or directions whereas unionism is curiosly insular and self-contained which is why it has always had problems when it has to present itself on a world stage as it tends to look poor in such a context.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jan 12, 2008 5:25:07 GMT
also calling all IRA men 'murderous hate filled bastards' is not thinking it is merely parroting - applying the same epithets to all UVF members would be equally foolish as it would fail to take into account the wide range of reasons people joined either and reduces individuals to just the 'enemy'. Such dehumanizing cliches have long been part of the problem in Ireland - reduce people to 'hate filled bastard' or 'taig' or 'prod' and you don't have to formulate any more complex responses to challenge their outlooks as after all they must automatically be wrong mustn't they?
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Post by Wasp on Jan 12, 2008 13:57:31 GMT
BA wrote 'Such dehumanizing cliches have long been part of the problem in Ireland '
That's rich coming from you considering what you supported. I don't think you can complain about anyone alledgedly 'dehumanizing' with what the ira done to fellow human beings.
Anyway Iv'e had enough of talking to brick walls when it concerns the PUL community. Very few Protestants were ever targeted by the ira, the ira only really targeted the big bad security forces and they never ever played any part in ethnically cleansing anyone. Republicanism is the champion of defeating all evils and we Unionists are just a small, ignorant and insignifficant lot who try and make nothing but false claims. We Unionists will have to accept the ira are not bad at all and it was our politicians who scaremongered us in to believing them to be targeting Protestants instead of the decades of proof via the media.
Fuck us Prods are a thick bunch of tossers.
Au Revoir
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Post by Jim on Jan 12, 2008 19:39:11 GMT
Oh FFS, dry your eyes, no one has said anything like that.
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Jan 13, 2008 16:17:11 GMT
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Post by Jim on Jan 13, 2008 22:56:38 GMT
There was nothing to comment on. I agree with what it said.
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Post by earl on Jan 14, 2008 10:04:27 GMT
BA wrote 'Such dehumanizing cliches have long been part of the problem in Ireland ' That's rich coming from you considering what you supported. I don't think you can complain about anyone alledgedly 'dehumanizing' with what the ira done to fellow human beings. Anyway Iv'e had enough of talking to brick walls when it concerns the PUL community. Very few Protestants were ever targeted by the ira, the ira only really targeted the big bad security forces and they never ever played any part in ethnically cleansing anyone. Republicanism is the champion of defeating all evils and we Unionists are just a small, ignorant and insignifficant lot who try and make nothing but false claims. We Unionists will have to accept the ira are not bad at all and it was our politicians who scaremongered us in to believing them to be targeting Protestants instead of the decades of proof via the media. Fuck us Prods are a thick bunch of tossers. Au Revoir Oh come on WASP. I'm a Republican, and I think that there was a sectarian element to the campaign. Is that your answer to adversity? To run away? I thought you were bigger than that. |
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Post by Harry on Jan 14, 2008 18:18:40 GMT
I think WASP just needs to clear his head and i share his frustrations and while i don't know everything, it is clear that there is little if any understanding of how the IRA campaign was felt within the Loyalist community by most of our members on this site. I'm not going to harp on because i have already done so on so many occassions. The IRA campaign will never be viewed as anything other than Sectarian by the majority of the Protestant community. Now surely it can be understood why we would feel like this, so save all the bullshit about security forces,politics etc and accept that others view the IRA differently to yourselves. You don't have to agree with our view but i think WASP feels like instead of trying to understand our suffering it is more important for Republicans to self justify their actions and deny responsibilty for their part in sectarian actions.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jan 14, 2008 20:05:59 GMT
well i am quite happy to grant WASP his right to a point of view but it has to be a two way street - i don't think us viewing any of the participants in the violence via simplistic epithets like 'hate-filled bastards' is productive, whether it be the IRA,UVF or British army we are talking abut.
It's true I cannot understand how the IRA campaign was viewed within the loyalist community but I think we need to get to away from knee jerk reactions. I also am not the IRA's cheerleader - my support for them was always qualified - attacks on soldiers or police I could grasp but other actions did disturb me over the years and there were times when I felt internal discipline was lax to say the least and some units seemed to be running their own private war.
I felt near the end of the current round of violence that things had got pointless and that there was little point in killing (and that's what war is killing...) the odd squaddie every now and then as Britain has an infinite number and despite noises from the establishment about the tragedy of one been killed they know that really they could sustain the losses forever.Neither side could ever really win.
I'm not an absolutist die-hard republican a la those who support the RIRA for example - I accept the loyalist presence will be there for times to come in the North and that any solution will have to involve both Britain and Ireland.
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Post by Jim on Jan 14, 2008 21:28:02 GMT
I think WASP just needs to clear his head and i share his frustrations and while i don't know everything, it is clear that there is little if any understanding of how the IRA campaign was felt within the Loyalist community by most of our members on this site. I'm not going to harp on because i have already done so on so many occassions. The IRA campaign will never be viewed as anything other than Sectarian by the majority of the Protestant community. Now surely it can be understood why we would feel like this, so save all the bullshit about security forces,politics etc and accept that others view the IRA differently to yourselves. You don't have to agree with our view but i think WASP feels like instead of trying to understand our suffering it is more important for Republicans to self justify their actions and deny responsibilty for their part in sectarian actions. I suppose it would be seen similar to how we see the UVF and UDA/UFF. I find it hard to see it in that light or with how you feel about the IRA because I know quite a few that were in it or involved in some way over a long period of time. I think we are always going to have this, even in 50 years time there will be arguments the way people here have with Wasp or yourself. I think its more important that paramilitary activity has come to an end than who was right or wrong. |
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Jan 15, 2008 0:17:33 GMT
And yet if somebody made similer statements about the UVF/UDA as most of you are about the PIRA you would be the first to attack them and call them sectarian. For those of either side that still entertains thier side was some how better then other or had more ligitmacy then the other i recommend you read 'Political Murder in Northern Ireland' Martin Dillon, Denis Lehane, 1973. It shows the conflict up to what it really was, a grim tit-for-tat sectarian shooting match with little idology involved. The book is out of print so can be hard to get hold of but worth it.
No doubt this book and authors will be subject to the usual round of cat calls since they dare crtiercise the PIRA as something other then noble freedom fighters but hey us prods are used to that now
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