UI anthem

[Republic]

Republic, who says the Anthem will change after Unity? 5 6ths of Ireland have no problem with it at all and I've yet to hear any alternative never mind a comprimise proposed by Unionists. (maybe this is an issue for another thrend)

Why would it stay the same?

Would a UI not be a new state where both cultures are treated with respect and fairness?

Or would it just be an extension of the ROI?

A new flag and anthem would be essential, to reflect the unionist community and to acknowledge their Britishness.

The tricolour and Amhran na bhFiann are not offensive to us, but they are to unionists, in the same way that GSTQ and the Union Flag is offensive to shinners.

Bunreacht na hEireann would perhaps have to be gotten rid of, or at least altered in some way.

[Jim]

Unionists dont seem to mind the union flag and GSTQ even though its not accepted by nationalists, because they're the majority in this state, because direct democracy at this time is suiting them.

The anthem and flag will be the last of peoples worries.

When a united Ireland happens it'll be through the majority in the south and the majority in the north, direct democracy. Whether it favours unionists or not is their problem if they want to see it as a problem. They signed up to an agreement based on consent and the most realistic united Ireland is an extention of the republic, and the north being autonomous. Thats what Blair and Ahern had in mind. Bunreacht na hEireann will stay in place because a constitution is the backbone of any republic, changes would be part of the referedum on a united Ireland.

Lets get it straight, I'm all in favour of equal rights in a 21st century western country, the same standards of living if not better than other european countries, and respect for all traditions. I'm not in favour of a small minority on an island having a veto over the rest of the island on national flags, symbols and anthems when more than 5/6 of the island is fine with them (that is the current republic and one half of northern ireland). You'd not get that happening in the UK, in France, or in any other country.

[Republic]

Unionists dont seem to mind the union flag and GSTQ even though its not accepted by nationalists, because they're the majority in this state, because direct democracy at this time is suiting them.

Does that mean we ignore them in a UI just because they ignored you in NI?

No it doesn't. That will lead to more violence and more unrest. Why not be smarter than that and actually make them feel welcome?
What is the point in repeating their mistakes?

The anthem and flag will be the last of peoples worries.

I agree, but we both know how important symbols are to all of the sensitive souls in NI

When a united Ireland happens it'll be through the majority in the south and the majority in the north, direct democracy.

Agreed.

Whether it favours unionists or not is their problem if they want to see it as a problem.

Thats the attitude that will cause division and tension. Why not try and accomodate them rather than saying 'tough shit'?

What have you got to lose by making them feel welcome?

They signed up to an agreement based on consent and the most realistic united Ireland is an extention of the republic, and the north being autonomous.

I dont know if the ROI would sign up to that. If it was an extension of the ROI, then NI better come under the control of Dublin.
No more of this special case treatment, if you're a part of the ROI, then you should be treated the same as every other region.

An extension of the ROI is completely unrealistic in that it would be completely unacceptable to unionists. Its a nationalist state.

Are we going to create a super-nationalist state or are we going to create a proper, united country?

Thats what Blair and Ahern had in mind. Bunreacht na hEireann will stay in place because a constitution is the backbone of any republic, changes would be part of the referedum on a united Ireland.

Well then trouble would be on the way.
The preamble to the constitution would certainly need to be changed.

Lets get it straight, I'm all in favour of equal rights in a 21st century western country, the same standards of living if not better than other european countries, and respect for all traditions. I'm not in favour of a small minority on an island having a veto over the rest of the island on national flags, symbols and anthems when more than 5/6 of the island is fine with them (that is the current republic and one half of northern ireland). You'd not get that happening in the UK, in France, or in any other country.

Those countries did not have the same conflict as NI has had, neither do they have the same history as Ireland, with regard to competing identities.

[Republic]

Can you tell me what the alternaive anthem should be then Republic?

No. I have never even thought about it.

What is it about Amhran na bhFiann that is offensive?

It doesnt offend me in the slightest. It does however, seem unacceptable to unionists. So maybe ask them.
I would guess for the same reasons that you find GSTQ and the Union flag unacceptable.

Its not rocket science.

[Republic]

I have asked before and they've said it doesn't represent them but they never articulate their point, so I have no clue as to why it should be changed and if no one can give a reason then it shouldn't be changed.

So they have said it doesnt represent them?

There you go then, why would it be kept if it doesnt represent them?
Why not create a new flag that represents everyone?



Who says they cannot articulate themselves- you, SF, Gerry Adams, who?
Who is to be the judge?

You keep saying if it isn't change there'll be trouble. What Loyalist Group said this?

No loyalist group has said this as far as I know.

Does that mean it wont happen?

