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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 15:22:36 GMT
Oh this is just becoming ridiculous, so I can choose my country now, No you can't You are born in the same country, but both governments will allow you to pick your nationality. This is the most basic of concepts contained within the GFA. It's been exactly 10 years ago, I thought this was common knowledge. And, as the world and his dog knows, Nationalists and Republicans pledge their allegiance to the ROI, both politically and usually in sports. As Jim has repeatedly pointed out, he was commenting on the football, and it was others that brought up everything else. You even accused him of bigotry, yet he hasn't even commented on religion or race. But I guess this does go to prove how one sided the symbols and anthem for the NI football team are, if you can accuse him of being a bigot for disagreeing with them. |
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Post by earl on Apr 10, 2008 15:32:26 GMT
So the only form representation takes is in a flag. I have given the most important way that the nationalist community were represented in the Northern Ireland football team, and you chose to ignore it, and harp on about a flag. They are represented by the players who play on the team. not by the paraphinalia surrounding the ground. Why do you keep trying to reduce this to an argument about politics, it is a thread about sport in general and football in particular. The green mist is falling again and you can't see past it. Read the name of the thread again please. Because everything with a flag in it in NI IS about politics. I didn't make it that way. I don't go around painting curbs or putting up bunting or hanging flags off every lamp post on the street, in some crazy form of a territorial p1ssing contest. there are Ulster players playing for Ireland, and it still doesn't stop some Unionists from not supporting the team because of the exact same issue of flags and anthems, yet you will call Jim a bigot. I've stated before on other threads that I understand where Unionists are coming from when they speak out at the way the IRFU carry on. I've stated in the past that I believe that only the IRFU flag should be raised on the ground they play and that only 'Irelands call' should be played. I didn't steam in and start calling people bigots. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 16:48:49 GMT
Bilk, Nationalists and Republicans consider their country of birth to be Ireland. If they didn't, they wouldn't be Nationalists and Republicans. Bilk and Harry, The Irish rugby team is a good analogy here. Your grievance is that the flags and anthems for the rugby team are not all inclusive and biased. You state that the main difference here is that the team consists of two states. Well, like it or not, NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community. to expect a Nationalist to fully support the Ulster flag and GSTQ while standing within NI's borders is to completely misunderstand what the hell has been happening in NI for the last 80 years or so! And Bilk, Either you are misusing the word 'bigoted' here, or you are suggesting that the entire Nationalist community are a bunch of bigots for not being Unionists. To be politically against the Ulster flag and GSTQ is not being bigoted. To hate them for their close association to Protestantism could be classed as bigoted, but not being politically against it. Come on mate NI football team represents only one community? If that is the case, it's because, some, in the nationalist commuity want to see it that way, it fits their political ideology of the poor persecuted nationalist. That is not the fault of the IFA or the team. Their best and most famous players over the years have come from nationalist/catholic backgrounds. And were treated as icons by the N. Ireland supporters. If all you say were true they wouldn't even be playing for the team, they wouldn't be representative of the ubionist community. And there would have been more from that community on the team had they not shown that green mist in nationalism which encroaches even on a game of football. Those who chose instead to play for the republic, because they suffered from the same desease as Jim. There are two communities in the republic too mate, as can be seen around the 12th. I know that's not something at the forefront of the minds of the people in the republic. Because they don't go around in rangers tops or N Ireland tops. Or blowing people up because they don't like their political situation. But the 12th is about the only time they are seen, because for the rest of the year they are, put away in a cupboard, and treated like they don't exist. I happen to know several of them, and they think much the same as jim does about their position in the republic. And they support the RoI football team, and they support the Irish Rugby team. One of them even follows the Irish hockey team the big nancy. You know why that is, I'll tell you again, although I'm tired saying it. THEY DON'T BRING THEIR POLITICS INTO SPORT.You really do not understand the nationalist community at all. Answer me this, if we changed the NI flag to the tricolour, would you feel its there for you, or for me? That Ulster flag has nowt to do with me and it never will, its not bigoted on my part, its not intolerant on my part, I don't see it as a flag with any historical meaning, just as a flag created by unionists to show how seperate they where. If you can't accept that then the word "bigot" shouldn't be in your vocabulary, as you clearly dont understand its meaning well enough. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 16:51:22 GMT
Where in blazes did I say that? What I ACTUALLY said was NI is a state which consists of 2 communities and the flags and anthems of the NI team exclusively represent only one community. The Ulster flag does not represent the Nationalist community, nor even NI as a whole officially since the 70's. GSTQ does not represent the nationalist community. Have I stated anything that is not common knowledge here? Don't bring politics into sport? Bring it up with FIFA to ban the use of flags and national anthems. And it's no disease to want to play for their country. They consider the ROI their country and have the Irish passports to prove it. Looks like you've a bit to go to fully appreciate what exactly was in the GFA. If you have a problem with it, you'll have to vote for an anti-agreement party. Oh this is just becoming ridiculous, so I can choose my country now, I fancy being an American today. No better still I'll live in America and tell everyone the star spangled banner doesn't represent me, because some of my ancestors were from North America. Don't call it that ffs it's Canada. Well call it whatever you like that's my country. Then get the feck out of here. No my civil librties says I can stay here and bug the hell out of people like you with my stupid political nonesense. wtf has all this got to do with a bunch of guys playing a game of football? No you can't chose you are American, America is a different continant, surprise surprise, Ireland is the island we are standing on. I don't see the ROI or NI as my country, I see Ireland as my country. It has loads to do with a bunch of guys playing football, for unionists it seemed to be enough with a bunch of guys playing rugby after all. If you genuinely want nationalists and republicans to support NI and to forget about an all ireland team, you may represent them in your anthems and flags so as they feel they mean something in the support. So as nationalist players don't go to the FAI, either. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 16:53:41 GMT
