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Post by Wasp on Apr 9, 2008 16:32:28 GMT
Earl you and Jim have both mentioned the Ireland rugby team. The difference here is that the Ireland rugby team is meant to be represented by the players from both countries on this island. The Irish anthem is played in Dublin but it is offensive for GSTQ to be played in Belfast. Because of this I want N.I to have its own rugby team and fuck Ireland and the bigots who run it. Many Unionists supported the Ireland team but after their idiotic and bigoted handling of the anthems, many have now withdrawn their support although they still support Ireland but not to the same extent. Can you not see the major difference here.
There is a huge differnece between the two and therefore are not comparable.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 9, 2008 16:34:04 GMT
On this thread, I don't give a shit about the flag, and he same applies to political asperations, this thread is about football mate, not politics. He can't support N. Ireland because they are still British, that's what sticks in his crawl, that is why he is biggoted, he can carry his hatred to a bunch of guys playing football. NI was a state created by Unionists for Unionists. The NI team carry some of those symbols of state around with them. To a Nationalist, these flags and symbols are as alien any other flag and historically, do not represent them. This isn't bigotry. How can you support a flag that your community had no part in in the first place? On another thread, I stated my idea for a UI, which included the creation of new flags and symbols, agreed by everyone, for the new state. I'm not using double standards here. I wouldn't expect Unionists to go all gooey-eyed for the tri-colour under such a hypothetical circumstance, just as I don't expect Nationalists in NI to do at the moment for the long defunct 'Ulster flag' or Jack. The 'Ulster flag' is not the official flag of NI, but is used to represent NI football team, much the same as the Irish rugby and cricket teams (and I think boxing organisation) all use alternative flags that are not politically official. There is no reason for the IFA to use the 'Ulster flag'. Now I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but if they expect to become more supported from a cross-community perspective, they should stop acting surprised when it doesn't happen, while holding on to those symbols that represented the Unionist elite of the early decades of NI's existence. Bilk, you need to take a breath and calm down. Are you seriously comparing Jim's objection to the Ulster flag to those idiots who riot, sing sectarian chants and generally behave badly? Not even the same game, nevermind ballpark (excuse the analogy). At no point has Jim even spoke derogatory-like about the flag. He has just simply stated that it doesn't represent him. Nope. He has stated that if those symbols were removed, he would consider supporting NI. If he were bigoted, he wouldn't support NI if you threw a red hand on a tri-colour to replace it. The official flag for the IRFU is not the Tri-Colour. As far as I can remember, they fly their own flag, the tri-colour and the provincial flag of Ulster at these games. Is WASP and his kind bigoted for not supporting the Irish rugby team? He may well be (WASP) but then again he will argue that the Irish rugby team do not represent his country, they represent two countries. Jim does not even have that argument about the team he refuses to support, they are the national team of his country. He was born here, he lives here it is his country every bit as much as it is mine. But he can't see that through the green mist. Shows how much notice I take of flags at sport, I didn't even know what flags were flown, except that the tricolour was one of them. The argument is irrelevant since I have stated 'til I'm blue in the face, this is not about politics, it's about sport. The reasons jim gives for not supporting the national team are based totally on politics, that makes him biggoted in his thinking, not all bigots riot, some of them just stand around singing biggoted songs, or thinking biggoted thoughts. Jim made the mistake of voicing his biggoted thoughts. The guys who are out there playing together for N.I. can put those differences aside how much more should the supporters. And some of those mentioned on here, O'neil and Jennings being two, I would assume are nationalists. And they were cult icons of the N.I. national team for years, Armstrong too who scored the winner against Spain, who can forget that. Then again jim and his ilk would probably see those guys as traitors. While the politics of the coutry were not all they would have liked, they gave their all for their country. Why? because they didn't bring politics into theit sport, that's why. |
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Post by Bilk on Apr 9, 2008 16:39:03 GMT
Oh and on the issue of how N.I. came into being and for whom, I could argue about that but I won't this thread is about football.