I'm not stupid setanta, don't try that one with me.
Just because a loyalist group has not said it, does not mean there is no chance of violence ever happening.

Let me ask you a Q- if a UI occurs, and there is no change to the flag or anthem, or no meaningful measures to accommodate and respect unionists, do you expect unionists to accept it peacefully?

Or do you expect them to put up a fight?
Especially when one sees the precedent set by extreme republicanism in the last 30 years.

[Republic]

they never articulate their point, so I have no clue as to why it should be changed and if no one can give a reason then it shouldn't be changed.

For arguments sake. I will articulate and i will give a reason

The PIRA waged a war against the British presence in Ireland.
Unionists desire a British presence in Ireland. Indeed, they are the British presence in Ireland.
So the PIRA waged a war against, if not unionists themselves, then against their way of life at least.

The PIRA claimed to be fighting for Ireland. They regard the tricolour as their national flag.

Therefore unionists see the tricolour as being representative of a group that wished to exterminate them.

It doesnt matter that the tricolour supposedly represents orangeism, nor does it matter if the unionists have perceived it wrongly.
What matters is not that they are correct or incorrect, what matters is that is the way they perceive the tricolour and as such, it will never ever ever ever represent them, no matter what you, I or Bertie Ahern or anyone says.

Unionists perceive the tricolour as being republican and therefore unacceptable.
That is the reason and the articulation you were looking for.

Think of it in terms of the union flag- the saltire is meant to represent Ireland- do you accept it?

Of course not, it represents imperialism to you.

So just think of it from a unionists point of view. Its not hard to grasp.

Its all about perceptions- AFD mentioned it before with regard to decommissioning I think.

[Harry]

Republic your doing a grand job ;D ;D ;D

Listen it seems that some attitudes are simply they'll like it or lump it. Thats how they have done it, so thats how we''l do it. Attitudes like this will ensure further bloodshed i can gaurantee you, and no loyalist group has to say it.

The tricolor doesn't represent me and never ever will. The soldier song isn't my anthem and never ever will be. I've no idea what compromise we can find but there must be some cos neither the tricolor or the soldier song will allow true peace

[Republic]

The lack of a reason is the judge.

reasn already given.

They say it's the Anthem of a neighbouring country. OK, good point BUT when there is a referendum and you become part of that country what is the reason that the Anthem isn't acceptable?
What is the reason that it should be changed?
Be specific.

Reason already given.

Doesn't mean it will either. Stop predicting doom and writing like Kevin Meyers unless you have something to say that it WILL happen

You have no reason to say that it wont happen. So why not err on the side of caution?

I never said that, I said no Loyalist Group has said that there'd be violence over the Anthem. As far as I can see not one of them has mentioned it.

Same here. I dont think they would go to war over the anthem. But you're missing the bigger picture.
Its what the anthem represents. They would go to war over te fact that they were not being respected.

I do expect the vast majority of Unionists to accept it peacefully because
1)It'll happen democratically in a free and fair referendum,
2)They have always said that the democratic will of the majority is paramount as well as ensuring the rights of the minority.

agreed but its the violent minority I'm on about.

I see nothing in Bunreacht na hEireann that will repress or discriminate against Unionists and they will have their rights to British Citizenship guaranteed under the GFA.
Do you see anything wrong here?

B na hE is a nationalist document. Its quite a good document IMO but in the event of a UI I dont think it would be any harm to alter the more nationalist elements of it.

I expect a tiny minority of Loyalists to fight no matter what arrangements or concessions are in place when Ireland is United.

you could be right.

You mean after every peaceful civil rights approach was dismissed and beaten off the streets?
Sorry pal there's no comparison to a Referendum on Irish Unity and the foundation of the 6 county state. For a start if the Boundary Commission had of adhered to the real terms of the treaty it would have been only 3 counties, and you know the rest yourself.
If Nationalists had of had equal rights under the old Stormont Regime then no matter how much Republicans like me wanted Unity, there wouldn't have been the support there for it, never mind the support for an armed conflict.
What we are talking about it a free and fair referendum, not a treaty signed under the shadow of an Imperial Armies Guns.

I dont know about that, I think there would always have been support for a UI no matter how well they were treated.

Look at Ireland in 1916 and how well it was doing- that didnt stop any desire for independence.
The same could have applied to NI.
I hope you aren't implying that the PIRA campaign was about civil rights- that is clearly not the case.

Is the Tricolour the flag of the IRA?

The IRA doesnt have a flag as far as i know?? i could be wrong though.
The tricolour is the flag of a state which claimed the territory of NI.
It is the national flag for the members of the ira.
Can you not see how unionists would have a problem with it?
Seriously now?
Your telling me that unionists have no reason not to dislike the tricolour?