So the only form representation takes is in a flag. I have given the most important way that the nationalist community were represented in the Northern Ireland football team, and you chose to ignore it, and harp on about a flag. They are represented by the players who play on the team. not by the paraphinalia surrounding the ground. Why do you keep trying to reduce this to an argument about politics, it is a thread about sport in general and football in particular. The green mist is falling again and you can't see past it. Read the name of the thread again please. You gave nothing about how the nationalist community can or are represented in the team. What about the players, from NI, that went south? Can bet if Windsor park wasnt making players stand to god save the queen they would have more reason to think they are playing for their country. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 16:58:15 GMT
And, as the world and his dog knows, Nationalists and Republicans pledge their allegiance to the ROI, both politically and usually in sports. Sorry earl but should make it clear that I pledge allegiance to Ireland, the ROI is part of the partition to me although it offers Irish citizenship which I no doubt take up. It may use the same flag as I do and the same anthem but if NI where to become more inclusive with their flag and anthem I'd support them moreso. I think its quite funny, people are doing everything to make everything more inclusive in NI since it went for 70 years without that importance, schools, jobs, cross community schemes, some sports, citizenship, even some areas, but the second someone says "lets have a flag that represents the other 49% of the population in the national football team" we're called bigots, intolerant and told to get to fuck. Is that unionism? You, Blik, can sit and call people on the falls wearing ROI tops wankers all you want, it is you and your argument that would deny them representation in a flag and anthem and give them a reason to support the team, breaking down barriers where even I would be able to one day walk up the falls in an NI top without getting a kicking. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 17:06:34 GMT
Jim what i complained about regarding the Irish rugby team and the NI team are completely different. The rugby team is supposedly 'united' and as such represents both sides of the border. I could accept the tricolor and the soldier song when playing in Dublin but i would of expected some sort of return gesture when the team played in N.Ireland. It didn't happen, we were treated like dogs so as such my support for the Irish rugby team ended. What points ahve you made about football??? Your political filled posts have very little football. You continually talk about the population of this Island and then talk about 2 teams?? Hardly football....you mentioned Lafferty, Healy and a few ROI players...hardly deep analysis of why we would be better if it was one team!!! There is very few NI players that would get into the ROI team and hold down a regular place. I'd rather have 11 NI men playing for NI than 1 or 2 playing in some sort of all Ireland team. Who is complaining about the lack of nationalist support for NI??? I certainly am not. I would be happy if they did support the team more but i can understand why they don't given the issues we have in this country. Like I said my posts become more political as they were ignored otherwise. I don't claim they were a deep analysis or argument, but they are there to be read and it went unchallenged, you are the only one to say it wouldnt happen. I firmly believe that players from the north would play a big part in the all-Ireland team, or why else is the FAI constantly poaching players from up here? There's obviously some reason why they are doing so, there is a lot more emphisis up here on football than there is down south where more people would play GAA instead. Do you doubt that those players I mentioned wouldn't have a place on the team? Lets not forget Harry that an all-Ireland team would have one youth system and lets be realistic its absolutely vital if we want to get anywhere, a united team or not, NI has a much better one than the ROI but NI players don't get a lot of top flight game experience over in England. Why do you think England are shite but think they are the dogs balls? They rely on their big name players and don't work on a good youth system specifically for their national team, they just try and take players willing to play for England from the youth and first teams of the premier league, skipping a lot of work for what it takes to play internationally. This is the thing, I could accept GSTQ and the Union Jack in an all ireland team when played in Belfast, alongside whatever the new flag and anthem would be, and visa versa down south, Rugby didnt do that, and people complained, they complained when they heard the soldiers song at Ravenhill road (i think that was the case) and you yourself no longer support them for what has become political reasons, the same grieviances I have with the NI team. The IFA are certainly under pressure to get more nationalists onto the NI support, especially if they want to fill this new stadium in a few years. |
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Post by Wasp on Apr 10, 2008 17:15:17 GMT
Earl would you class a family of devout sdlp voters nationalist? I certainly do and yet they are big N.I supporters. For those who don't class N.I as their country and consider Ireland to be their country then they are in luck because the R.O.I has a football team that they can support. T
he award given to N.I supporters etc just proves how inclusive N.I football and its supporters are, Catholic players, Catholic captains and Catholic supporters. Now I know there are those who cannot bring themselves to support N.I unless they meet there demands and wishes, but they can always support the country that they claim to be part of and belong to and that is the republics team. Arguement settled with all sides having a choice of who to support.