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Post by Harry on Apr 9, 2008 17:16:32 GMT
Jim why would you try and compare it to the Irish rugby team?? The Irish rugby team is supposed to represent both north and south. The NI football team represents exactly that....Northern Ireland.
Bilk has said everything i would have said so no point repeating it again. You Jim are the one with the political points to prove, You Jim are bringing politics into football.
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2008 23:30:59 GMT
I'm going to have to step in here Bilk and check you on this. Scotland and Wales never went through the sh!t NI has. When it comes to flags, we know exactly what that means in NI. Sure in the 60's and 70's, a tri-colour in a window would cause a riot and was actually against the law to put up! Now if I say the Jack doesn't represent me, that's okay, but if Jim states it, he's a bigot. Why? We're both Irish. If he says it doesn't represent him, then it doesn't, and you'll have to live with it. nothing bigoted about it. If he slagged it off, or insinuated negatively about it, then he may be a bigot, but he has not. All he has done is state that it's not his flag and never will. Last I heard, having UI aspirations, and celebrating your Irish heritage was not an act of bigotry. On this thread, I don't give a shit about the flag, and he same applies to political asperations, this thread is about football mate, not politics. He can't support N. Ireland because they are still British, that's what sticks in his crawl, that is why he is biggoted, he can carry his hatred to a bunch of guys playing football. That is taking your bigotry much too far. He is in the same category, for me, as the biggoted bastards who spoil a sport for political ends like some Rangers and Celtic fans did in the past, that's the league he is in. It's a football team ffs. He can't stand in a football ground and support a football team because a flag is flying there, that is blind bigottery, I have stood at many a sporting event where the tricolour was flying. Why? because I am there to watch sport, it's not a political demonstration. I don't like the means by which that flag came into being, but it's there, and I live with it, I won't let it, nor for that matter, the National Anthem, keep me from watching and supporting Ireland playing rugby. And I certainly don't think the people who run the sport put it there to annoy me. If his thinking on this is not bigotted then it's an extreme form of paranoia. Don't talk dog shite Blik, if this was about football then people would have replied to my comments about football, instead people chose to reply to my comments about flags and fuck all else! I've not once in this thread said I don't support NI, I have said why others wont support it, why they will support the republic, and why NI will never appeal to them if this farse continues. Its got FUCK ALL to do with being british or with being irish for me I make no secret about my british citizenship. I am not biggoted rather I will call you biggoted for assuming that my grieviances with NI are secterian. They are nationalistic, and if you want to call them bigotted them you may look at your own fucking posts and wonder why. I can handle football, my arguments for football where ignored, so get to fuck with this bigot shite, I am no bigot, I do not give a fuck if you have stood for the tricolour; i have stood for the union jack, all I ask for at the very least is a flag and anthem that is both acceptable to me and you, as you would rightly ask of any all ireland team and as unionists have asked in the past. so seriously, get to fuck with this "im a bigot" shite, I'm clearly fucking not and take great offence at it. If you want to talk about sport, then answer my posts regarding football in the last page of this topic. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2008 23:34:40 GMT
