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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 11, 2008 22:26:41 GMT
I am not sure of 'the rules' in the chill out zone but this does seem like a political debate, and should be free from restraints. I commend Wasp for his restraint but feel he is abiding by protcol when it is clear others are not.
My personal view is that there is merit to the view that it is rude to speak in a social context in a language that not everyone in the company understands. But let us not fool ourselves by pretending that the Irish language has not been used by both sides as a political football. And that speeches in political Assemblies are political. We can not now easily seperate or pretend to seperate the Irish language from politics. We can also see how International politics and the Oylimpics have entwined. We see with the Maze stadium proposal and other Irish sporting issues that politics is entwined.
I like Jim speak a bit of French and German and if addressed would reply in the same, but I would question the motives of the speaker if others were present that did not understand. Unless it was in a political situation and a political was being made.
I do not believe that Gerry Adams and others are simply speaking Irish to antagonise others but I can see that it might. The point is political but not simply towards ulster unionists but to a wider audience both local and international that there is a section who live here who do have a different cultural expression.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 12, 2008 18:49:58 GMT
I am not sure of 'the rules' in the chill out zone but this does seem like a political debate, and should be free from restraints. I commend Wasp for his restraint but feel he is abiding by protcol when it is clear others are not. My personal view is that there is merit to the view that it is rude to speak in a social context in a language that not everyone in the company understands. But let us not fool ourselves by pretending that the Irish language has not been used by both sides as a political football. And that speeches in political Assemblies are political. We can not now easily seperate or pretend to seperate the Irish language from politics. We can also see how International politics and the Oylimpics have entwined. We see with the Maze stadium proposal and other Irish sporting issues that politics is entwined. I like Jim speak a bit of French and German and if addressed would reply in the same, but I would question the motives of the speaker if others were present that did not understand. Unless it was in a political situation and a political was being made. I do not believe that Gerry Adams and others are simply speaking Irish to antagonise others but I can see that it might. The point is political but not simply towards ulster unionists but to a wider audience both local and international that there is a section who live here who do have a different cultural expression. Very few of whom understand a god damned word Gerry is saying. |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 15, 2008 9:19:54 GMT
Bilk it does not matters to the international audience if they understand a word of Irish that Gerry says or not. The point that has been made is that in Ireland there is a section of society that have a different form of culture to British
And again to the local audience it is irrelevant who or how many understand Gerry's broken words. The point being made is that there is a section of society that do want to express themselves and their culture in a different way.
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Post by Bilk on Apr 15, 2008 11:14:55 GMT
Bilk it does not matters to the international audience if they understand a word of Irish that Gerry says or not. The point that has been made is that in Ireland there is a section of society that have a different form of culture to British And again to the local audience it is irrelevant who or how many understand Gerry's broken words. The point being made is that there is a section of society that do want to express themselves and their culture in a different way. Exactly, it is tantamount to a unionist making a speech and first waving a union flag or worse still in the eyes of nationalists/republicans an Ulster flag. It is nothing but a political gesture, and belittles the Irish language, by dragging it down into sectarian politics. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 15, 2008 15:36:11 GMT
On the other end of that stick it may interest others to take up the language who may have been hesistant before or just not bothered.
Language is a form of communication, it doesn't matter if Adams doesnt speak brilliant Irish, if we look at the English language we will see variations all over the world, could someone in Singapore (who for the vast majority are fluent in English) understand cockney rhyming slang after all? I don't understand it. Elitism is what kills languages especially ones that need a push and any Irish spoken is positive for me, it does not have to use perfected grammar. I don't have a problem understanding Adams' Irish and its probably on par with a lot of peoples understanding of the language who aren't obsessed with getting every bit of grammar and vocabulary perfectly down. If what he is saying is understandable, then it is a successful use of communication.
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Post by bearhunter on Apr 15, 2008 22:42:20 GMT
I find Adam's Irish perfectly understandable, but its not very complex or technical. Thats a good thing, elitism only kills the language and when it starts to become understandable in different forms it shows growth. Only have to look at the hundreds of styles you can speak English in to see what I mean, and thats in England alone! If someone talks to me in Irish, I will answer them in Irish. It may be rude to talk in a different language to a mate, in a room full of English speakers, but I see it as equally rude to reply to someone in a different language. So if a french guy comes up and speaks to you in french, then you must answer in french? Come on jim you'll have to do better than that! My reply to that mate would be "This is neither the time nor the place to be speaking Irish" I don't mind a greeting, that is differerent, it is quite obvious to all listening that it is a greeting. Setanta does it all the time on here, that doesn't bother me. But to have a long winded conversation or to make a speech in a language which, quite clearly, the vast majority of the people present cannot understand, when you can speak perfect English, is downright rude. And I say that of any language, not just Irish. Would you and a mate start a thread on here where few know the language? no I don't think so. By that logic Bilk, you won't be able to complain when you ask someone in, say, Paris for directions and they look at you blankly until you ask them in French. |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Apr 15, 2008 22:46:44 GMT
Yes, it is a political gesture/statement. But Gerry does not drag it down into sectarian politics, that is done for him by those that fall into his trap. If Unionism was more mindful they could reduce the political advantage that Gerry gets from the Irish language. But this attitude of 'not an inch' means Gerry gains miles and the whole of unionism is weakened by this entrenched rejection of anything that might be Irish or nationalist in colour.