Do you agree, with what you assume, that Unionists attitude to the Tricolour is?

What do you mean here- I dont follow?
I absolutely dont think the tricolour is an IRA flag, and i have no problem with the tricolour. The difference is that I can see how unionists would have a problem with it- you cant.
Or can you, and you're just ignoring them?

I suspect you don't and if you don't then why would you want to change it for a reason you don't agree with?

I would change it to show unionists that I respect their difficulties with the tricolour. While I regard it as being my flag, I would have no problem changing in order to create trust between communitys.

Are you interested in victory, or peace?

The point was made to you before about speaking for Unionists, and the point was that you can't really do it you can only assume. So let our more than capable Unionist members speak for themselves.

Yes these are all assumptions that i have gathered from talking to unionists.
But if you cant even convince me, what chance do you have of convincing unionists?
I have no interest in a UI where unionists arent respected.
When a UI is able to acknowledge its Britishness, then I will support it.

And I will not stop speaking from a unionist standpoint- SF claim to represent Ireland, I will challenge them as an Irish person and see how tolerant they are and see what vision they have for my country.

BTW the St Patrick's Salutare on the Union Flag is actually the Heraldic Flag of the Fitzgerald's and has no connection to St Patrick AT ALL. Dublin Castle chose it in the 1700's to represent Ireland, the people of Ireland didn't chose the colours.
On the Other hand Unionism chose Orange as it's colour. See my point?

I never said it had a connection to St Pat.
I said it represents Ireland. You reject it because it was chosen for Ireland, rather than by Ireland.

Orange was chosen by unionism, but not for a flag. If they were asked (which they weren't), maybe they would have picked the union flag or some other symbol to represent them on a flag.
They never said orange would represent them on a flag.
Just because you say it represents them does not make it so- they didnt even pick orange to be on the NI flag!
Why not let them choose themselves?

I see one of the few unionists here has spoken up- It echoes my own comments

Listen it seems that some attitudes are simply they'll like it or lump it. Thats how they have done it, so thats how we''l do it. Attitudes like this will ensure further bloodshed i can gaurantee you, and no loyalist group has to say it.

The tricolor doesn't represent me and never ever will. The soldier song isn't my anthem and never ever will be. I've no idea what compromise we can find but there must be some cos neither the tricolor or the soldier song will allow true peace

So now you know my assumptions were not inaccurate.

[Jim]

Does that mean we ignore them in a UI just because they ignored you in NI?

No it doesn't. That will lead to more violence and more unrest. Why not be smarter than that and actually make them feel welcome?
What is the point in repeating their mistakes?

I agree, but we both know how important symbols are to all of the sensitive souls in NI

Put it this way. Harrys post in this thread talks about how the tricolour and anthem will never represent him. Therefore your logic is to change it. What I'm saying is where is the change when I say the union jack and GSTQ doesnt represent me? The attitude I've gotten from unionists when I say it doesnt represent me is "well this is what the official flag is and your on british soil". Cant hardly expect more than 5/6 of the island to drop everything, change what most of us have no problem with for a small number of people when no matter what flag and anthem its going to be they arent going to accept it anyway. A united Ireland is not going to happen through a united unionist vote, its going to happen through a nationalist vote.

Thats the attitude that will cause division and tension. Why not try and accomodate them rather than saying 'tough shit'?

What have you got to lose by making them feel welcome?

I'm not ruling it out, its too far off in the future for me or anyone to start even thinking about flags to be honest with you, if the flag was changed tomorrow, the tricolour would still be my flag, it would be the same flag outside my house, plastered all over my estate and the same flag I feel represents me nationally.

I dont know if the ROI would sign up to that. If it was an extension of the ROI, then NI better come under the control of Dublin.
No more of this special case treatment, if you're a part of the ROI, then you should be treated the same as every other region.

An extension of the ROI is completely unrealistic in that it would be completely unacceptable to unionists. Its a nationalist state.

Are we going to create a super-nationalist state or are we going to create a proper, united country?

What is unrealistic about it? The ROI would sign up to it, thats what has been agreed too, in the event of a united Ireland, Stormont is to remain with some degree of local power. That means we still elect TDs to the Dáil, and we also elect MLAs to Stormont.

I think your idea of expecting loyalists and unionists to drop it all and just sign up to the Dáil is even more unrealistic. A united Ireland with local government for Northern Ireland is favoured by the parties up north, and Fianna Fail have accepted that, and lets be serious, Fianna Fail dominate Irish politics in every way shape and form. When it comes to constitutional issues parties in the UK and Ireland have an agreement not to bollocks things up and just go with the flow, that exists with Tory and Labour, and exists with FF and FG.

