Willie F analyses anti-semitism in Irish history

[blueman]

setanta said:

blueman said:

Well I suppose both the Irish State and the Irish people as they are both linked to helping the Nazi War Machine and are both Anti Jewish to say the least.

OK blueman you said this. ^^
Since then you haven't backed this statement with any facts which say the Irish State and People helped the Nazi War Machine.
You were given a link on Irish Neutrality which you haven't commented on.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality
you were also given examples on how and where the Irish State, although neutral, back the Allied War Effort for example ; the decision to go ahead with the D-day landings was decided by a weather report from Blacksod Bay, County Mayo.
You haven't commented on any of this even though it disproves your earlier assertions.
So can you comment on this now please or withdraw the earlier statement about Ireland and her people helping the Nazi War Machine.


Then you said this

Does this equal the Irish State and People?
Because these links say different

Here's the State stepping on the IRA.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency#The_IRA_and_The_Emergency
"Two IRA men were executed for the murder of two policemen in September 1940, and the IRA became increasingly ineffective in the face of the resolute use of internment, the breaking of hunger strikes, and the application of execution for capital offences. During 1941, the hope of a German invasion had faded and funding from the United States had been cut off. The IRA leadership were mostly interned within the Curragh internment camp, where they were treated increasingly harshly, or on the run. "

So where is the support and help for the Nazi War Machine?

You made this point
That was in 1939 and was done without the support and knowlage of the Abwehr. Russell as head of the IRA saw himself as President of Ireland and had declared war on Britian. You are misrepresenting the facts.



We've covered that and we've also covered the fact that both facists and anti-facists have attacked his statue.


We have made the point that no one knew how evil the Nzis were at that time.
You responded with this
Their actions we that were reported at that time were of a country at war and no different from the actions of their oppononts.
Or can you tell me what they did different than the allies at that time?



As did Britian, and a whole lot more went there for santuary so why are you making it out that Ireland is somehow more anti-semetic? Have you put your order in for this book yet?
www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Delayed-Britain-Became-Criminals/dp/184212126X

I can't comment on this because I've googled that guy and no information at all came up so can you provide a link please?

They did

blueman said:

so they granted notorious War Criminals the right to live on Irish soil.

Bit of a leap this without evidence.

Look blueman, we all know that Ireland took in Nazis after the War, and so did a whole load of other countries.
BUT, you still haven't qualified your statements that the Irish State and Irish People helped and sympatised with the Nazis.
Now I've provided links to support the my points. Please do the same with yours.

Sorry I have been away for a few days and I am trying to play catch up. Having read your link I have to say that at least Michael McDowell is man enough to stand up and tell the truth.

With regards the alledged help the Allies received prior to the D-Day landings it was obvious who was going to win the war at that stage so it would be in the interests of the Irish State to hedge its bets. If Hitler and his henchmen would have won it might have been a different scenario and the true face of Irish Fascism would have been revealed. I strongly suspect it would have been a bleak outlook for the Jews and the Protestants.

If the IRA had to be interned even by the Free State Government it is very obvious to all but the willfully ignorant where their sympathies lay during the Second World War. Like their mentor in Berlin the true nature of the beast was exposed and they too think that they are the only people with a right to exist and everyone who refuses to bow to their hateful politics is to be exterminated. I suppose that is why they call themselves 'Ourselves alone' and indeed like attracted like.

The leader of the IRA died on a German U-Boat, thankfully, and that is conclusive proof that the IRA conspired with their Nazi couterparts in their attempts to subdue the British people to their evil regimes. The murderous attacks during the war in Belfast and the rest of the UK shows exactly what these murderers are all about but what are a few historical facts like that to get in the way of Republican myth and propaganda. Sure they are only Irish Freedom Fighters helping to free Ireland from British oppression. The reality is that they are the oppressors and have the Irish people cowered to their evil ways until this day but the last elections give us some hope that the blinkers are coming off Irish eyes.

Maybe you are right people didn't know how bad the Nazis were and all those invasions were misconstrued and the Nazis like the IRA were just a bunch of affable and loveable craicsters just out for a bit of a hooley. Unless of course you were a Jew or a Protestant or even a Roman Catholic who wouldn't lick their jackboots and bow down to their murder and intimidation.