That is why they can freely support the republic if they can't bring themselves to support N.I. Also Earl you are forgetting that there is only ONE international rugby team on this island but there are TWO international football teams. To try to compare rubgy with football is just crazy.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 17:28:15 GMT
Come on mate NI football team represents only one community? If that is the case, it's because, some, in the nationalist commuity want to see it that way, it fits their political ideology of the poor persecuted nationalist. That is not the fault of the IFA or the team. Their best and most famous players over the years have come from nationalist/catholic backgrounds. And were treated as icons by the N. Ireland supporters. If all you say were true they wouldn't even be playing for the team, they wouldn't be representative of the ubionist community. And there would have been more from that community on the team had they not shown that green mist in nationalism which encroaches even on a game of football. Those who chose instead to play for the republic, because they suffered from the same desease as Jim. There are two communities in the republic too mate, as can be seen around the 12th. I know that's not something at the forefront of the minds of the people in the republic. Because they don't go around in rangers tops or N Ireland tops. Or blowing people up because they don't like their political situation. But the 12th is about the only time they are seen, because for the rest of the year they are, put away in a cupboard, and treated like they don't exist. I happen to know several of them, and they think much the same as jim does about their position in the republic. And they support the RoI football team, and they support the Irish Rugby team. One of them even follows the Irish hockey team the big nancy. You know why that is, I'll tell you again, although I'm tired saying it. THEY DON'T BRING THEIR POLITICS INTO SPORT.You really do not understand the nationalist community at all. Answer me this, if we changed the NI flag to the tricolour, would you feel its there for you, or for me? That Ulster flag has nowt to do with me and it never will, its not bigoted on my part, its not intolerant on my part, I don't see it as a flag with any historical meaning, just as a flag created by unionists to show how seperate they where. If you can't accept that then the word "bigot" shouldn't be in your vocabulary, as you clearly dont understand its meaning well enough. I don't expect you to, you see you and earl both totally misunderstand what I am saying. I don't expect you to look bleary eyed at the Norther Ireland flag and frigging salute. I am suggesting that your paranoia won't even let you stand somewhere where it is, that goes way beyond saying it is not your flag. Call it bigotted or sectarian whichever you like they both mean the same to me. Or just a downright agitator none of them sound nice you are one of them in my eyes, if not all three. |
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 17:37:16 GMT
So the only form representation takes is in a flag. I have given the most important way that the nationalist community were represented in the Northern Ireland football team, and you chose to ignore it, and harp on about a flag. They are represented by the players who play on the team. not by the paraphinalia surrounding the ground. Why do you keep trying to reduce this to an argument about politics, it is a thread about sport in general and football in particular. The green mist is falling again and you can't see past it. Read the name of the thread again please. You gave nothing about how the nationalist community can or are represented in the team. What about the players, from NI, that went south? Can bet if Windsor park wasnt making players stand to god save the queen they would have more reason to think they are playing for their country. And your point is?  ?/ Plenty of Ulster Unionists stood for the republics national anthem when playing rugby for Ireland. It is sport ffs, I bet the other countries of the world in football don't cringe when the German national anthem is being played when germany play here or around the world. So O'neil/Jennings/Armstrong are not representetive enough for you? Don't try to lump all catholic nationalists into your republican green world jim. Only political insignia is all you care about, you are a sectarian bigot, and I thought better of you. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 17:38:17 GMT
[ That is why they can freely support the republic if they can't bring themselves to support N.I. Also Earl you are forgetting that there is only ONE international rugby team on this island but there are TWO international football teams. To try to compare rubgy with football is just crazy. 1. The only way to change those supporting the republic is to make NI as inclusive as possible, welcoming them, knowing that they can go watch them without having to stand for an anthem that means nothing, to take pride in the team and their "country". 2. I mentioned Rugby because its the exact same grieviances. You yapped about flags and anthems, I do the same. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 17:40:24 GMT
