|
|
Post by An Fear Dubh on May 10, 2008 17:00:30 GMT
But surely every speech in the Assembly is a political speech!!
The Assembly is a political forum, where politics are supposed to be debated. Where views are expressed and challenged, and if the majority so wish then points are won or lost. Under our system protection is given to Unionist and Nationalist views where one might directly oppose the other, and Irish is one such issue that seems to agitate Unionists but Nationalist feel this is Unionism trying to dominate and subvert Nationalist cultural expression. If Gerry is rude in your eyes for expressing himself in a political forum in a language that many within the nationalist tradition view as part of their culture then you need to examine yourself. Because Gerry is making a legitimate political point for equality for the use of the Gaeilic language, and those that wish to surpress such equality are more than rude.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 10, 2008 21:05:56 GMT
But surely every speech in the Assembly is a political speech!! The Assembly is a political forum, where politics are supposed to be debated. Where views are expressed and challenged, and if the majority so wish then points are won or lost. Under our system protection is given to Unionist and Nationalist views where one might directly oppose the other, and Irish is one such issue that seems to agitate Unionists but Nationalist feel this is Unionism trying to dominate and subvert Nationalist cultural expression. If Gerry is rude in your eyes for expressing himself in a political forum in a language that many within the nationalist tradition view as part of their culture then you need to examine yourself. Because Gerry is making a legitimate political point for equality for the use of the Gaeilic language, and those that wish to surpress such equality are more than rude. Many in the unionist community see th OO as part of their tradition and see that tradition trampled on by the very same people who would like to hear the Irish language spoken even though they haven't a clue what's being said. At least when I am watching an OO parade I know what it's about. And I never said anything about making speeches in the assembly, I was talking about news conferences and political speeches. When he wants to make me understand what it is he wants regarding the Irish language wouldn't it be better if I could understand what it is he's saying he wants, as opposed to making political gestures? And for years I was on the management committee of an Irish language college, I know what those who have a real interest in the Irish language think of Gerry and his posturing. Don't try to kid me you believe for one moment that he is promoting the Irish language when he is being downright rude. All he is doing is his version of waving a flag. |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on May 10, 2008 23:59:39 GMT
aye, because I'm only speaking irish to annoy people like you. right? You've never spoken Irish in front of me or to me so I don't see how you could be. But Gerry and the boys making a political speech in Irish to a room full of people who don't understand a word of it, certainly is. I repeat that is tantamount to a unionist making a speech and first waving a union flag or worse still in the eyes of nationalists/republicans an Ulster flag. It is nothing but a political gesture, and belittles the Irish language, by dragging it down into sectarian politics. He is rude in the extreme. A while back you complained to me that I was a bigot for not accepting your flag at a football match. If you can't accept the Irish language being spoken in Ireland by a party elected by nationalists and republicans, then maybe bigottry and a lack of acceptance is your own problem. as AFD said, the Assembly is a political forum, politics will be spoken and no matter the language, politics is still the issue. I understand SF speeches and so do all who speak the Irish language, believe it or not there are quite a few of us. If anything you are rude in saying I shouldn't be speaking my own language. Not I, I'm not rude for replying to someone in Irish when spoken to in Irish. Its perfectly acceptable for me to do so in every sense. That is the general consensus with people who speak two or more languages. You should keep in mind that in every single speech or statement given by Adams, he gives an english equilivent. They are a party that supports and commits to the Irish language and any promotion for the language, what do you expect them to do? Don't be a fool. |
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 12, 2008 19:05:21 GMT