The Blueshirts, the Irish Christian Front, DeValera, Sean Russell, mass rallies in support of Fascists, Irish neutrality during the war, refusal to take Jews in, attitude of Roman priests to Jews etc, etc the list goes on and on to show that the Irish State was hostile to Jews and sympathetic to Nazis but at the end of the day if you don't want to believe the obvious that is up to you.

I have already stated that not all the Irish supported Fascism and many thousands came and volunteered to fight for the Allies. We owe such brave Irishmen and Irishwomen a debt of honour and considering the political landscape such brave men and women were coming from just adds to their valour as they were risking life and limb both at home and at war. I feel that they should be granted double honour for theirs was a double sacrifice.

[Wasp]

At the moment during this thrend you made a lot of accusations about Ireland and her people and even the IRA without knowing many of the facts at the time. Can you see why there was so many posts from Nationalists in response to what you said?

Now I think you are trying to twist round what I said, when did I attack the people of Ireland? Why are you ignoring the posts about those who bravely fought against the nazis along with other parts of my posts???

What I posted was what I read but you dismiss it because you think you are right and my links are all wrong.

You asked blueman wtf has a priest got to do with Ireland. Are you serious? Who ran the country and in health and education they still do.

[Wasp]

Setanta I tried but failed on the quote thingy so plz try and follow me as I answer your points.

On your point of my post which went 'Any country who gave any help to the nazis.........' etc, you said that was an accusation you have a problem with.

Isn't what I said a true and valid point? Did I single out Ireland by saying 'ANY COUNTRY'? I stand by what I said and will say so again because any country should be ashamed of itself and give a full apology and explanation.

On your point on the ira helping the nazis to bomb Belfast you have has much right to give your view and to believe or disbelieve it. Why though did no-one seem to counter what they said at that time?

On the priest, what era did the priest live in, what was the church's role in Ireland right up to recent times? Does the church have any influence on health and education at all? So I think Bluemans point on that priest is a valid one. But I never said every Roman priest is anti-jewish, but in the vaticans teachings they are up untill recently blaming the jews including present day ones for Christ's death. The vatican is anti-jewish and through the centuries has been anti-anyreligion/faith that has stood up to them or did not bow down to there demands which resulted in many many deaths among those that didn't. So on those points blueman is spot on.

[Wasp]

To do with the 'Any country....'etc I explained what I meant but you wrote 'OK, then who specificly are you refering to?'

I could be wrong but I feel you are disecting my posts to try and back your own accusations/suggestions against me. Why are you not looking at the whole picture?

I replied to this post below by blueangel.

BLUEANGEL WROTE 'WASP should we ask Britain and the US why after the war over two thirds of all officials in Germany, including many complicit in the Nazi regime, were still serving in their posts? '

MY REPLY WAS 'Why shouldn't we ask for these answers? Any country who gave any help to nazis after they found out exactly what the nazis did beside invade countries should be ashamed of themselves and give a full apology and some kind of explanation.

Blueangel why did you feel the need to ask me that? Is it because I am keeping with the thread title but mentioning Ireland too much or what?

Now where did I single out Ireland in any country? You are trying to suggest that I am saying something different. Blueangel asked about Britain and the US so I think my answer covered everycountry, so how you took it that I singled out Ireland is beyond me.

SETANTA WROTE 'If I release a statement, as an un-named anti-everything group sayign that Unionists were responsible for the Luftwaffe bombing Dublins North Strand in 1942 would you get your knickers in a twist? Of course not!'

No I wouldn't but with such an alledged untruth I would imagine republicans would be very very quick to counter it which they do with about everything else so why not this?

To do with the churchs role you wrote 'To be Churchy? WTF does that mean? Does being churchy include the things the Catholic church allowed and protected?

What kind of church would have allowed the behaviour of the Catholic church in Ireland in any democracy. While I would not blame every clergy etc the fact remains the church ruled Ireland with an iron fist at times and covered and protected those that abused and kept on abusing the most vulnerable in society. The fern report should even tell you that. They were in charge of health matters and used there own religious beliefs to rule who got what treatment etc and what form of religious education was taught.

Are you going to defend such a church? Are you going to condemn those within the church who were involved in treating Irish citizens the way they did? But as I said not all clergy were involved and I am sure many were horrified.