Earl you and Jim have both mentioned the Ireland rugby team. The difference here is that the Ireland rugby team is meant to be represented by the players from both countries on this island. The Irish anthem is played in Dublin but it is offensive for GSTQ to be played in Belfast. Because of this I want N.I to have its own rugby team and fuck Ireland and the bigots who run it. Many Unionists supported the Ireland team but after their idiotic and bigoted handling of the anthems, many have now withdrawn their support although they still support Ireland but not to the same extent. Can you not see the major difference here. There is a huge differnece between the two and therefore are not comparable. 1. Dublin is the historic capitol of Ireland, at least according to the British during their occupation. 2. I have stated many fucking times that we can learn from from the rugby mistakes that I even agreed with you about in other topics. 3. There is not a huge difference between the two, until my sporting answers have been challenged and my reasoning which is as legitimate as yours in regards to flags and anthems has been answered. There has been no such reply. Double standards like fuck. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2008 23:40:14 GMT
He may well be (WASP) but then again he will argue that the Irish rugby team do not represent his country, they represent two countries. Jim does not even have that argument about the team he refuses to support, they are the national team of his country. He was born here, he lives here it is his country every bit as much as it is mine. But he can't see that through the green mist. I was born in Ireland, no matter what you think, that is how I feel. If you cannot accept that, you are the bigot. Not I. I have never said I do not support the NI, read my last reply for details. Come off it as if your arguments are not political, get real. International football is always about politics, its how much we give into politics which is important. Again, my last reply for details. No, I dont. Dont assume, highly biggoted of you after all  O'Neil has made no secret about his support for an all ireland team, neither did the NI hero George Best or others who have played for Ni who think two teams between a small nation is fucking pointless. Your points are as political as mine, difference is I made points on the actual team and an analysis which was ignored, so get it toghether for fuck sake. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2008 23:42:08 GMT
Jim why would you try and compare it to the Irish rugby team?? The Irish rugby team is supposed to represent both north and south. The NI football team represents exactly that....Northern Ireland. Bilk has said everything i would have said so no point repeating it again. You Jim are the one with the political points to prove, You Jim are bringing politics into football. I compare the irish rugby team because its the same grieviances. Wasp and yourself complained about anthems and flags. I complain about anthems and flags. If you cannot come to terms with that then your points on the Irish rugby team are invalid and so is any defence against the NI team. |
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Post by Harry on Apr 10, 2008 7:03:38 GMT
Jim what i complained about regarding the Irish rugby team and the NI team are completely different. The rugby team is supposedly 'united' and as such represents both sides of the border. I could accept the tricolor and the soldier song when playing in Dublin but i would of expected some sort of return gesture when the team played in N.Ireland. It didn't happen, we were treated like dogs so as such my support for the Irish rugby team ended.
What points ahve you made about football??? Your political filled posts have very little football. You continually talk about the population of this Island and then talk about 2 teams?? Hardly football....you mentioned Lafferty, Healy and a few ROI players...hardly deep analysis of why we would be better if it was one team!!!
There is very few NI players that would get into the ROI team and hold down a regular place. I'd rather have 11 NI men playing for NI than 1 or 2 playing in some sort of all Ireland team. Who is complaining about the lack of nationalist support for NI??? I certainly am not. I would be happy if they did support the team more but i can understand why they don't given the issues we have in this country.
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 12:01:43 GMT
Bilk,
Nationalists and Republicans consider their country of birth to be Ireland. If they didn't, they wouldn't be Nationalists and Republicans.
Bilk and Harry,
The Irish rugby team is a good analogy here. Your grievance is that the flags and anthems for the rugby team are not all inclusive and biased. You state that the main difference here is that the team consists of two states. Well, like it or not, NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community.
to expect a Nationalist to fully support the Ulster flag and GSTQ while standing within NI's borders is to completely misunderstand what the hell has been happening in NI for the last 80 years or so!