I remember a couple of years back Ballymena councilors objected because the town council had bought cheaper bottles of water for the council tables in an effort to reduce costs. But these cheaper bottles were 'Tipperary' water, one wonders if they had been from France would they have objected as strongly??
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Post by Bilk on Apr 16, 2008 11:59:50 GMT
So if a french guy comes up and speaks to you in french, then you must answer in french? Come on jim you'll have to do better than that! My reply to that mate would be "This is neither the time nor the place to be speaking Irish" I don't mind a greeting, that is differerent, it is quite obvious to all listening that it is a greeting. Setanta does it all the time on here, that doesn't bother me. But to have a long winded conversation or to make a speech in a language which, quite clearly, the vast majority of the people present cannot understand, when you can speak perfect English, is downright rude. And I say that of any language, not just Irish. Would you and a mate start a thread on here where few know the language? no I don't think so. By that logic Bilk, you won't be able to complain when you ask someone in, say, Paris for directions and they look at you blankly until you ask them in French. I can tell you something about the french they will look at you blankly until you try to communicate with them in their own tounge. Try it sometime. If you try, they will be happy to show their skills in English, but if you try to force them to speak English to you, they will ignore you. This is taking what I said totally out of context anyway, and I think you know it. I am talking about two people in Ireland, who can speak English but speak in french, that would be rude. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 16, 2008 16:23:50 GMT
The French are a poor comparison to the rest of Europe, they probably hate (alright, dislike) the English more than anyone else in Europe and have complete contempt for their culture and language, that just came from a centuries long rivalry with everything, fashion, language, empire, trading, political ideas, arts.. the two countries tried to outdo each other in just about everything. Two people in Ireland speaking to each other in French would indeed be rude, but two people in Ireland speaking in Irish wouldn't be in my opinion, I've every right to speak to a friend in Irish and often do so, if they want to continue the conversation in English then we will do so, I don't think I would sit with a large crowd of mates in the pub and talk in Irish to the person beside me just because no one else would be able to understand me. But if someone asked me what the time was in French I would reply in French, because they took the time to ask me in French. That is, if I can answer in French  I'm not very good at it and would just use the oppurtinity to practise it anyway. |
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Post by Bilk on Apr 16, 2008 20:16:14 GMT
The French are a poor comparison to the rest of Europe, they probably hate (alright, dislike) the English more than anyone else in Europe and have complete contempt for their culture and language, that just came from a centuries long rivalry with everything, fashion, language, empire, trading, political ideas, arts.. the two countries tried to outdo each other in just about everything. Two people in Ireland speaking to each other in French would indeed be rude, but two people in Ireland speaking in Irish wouldn't be in my opinion, I've every right to speak to a friend in Irish and often do so, if they want to continue the conversation in English then we will do so, I don't think I would sit with a large crowd of mates in the pub and talk in Irish to the person beside me just because no one else would be able to understand me. But if someone asked me what the time was in French I would reply in French, because they took the time to ask me in French. That is, if I can answer in French I'm not very good at it and would just use the oppurtinity to practise it anyway. Two people Speaking in room full of English speaking people in another language, any language, when those same two people speak perfect english, is rude, You can go on all day about your right to speak in whatever language you like, and yes, you have that right, but don't expect people not to think you are rude, in those circumstances. |
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Post by Jim on Apr 17, 2008 0:10:08 GMT
People thinking I'm rude when speaking Irish is the least of my worries when I speak it.
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Post by Jim on May 7, 2008 14:41:54 GMT
Mate I don't even understand what the website is trying to do, theres not a whole lot of stuff on it.
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Post by Bilk on May 8, 2008 17:59:06 GMT
People thinking I'm rude when speaking Irish is the least of my worries when I speak it. I've noticed that most rude people don't mind what people think of them being rude, actually they usually take great pleasure in it. |
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Post by Jim on May 8, 2008 18:46:23 GMT
aye, because I'm only speaking irish to annoy people like you.
right?
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Post by Bilk on May 9, 2008 19:38:54 GMT
aye, because I'm only speaking irish to annoy people like you. right? You've never spoken Irish in front of me or to me so I don't see how you could be. But Gerry and the boys making a political speech in Irish to a room full of people who don't understand a word of it, certainly is. I repeat that is tantamount to a unionist making a speech and first waving a union flag or worse still in the eyes of nationalists/republicans an Ulster flag. It is nothing but a political gesture, and belittles the Irish language, by dragging it down into sectarian politics. He is rude in the extreme. |
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I'm not very good at it and would just use the oppurtinity to practise it anyway.