You really do not understand the nationalist community at all. Answer me this, if we changed the NI flag to the tricolour, would you feel its there for you, or for me? That Ulster flag has nowt to do with me and it never will, its not bigoted on my part, its not intolerant on my part, I don't see it as a flag with any historical meaning, just as a flag created by unionists to show how seperate they where. If you can't accept that then the word "bigot" shouldn't be in your vocabulary, as you clearly dont understand its meaning well enough. I don't expect you to, you see you and earl both totally misunderstand what I am saying. I don't expect you to look bleary eyed at the Norther Ireland flag and frigging salute. I am suggesting that your paranoia won't even let you stand somewhere where it is, that goes way beyond saying it is not your flag. Call it bigotted or sectarian whichever you like they both mean the same to me. Or just a downright agitator none of them sound nice you are one of them in my eyes, if not all three. I misunderstood nothing, you misunderstand the need for a proper flag and a proper anthem, even if its not going to make me misty eyed and patriotic, it still needs to be done or else NI is still a team for british unionists, not for my community, who if we dont stand for the anthem have people muttering under their breath and looking disgusted. Call me what you want, I see it otherwise. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 17:43:03 GMT
You gave nothing about how the nationalist community can or are represented in the team. What about the players, from NI, that went south? Can bet if Windsor park wasnt making players stand to god save the queen they would have more reason to think they are playing for their country. And your point is? ?/ Plenty of Ulster Unionists stood for the republics national anthem when playing rugby for Ireland. It is sport ffs, I bet the other countries of the world in football don't cringe when the German national anthem is being played when germany play here or around the world. So O'neil/Jennings/Armstrong are not representetive enough for you? Don't try to lump all catholic nationalists into your republican green world jim. Only political insignia is all you care about, you are a sectarian bigot, and I thought better of you. Did they stand for it in Belfast? Did they? I find that hard to believe. It IS sport, but it is INTERNATIONAL sport, nations represented in football, people represented by their teams, represented by their flags when playing home and away, you don't get that at all. O'Neil and others mentioned are in favour of the all Ireland team anyway it seems. If I'm a secterian bigot then so are you, you can't grasp the idea of having an inclusive flag for NI, if me proposing that is secterian or bigoted, then I am proudly so. Becausee unlike you, my posts in favour of it have been for symbols that are shared, not exclusive, yours have. Sounds very bigoted eh? Get a grip. |
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Post by Bilk on Apr 10, 2008 17:45:51 GMT
Oh this is just becoming ridiculous, so I can choose my country now, No you can't You are born in the same country, but both governments will allow you to pick your nationality. This is the most basic of concepts contained within the GFA. It's been exactly 10 years ago, I thought this was common knowledge. And, as the world and his dog knows, Nationalists and Republicans pledge their allegiance to the ROI, both politically and usually in sports. As Jim has repeatedly pointed out, he was commenting on the football, and it was others that brought up everything else. You even accused him of bigotry, yet he hasn't even commented on religion or race. But I guess this does go to prove how one sided the symbols and anthem for the NI football team are, if you can accuse him of being a bigot for disagreeing with them. [/quote/] He hasn't mentioned religeon or Race, My race is British/Northern Ireland and he has told me he can't even support the team from his country because the flag of my country offends him. He in my eyes is a sectarian bigot and nothing, no slithering excuse for what he said will excuse that. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 10, 2008 17:51:12 GMT
There is no team that represents my country, you don't understand that at all. Furthermore, the NI team doesnt want to represent me, you don't want it to represent me, god forbid having a flag and an anthem that would get "those wankers from the falls" wearing ROI tops to finally pay attention to NI knowing that they arent staring at Ulster Banners and listening to someone sing about saving a Queen they feel nothing about.
You really don't fucking get it, I'm genuinely surprised at you Blik I thought of all unionists on this board you would be one to understand that, but you just don't get it.
Whats this "he can't even support the team from his country because the flag of my country offends him?" That doesnt even make sense, if it was my country why is it your flag? Does that use of wording not even suggest that the flag has nothing to do with me? So why isnt that changed for the better? I'd be willing to change the tricolour if it was used by here if it was needed.
In my eyes you are the secterian one, you are the bigot, and while entitled to your opinion, you have as much understanding of nationalists and republicans as you do of martians. You don't want to know, either. So I'm not the bigot here.
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