And Bilk,
Either you are misusing the word 'bigoted' here, or you are suggesting that the entire Nationalist community are a bunch of bigots for not being Unionists. To be politically against the Ulster flag and GSTQ is not being bigoted. To hate them for their close association to Protestantism could be classed as bigoted, but not being politically against it.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 12:42:52 GMT
Bilk, Nationalists and Republicans consider their country of birth to be Ireland. If they didn't, they wouldn't be Nationalists and Republicans. Bilk and Harry, The Irish rugby team is a good analogy here. Your grievance is that the flags and anthems for the rugby team are not all inclusive and biased. You state that the main difference here is that the team consists of two states. Well, like it or not, NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community. to expect a Nationalist to fully support the Ulster flag and GSTQ while standing within NI's borders is to completely misunderstand what the hell has been happening in NI for the last 80 years or so! And Bilk, Either you are misusing the word 'bigoted' here, or you are suggesting that the entire Nationalist community are a bunch of bigots for not being Unionists. To be politically against the Ulster flag and GSTQ is not being bigoted. To hate them for their close association to Protestantism could be classed as bigoted, but not being politically against it. Come on mate NI football team represents only one community? If that is the case, it's because, some, in the nationalist commuity want to see it that way, it fits their political ideology of the poor persecuted nationalist. That is not the fault of the IFA or the team. Their best and most famous players over the years have come from nationalist/catholic backgrounds. And were treated as icons by the N. Ireland supporters. If all you say were true they wouldn't even be playing for the team, they wouldn't be representative of the ubionist community. And there would have been more from that community on the team had they not shown that green mist in nationalism which encroaches even on a game of football. Those who chose instead to play for the republic, because they suffered from the same desease as Jim. There are two communities in the republic too mate, as can be seen around the 12th. I know that's not something at the forefront of the minds of the people in the republic. Because they don't go around in rangers tops or N Ireland tops. Or blowing people up because they don't like their political situation. But the 12th is about the only time they are seen, because for the rest of the year they are, put away in a cupboard, and treated like they don't exist. I happen to know several of them, and they think much the same as jim does about their position in the republic. And they support the RoI football team, and they support the Irish Rugby team. One of them even follows the Irish hockey team the big nancy. You know why that is, I'll tell you again, although I'm tired saying it. THEY DON'T BRING THEIR POLITICS INTO SPORT. |
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 13:38:37 GMT
Where in blazes did I say that? What I ACTUALLY said was NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community.
The Ulster flag does not represent the Nationalist community, nor even NI as a whole officially since the 70's. GSTQ does not represent the nationalist community. Have I stated anything that is not common knowledge here? Don't bring politics into sport? Bring it up with FIFA to ban the use of flags and national anthems. And it's no disease to want to play for their country. They consider the ROI their country and have the Irish passports to prove it. Looks like you've a bit to go to fully appreciate what exactly was in the GFA. If you have a problem with it, you'll have to vote for an anti-agreement party.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 13:46:41 GMT
As to the word "biggoted", I think you are splitting hairs here, you know as well as I do what the terms, "bigotted and sectarian" have come to mean in this country. The words are used for one side or the other, both politically and religeously. Just as the word "Feinian" has been bastardised to mean someone of the catholic faith. It's true meaning is of course something quite different. I think when we get to the point of splitting hairs like this we have lost the argument.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 13:54:42 GMT
Where in blazes did I say that? What I ACTUALLY said was NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community. The Ulster flag does not represent the Nationalist community, nor even NI as a whole officially since the 70's. GSTQ does not represent the nationalist community. Have I stated anything that is not common knowledge here? Don't bring politics into sport? Bring it up with FIFA to ban the use of flags and national anthems. And it's no disease to want to play for their country. They consider the ROI their country and have the Irish passports to prove it. Looks like you've a bit to go to fully appreciate what exactly was in the GFA. If you have a problem with it, you'll have to vote for an anti-agreement party. Oh this is just becoming ridiculous, so I can choose my country now, I fancy being an American today. No better still I'll live in America and tell everyone the star spangled banner doesn't represent me, because some of my ancestors were from North America. Don't call it that ffs it's Canada. Well call it whatever you like that's my country. Then get the feck out of here. No my civil librties says I can stay here and bug the hell out of people like you with my stupid political nonesense. wtf has all this got to do with a bunch of guys playing a game of football? |
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 14:05:02 GMT
So the only form representation takes is in a flag. I have given the most important way that the nationalist community were represented in the Northern Ireland football team, and you chose to ignore it, and harp on about a flag. They are represented by the players who play on the team. not by the paraphinalia surrounding the ground. Why do you keep trying to reduce this to an argument about politics, it is a thread about sport in general and football in particular. The green mist is falling again and you can't see past it. Read the name of the thread again please.
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