You've never spoken Irish in front of me or to me so I don't see how you could be. But Gerry and the boys making a political speech in Irish to a room full of people who don't understand a word of it, certainly is. I repeat that is tantamount to a unionist making a speech and first waving a union flag or worse still in the eyes of nationalists/republicans an Ulster flag. It is nothing but a political gesture, and belittles the Irish language, by dragging it down into sectarian politics. He is rude in the extreme. A while back you complained to me that I was a bigot for not accepting your flag at a football match. If you can't accept the Irish language being spoken in Ireland by a party elected by nationalists and republicans, then maybe bigottry and a lack of acceptance is your own problem. as AFD said, the Assembly is a political forum, politics will be spoken and no matter the language, politics is still the issue. I understand SF speeches and so do all who speak the Irish language, believe it or not there are quite a few of us. If anything you are rude in saying I shouldn't be speaking my own language. Not I, I'm not rude for replying to someone in Irish when spoken to in Irish. Its perfectly acceptable for me to do so in every sense. That is the general consensus with people who speak two or more languages. You should keep in mind that in every single speech or statement given by Adams, he gives an english equilivent. They are a party that supports and commits to the Irish language and any promotion for the language, what do you expect them to do? Don't be a fool. No1, are you listening carefully? I never mentioned the Assembly, what them idiots all speak sounds like greek to me anyway, never mind Irish. No2 When you are rejecting the flag of my country, you are rejecting the flag of the country you were born in and lived in, I find that downright insolent and rude. The Irish language is not the language of this country, it's not even the official language of the RoI, two totally different arguments, try to stay on thread. No3 Oh I'm sorry I should be grateful that he danes to speak the language he was taught at school, the one he is supposed to use as his first language, in what is after all the UK. He speaks in Irish first, as though it were the first language of any country. Don't pretend for one moment he is not making a political statement when he is doing that, because no one will believe you. Irish is not your language it belongs to no one, it is spoken nowhere except by shit stirring polititions and those interested enough to learn it. There is nowhere where it is the first language of any country. I repeat go and ask the people who are trully interested in the Irish language and they will tell you what they think of Gerry and his posturing. |
|
|
|
Post by bearhunter on May 12, 2008 19:51:38 GMT
"not even the official language of the RoI,"
Yes it is. It is officially the first language of the ROI.
"it is spoken nowhere except by shit stirring polititions and those interested enough to learn it. There is nowhere where it is the first language of any country."
I think the people of Gweedore, Connemara, Dunchaoin, Beara and Corca Dhuibhne might disagree that it is spoken only by politicians and thsoe interested enough to learn it. In the Gaeltachta it is the native language. ANd as I said earlier, it is the official language of the ROI. But isn't this meant to be a chill-out thrread? WHy is everyone getting so exercised over this?
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on May 12, 2008 19:55:07 GMT
A while back you complained to me that I was a bigot for not accepting your flag at a football match. If you can't accept the Irish language being spoken in Ireland by a party elected by nationalists and republicans, then maybe bigottry and a lack of acceptance is your own problem. as AFD said, the Assembly is a political forum, politics will be spoken and no matter the language, politics is still the issue. I understand SF speeches and so do all who speak the Irish language, believe it or not there are quite a few of us. If anything you are rude in saying I shouldn't be speaking my own language. Not I, I'm not rude for replying to someone in Irish when spoken to in Irish. Its perfectly acceptable for me to do so in every sense. That is the general consensus with people who speak two or more languages. You should keep in mind that in every single speech or statement given by Adams, he gives an english equilivent. They are a party that supports and commits to the Irish language and any promotion for the language, what do you expect them to do? Don't be a fool. No1, are you listening carefully? I never mentioned the Assembly, what them idiots all speak sounds like greek to me anyway, never mind Irish. No2 When you are rejecting the flag of my country, you are rejecting the flag of the country you were born in and lived in, I find that downright insolent and rude. The Irish language is not the language of this country, it's not even the official language of the RoI, two totally different arguments, try to stay on thread. No3 Oh I'm sorry I should be grateful that he danes to speak the language he was taught at school, the one he is supposed to use as his first language, in what is after all the UK. He speaks in Irish first, as though it were the first language of any country. Don't pretend for one moment he is not making a political statement when he is doing that, because no one will believe you. Irish is not your language it belongs to no one, it is spoken nowhere except by shit stirring polititions and those interested enough to learn it. There is nowhere where it is the first language of any country. I repeat go and ask the people who are trully interested in the Irish language and they will tell you what they think of Gerry and his posturing. 