I mean, your talking about no more of this special treatment, but your proposing to change the national flag, and the national anthem, for a population of about 600,000 that dont even want to be part of the state, and by the time of a united Ireland its expected for the southern population to be around 8 million!!

If the anthem and flag are to be changed then the make up of the state should be changed, go the full length, federalise the country, localise it, we wouldnt be the only small country to do so successfully.

Those countries did not have the same conflict as NI has had, neither do they have the same history as Ireland, with regard to competing identities.

No, your right, they didnt, but they did have problems and they overcame their problems. Most countries in Europe have had a religious divide whether its big or small. Do we want to continue to be the middle east of Europe? I'm certainly not competing my identidy with unionists, as far as I'm concerned they eat breath and drink the same as me, inhabit the same city and look the same as me, we just disagree on politics and what passport we hold. I dont see it as different ethnicities at all.


Too many people arent reading the two agreements enough and looking between the lines. A lot of political issues in the UK, and in the south, are solved by common sense. Its inevitable that Stormont wont disappear in a united Ireland, and I doubt the anthem or flag of Ireland is going to change either. People in the north will probably always be entitled to British citizenship, British diplomatic service, and it'll help the two new countries work closer since we share the two main islands on western Europe. I think of it as a relationship like the one between Norway and Denmark, its very similar actually.

[Republic]

A very good and well thought out post there Jim. I would agree with much of it.
I would take exception to this part

The attitude I've gotten from unionists when I say it doesnt represent me is "well this is what the official flag is and your on british soil". Cant hardly expect more than 5/6 of the island to drop everything, change what most of us have no problem with for a small number of people when no matter what flag and anthem its going to be they arent going to accept it anyway. A united Ireland is not going to happen through a united unionist vote, its going to happen through a nationalist vote.

I would be of the opinion that nationalists need to rise above that attitude.
If unionists adopt that that tone, let them, but you should rise above it.
Some unionists would accept the democratic vote and they would participate in a UI, however grudgingly, at first.
They are the ones who should be welcomed and accommodated and it is only then that the rest of the community could accept it.

Our standards should be higher than petty point scoring.
If everything is done correctly and respectfully, unionists will never have a justifiable reason to use violence against a UI state.

[Jim]

We do need to rise above that attitude but its very frustrating to be told that the flag that represents something like 40% of the population is void and has no place in this state. It makes us feel we arent part of this state no matter what agreements are made, that the state is still a protestant british state made for protestant british people in britain.

I dont think for a second unionists will accept a tricolour in a united Ireland, just the way I'll never accept a union jack as my own flag. There'll still be union jacks all over the shankill and sandy row for decades and they are entitled to that. If the flag was to be remade the tricolour would still be plastered all over andersonstown and the falls road.

How would we even go about making a new flag? Almost all emblems are seen as for one side, same with colours, the tricolour to me still represents what it was originally meant to represent, peace between divides in an irish republic. There is no other flag I can think off that even comes close to that meaning, hijacked or not over the years.

[Republic]

We do need to rise above that attitude but its very frustrating to be told that the flag that represents something like 40% of the population is void and has no place in this state. It makes us feel we arent part of this state no matter what agreements are made, that the state is still a protestant british state made for protestant british people in britain.

As frustrating as it is, I still hope you would rise above it.
I know its easier for me to say that, being down south and all , but still, the point stands.

I certainly know where you are coming from alright, but the correct thing is to rise above it. Although easier said than done.

[Jim]

What would you propose for a flag and anthem?

[Republic]

jim said:

What would you propose for a flag and anthem?

Dont know.
I like the ones we have now, but I know that it would not be right to keep them in the event of a UI.

I suppose a flag would have to be representative of both communities.
I dont know what unionists would want- perhaps a small union jack symbol in the corner (like on australias flag), or maybe a crown symbol, or even a red hand. Tbh, I dont know enough to pick something to represent them.

As regards nationalist representation, perhaps a harp. Or a pint of Guinness (and before someone jumps in, I know Arthur Guinness was a Protestant Unionist).

Flags are not that important to me, but I know they are quite important to others.

And the likes of setanta would be absolutely sick at the thought of a crown or union jack on an irish flag, but hey, if you want to take on NI, then you'd better be prepared to take on its British aspects too ;D


What would you suggest Jim?

[Republic]

I forgot to mention an anthem.
I would imagine a new one could be wrote.
Or perhaps just a piece of music- do we really need words?
Some countries just have music.

I dont know, Im sure others could come up with far better suggestions than me.