[Blue Angel]

Fair enough answer there WASP about my question about Nazi figures remaining in power after WW2. The reason I asked it was to illustrate that despite stuff like the Nuremberg trials the fate of the Jews was not that urgent a priority (after all the Russian judge at Nuremberg had been part of Stalin's show trials and had probably killed as many Jews as some of the Nazis he was trying!) A few main figures were executed etc., a lot of the others were left in power for the practical reason no-one else was there to do the job and practicality rules above morality in politics ultimately.

Also, look at anti-semitisim in some of the allied countries -are you aware that a large number of the surviving Polish jews who tried to go home found fellow Poles had confiscated their homes and pushed them out of the country again by intimidation and force (maybe it was cos the Poles are a fellow Catholic country or maybe it might be that anti-semitism was an European wide force as previously pointed out)

[Blue Angel]

let us not pretend anti-semitisim was not there in Ireland, but let us not pretend it was some uniquely wicked place as a result, it was in EVERY European country, let's have a few examples, The Dreyfus affair, Blood Libels, etc. etc. I happen to have made something of a study of the maddness that is anti-semitic thought and it varies little from country to country sadly, and yes the inclusion of the prayer about praying for the jews in the catholic mass till the 1970s was shameful but it was not unique to the roman catholic church, you will find similar prayers in some more traditional russian and greek orthodox churches to this day also.

[Jim]

I'm lost in a page of quote boxes!

Ofcourse anti-semitism was in Ireland, at that point it was all over europe, it was normal to be weary of the big bad Jew. If you went to England or Germany or Ireland or France or Holland or Belgium or even in certain parts of America, you'd be faced with a lot of discrimination if you were a Jew and it was just policy, it was normal, no one doubts anti semitism in Ireland, we doubt the scale of it. I'd say Ireland was one of the countries that didnt have very high levels of it for these reasons:
Small population
A very small Jewish population
The entire island was a rural backwater compared to England and Germany, two industrial powers in Europe, and countries like France, Belgium and Switzerland, cultural centers of Europe, ever modernising it. Ireland imported and exported grain and sheep and was split politically north and south, with two churches influencing both parts (although unionists will refute this).

[blueman]

So Michael McDowell stands up and exposes the Sinn Fein/IRA/Nazis and he is rewarded by getting dumped politically. It would appear that some things in Ireland clearly have not changed although to be fair to the Irish Electorate they have also sent a clear message to Gerry, Marty and the Nazis of our generation.

Sinn Fein which means 'Ourselves Alone' is indeed a party which has Nazi roots as their founding member Arthur Griffith stated in 1939 by calling Nazi successes in Europe the work of 'our victorious European allies'. To suggest that Sinn Fein/IRA are not one and the same is laughable and even the Irish Americans have cottoned on to that Irish lie, given the fact are a bit slow on the uptake. Well to be fair to them they don't know you as well as we do.

Sean Russell and Frank Ryan were caught with their Nazi loving pants down as were many, many more Fascists in Ireland. To be fair there were a few lonely Irish voices in the Dail who protested. One such courageous man was James Dillon TD who objected to the Nazi Adolf Mahr being re-instated to his job as Director of the National Museum of Ireland after the war. In a speech to the Dail on 13 Nov 1946 he urged the Irish Government not to allow this man to renew his employment. He was ridiculed and belittled by Frank Aiken Fianna Fail TD [one time IRA Commander] who defended the Nazi Adolf and castigated James Dillon for his support of the Allies. It would appear that Sinn Fein/IRA walk hand in hand with their Nazi counterparts.

Edited by Setanta
2.)No posts that encourage violence, racism, sexism or religious bigotry
Thank God to be born a Protestant.

In 1904 Limerick Priest of Rome John Creagh incited the locals against 'blood sucking' Jewish money lenders. A two year boycott of Jewish businesses insued with 150 Jews being forced to leave Limerick. Roman policy of Jew bashing was alive and well in Ireland long before the Nazis rose to power.

DeValera was a devout Roman and anti Semetic to the core. The man was an out and out bigot of the worst kind. He believed that the Nazis were a Nationalist movement like Ireland's Republicans and his beliefs caused him to open Ireland's doors to Hitlers henchmen. The American representative in Ireland, a man called David Gray, demanded that DeValera and the Irish State refuse entry to Nazi War Criminals after the war but his pleas fell on deaf ears. I suspect DeValera was obeying orders from another source, namely the Vatican.