1.Sinn Fein statements are political statements and they can speak Irish wherever and whenever they like, politically or not, its already a political issue so lets not pretend that it isnt. 2.The Irish language is the language of Ireland, you are part of Ireland, languages know no borders, especially not those that aren't even 100 years old yet. If I'm to reject the "country of my birth" through flags then you are rejecting the land of your birth. That goes beyond borders mate, you know it, I know it, so whats your argument about? That N.Ireland has floated out a bit from the rest of the country and is now an island of its own? 3.They can think what they want about Gerry Adams using the Irish language, it is a language for anyone to use it how they see fit, afterall thats what a language is, a form of communication. |
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 12, 2008 20:06:10 GMT
No1, are you listening carefully? I never mentioned the Assembly, what them idiots all speak sounds like greek to me anyway, never mind Irish. No2 When you are rejecting the flag of my country, you are rejecting the flag of the country you were born in and lived in, I find that downright insolent and rude. The Irish language is not the language of this country, it's not even the official language of the RoI, two totally different arguments, try to stay on thread. No3 Oh I'm sorry I should be grateful that he danes to speak the language he was taught at school, the one he is supposed to use as his first language, in what is after all the UK. He speaks in Irish first, as though it were the first language of any country. Don't pretend for one moment he is not making a political statement when he is doing that, because no one will believe you. Irish is not your language it belongs to no one, it is spoken nowhere except by shit stirring polititions and those interested enough to learn it. There is nowhere where it is the first language of any country. I repeat go and ask the people who are trully interested in the Irish language and they will tell you what they think of Gerry and his posturing. 1.Sinn Fein statements are political statements and they can speak Irish wherever and whenever they like, politically or not, its already a political issue so lets not pretend that it isnt. 2.The Irish language is the language of Ireland, you are part of Ireland, languages know no borders, especially not those that aren't even 100 years old yet. If I'm to reject the "country of my birth" through flags then you are rejecting the land of your birth. That goes beyond borders mate, you know it, I know it, so whats your argument about? That N.Ireland has floated out a bit from the rest of the country and is now an island of its own? 3.They can think what they want about Gerry Adams using the Irish language, it is a language for anyone to use it how they see fit, afterall thats what a language is, a form of communication. Thank you, you were the one pretending that it wasn't a polical issue. It was a deep interest in the Irish language that drove Gerry to do what he was doing. I am glad you now agree with me that it is sabre rattling. And I still think he is downright rude and patronising to those who are actually interested in the Irish language. Language can only be a form of communication if the people you are addressing can understand what you are saying, if they can't they are not you are not communicating. The Irish language has no border because there is nowhere it is spoken as the first language, and that includes the whole island of Ireland. |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on May 12, 2008 20:11:57 GMT
I don't like to see it as a political issue as such I don't deny that.
I've said before one of the biggest reasons (maybe the biggest..) I voted for Sinn Fein was for the Irish language. I've spoken it since I was 3 and Sinn Fein are the only party dedicated to it. So its going to be political from then on in considering its a. the minority language, and b. unionism is very hostile to it.
I don't see his use of it patronising, I can understand what he says perfectly, there are a few elitists that dont like his choice of words, but its like saying you wouldn't be able to understand a scouser when you clearly would. Every speech said in Irish is another step towards recreating a working language used in all (most) areas of society.
A lot of people understand what Adams is saying, his Irish is not complex but he gets his message across perfectly, many many of us that vote for SF understand Irish even if its not to a large understanding, so he is still communicating to his electorate in a language they want and sometimes do understand. Anyone who can't comprehend that shouldn't be arguing about languages.
Yes there are places it is spoken as a first language. There are Gaeltachts dotted up and down the island and it is spoken as a first language in many homes. The barrier the language faces is first language use socially, outside the home. It is probably a more popular language in the north than it is in the south, so it has everything to do with Northern Ireland - schools in the North teach it differently than they do in the south and there is a lot more interest generated from that as the language is passed on. I know because I went through an education system in Irish and re-took classes (even helped teach some of the more basic classes) years later.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 12, 2008 20:18:33 GMT
"not even the official language of the RoI," Yes it is. It is officially the first language of the ROI. "it is spoken nowhere except by shit stirring polititions and those interested enough to learn it. There is nowhere where it is the first language of any country." I think the people of Gweedore, Connemara, Dunchaoin, Beara and Corca Dhuibhne might disagree that it is spoken only by politicians and thsoe interested enough to learn it. In the Gaeltachta it is the native language. ANd as I said earlier, it is the official language of the ROI. But isn't this meant to be a chill-out thrread? WHy is everyone getting so exercised over this? Don't know how long you've been away mate, but at the last count that I read, about 2% of the Irish population were fluent in Irish and used it as their first language. I'm sure if you look long and hard enough in America you might find people who speak cherokee as their first language, it hardly makes it the first language in America. I started out by simply saying that I thought it was rude to speak to people here in any language they don't understand, asuming of course you can speak English. I even gave as an example two people who speak perfect English having a conversation in french in a room full of English people who couldn't understand them as being rude. But to defend Gerry and his political posturing people on here have said that was ok. Or worse still tried to twist what I said. I stand by what I said. |
|
|
|
Post by bearhunter on May 12, 2008 20:24:47 GMT
I'm not saying that Irish is the dominant language in ireland, but it is OFFICIALLY the first language of the state.
|
|
|
|
Post by earl on May 13, 2008 8:56:19 GMT
Irish is a part of NI culture, whether you like it or not Bilk. The Ulster legends of Cuhulainn are written in Irish, and most placenames in NI are of Irish origin. Irish was spoken in the area that is NI centuries before there was a Scot or Protestant about the place, so your idea of NI history must only go back as far as the 1920's.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 13, 2008 21:57:48 GMT
Irish is a part of NI culture, whether you like it or not Bilk. The Ulster legends of Cuhulainn are written in Irish, and most placenames in NI are of Irish origin. Irish was spoken in the area that is NI centuries before there was a Scot or Protestant about the place, so your idea of NI history must only go back as far as the 1920's. Northern Ireland doesn't go back any further than the 1920's mate. And I wasn't arguing about history, I was arguing about the Today. Gerry Adams wasn't around in the 1920's. Today the Irish language is not the official first language of any country in the world and that includes the RoI. And by the way I am Irish and so is anyone born on the island of Ireland whether they are a protestant or not. About 10 generations of my family were born here so I'm no emigrant from Scotland or anywhere else. |
|
|
|
Post by bearhunter on May 13, 2008 22:24:42 GMT
Semantics, I know, but Bilk if I could just introduce you to Article 8.1 of the Irish Constitution: "The Irish language as the national language is the first official language."
Now I know the de facto language of the country is English, but the official first language of the Irish Republic is Irish.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jim on May 14, 2008 2:40:36 GMT
I can't find the post where anyone claimed it was the first spoken language.
The constitution of Ireland will say that its the first official language as it is a nationalistic thing to do, since languages are above all else, an expression of identity as well as being a form of communication. Tribles, people and races are usually defined firstly by language, secondly by culture, language becomes part of that culture.
We all speak English, my first language was neither one or the other, I spoke both equally and fluently by the age of 4.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bilk on May 14, 2008 12:21:48 GMT
I think we have talked this one to death, I'll accept what you say about the constitution as fact, because I don't know enough to argue. I still feel that what Gerry did was rude. I said "did was" because I don't hear him doing it much these days, I take that as an acceptance by him that what he was doing was, shall we say "unacceptable" to a large section of the community in N. Ireland. And was not in keeping with the peace process.
|
|