Eoin Duffy IRA Chief of Staff became Chief Commissioner of the Garda Siochana and then went on to found the Blueshirts. In 1933 he formed Fine Gael and in 1934 proposed an invasion of Ulster. Thankfully he died in 1944 and was given a Full State Funeral. His predecessor John A Costello became leader of the Blueshirts and leader of Fine Gael and Irish Prime Minister. In the Dail he stated 'The Blackshirts have been victorious in Italy and the Brownshirts have been victorious in Germany and as assuredly the Blueshirts will be victorious in Ireland'. Lovely representation for your country.

[bluedog]

When you delve into the history of the wonderful Free State its a real eye opener.If old harmless Ireland was no different to the rest of Europe why did this long list of Nazi war criminals immediately head for Ireland after committing their horrible deeds.Helmet Clissman,Albert Lykz,Albert Follens,Otto Skorzeny,as well as those others mentioned in this thread.Its a sinister pattern were many of these people gain safety in one country.De Valera told them they would be safe.The Roman Catholic church in Europe in many cases assisted them to secretly travel to Ireland and the Irish Establishment allowed them to remain in their country to avoid detection.Thats the sad truth.The truth is Ireland helped the Nazis and so did Irelands beloved church.McAleese should get the Dublin phone book out the next time she wants to call a Nazi the likelyhood is she lives beside some.

[Blue Angel]

er, just a wee point Arthur Griffiths died in 1922 so I'd LOVE to know how he was making comments in 1939.

What was the basis of anti-semitism in the Third Reich based on in part, scapegoating, stereotyping and outright bigotry - take a hint guys you are on the same path yourself as what are you criticising.

[Jim]

Michael McDowell wasnt elected because the mans a twat and he was the leader of a party thats policies where closer to Thatcher than anything else.

Blueman I dont think you know enough about Irish politics to be making these accusions. You are very ill informed.

[Jim]

bluedog said:

When you delve into the history of the wonderful Free State its a real eye opener.If old harmless Ireland was no different to the rest of Europe why did this long list of Nazi war criminals immediately head for Ireland after committing their horrible deeds.Helmet Clissman,Albert Lykz,Albert Follens,Otto Skorzeny,as well as those others mentioned in this thread.Its a sinister pattern were many of these people gain safety in one country.De Valera told them they would be safe.The Roman Catholic church in Europe in many cases assisted them to secretly travel to Ireland and the Irish Establishment allowed them to remain in their country to avoid detection.Thats the sad truth.The truth is Ireland helped the Nazis and so did Irelands beloved church.McAleese should get the Dublin phone book out the next time she wants to call a Nazi the likelyhood is she lives beside some.

Nazi crimes wherent largely known for a while after Germany fell, thats why.

[bluedog]

jim said:

bluedog said:

When you delve into the history of the wonderful Free State its a real eye opener.If old harmless Ireland was no different to the rest of Europe why did this long list of Nazi war criminals immediately head for Ireland after committing their horrible deeds.Helmet Clissman,Albert Lykz,Albert Follens,Otto Skorzeny,as well as those others mentioned in this thread.Its a sinister pattern were many of these people gain safety in one country.De Valera told them they would be safe.The Roman Catholic church in Europe in many cases assisted them to secretly travel to Ireland and the Irish Establishment allowed them to remain in their country to avoid detection.Thats the sad truth.The truth is Ireland helped the Nazis and so did Irelands beloved church.McAleese should get the Dublin phone book out the next time she wants to call a Nazi the likelyhood is she lives beside some.

Nazi crimes wherent largely known for a while after Germany fell, thats why.

The Irish Government let them stay for years. ::)I suppose you altar boys believed all the priests told you ,if they said the Nazis were nice people then they were nice people.

[Blue Angel]

'I suppose you altar boys believed all the priests told you', tell me bluedog how exactly is that not bigotry of a raw and unpleasant order?

[Blue Angel]

I only ask because obviously I am too mentallly deficient to ascertain where the logical, rational and reasoned argument is in the statement. Please help me and enlighten me!