Willie F analyses anti-semitism in Irish history

[Blue Angel]

www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html

i didn't want to twist the thread on the second proposed love ulster march off topic but view this article on frazer's own site to see why i find him worrying. He has obviously not reasearched in any deep sense the topic he is talking about and has made factual errors (such eoin o'duffy been buried next to roger casement in 1944 which is er, interesting considering casement's remains were not returned to Ireland for many years after that!) and confused the IRA and the Irish govt. If he had even done an inkling of research he would have known exactly how much antipathy and dislike there was between the two at the time. Instead he insists on identifying the IRA as a representative of the state.

There has been intelligent and worthwhile debate on anti-semitism in Ireland and it is a subject worth exploring but this is certainly not contributing to it.

[Republic]

blueangel said:

www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html

i didn't want to twist the thread on the second proposed love ulster march off topic but view this article on frazer's own site to see why i find him worrying. He has obviously not reasearched in any deep sense the topic he is talking about and has made factual errors (such eoin o'duffy been buried next to roger casement in 1944 which is er, interesting considering casement's remains were not returned to Ireland for many years after that!) and confused the IRA and the Irish govt. If he had even done an inkling of research he would have known exactly how much antipathy and dislike there was between the two at the time. Instead he insists on identifying the IRA as a representative of the state.

There has been intelligent and worthwhile debate on anti-semitism in Ireland and it is a subject worth exploring but this is certainly not contributing to it.

oh sweet Jesus.

Two and a half lines in.
''it is fitting if we remember the allegiances between the citizens and government of what what was the Irish Free State, including their most radical front - Sinn Fein/IRA''.

Anyone who knows anything about Irish history knows that dev and the IRA were not 'friendly', to put it mildly.

Dev was, I think, very tolerant of Jews eg the constitution and I think there was evidence that he was in favour of bringing in Jewsish refugees but he was stopped by other more intolerant people than himself.

''it was clear that there would be no comeback for Nazi Germany and no united Ireland on the back of an axis victory''

The nazis would never have given a UI.
Hitler would never ever have contempleted breaking up the empire which he so admired.
There is evidence that he aimed to keep the empire intact.

''Fine Gael saw itself strongly in the mainstream of European fascism ''

Yes, except the blueshirts were not fascists.

LOL, the next line even proves this ''the Spanish fascist was not impressed by his fascist colleague ''

''In 1938 a year before the outbreak of war de Valera took control of the three treaty ports of Queenstown, Berehaven and Lough Swilly making them unavailable for British and thus allied naval operations.''


Britain handed them back of their own accord at the end of the economic war.
Who writes this stuff?

''Churchill paid a similar tribute to Northern Irelands contribution in the face of the Irish Free State's hindrance and obstruction: "Only one channel of entry remained open. That channel remained open because loyal Ulster gave us the full use of the Northern Irish ports and waters and thus ensured the free working of the Clyde and the Mersey". ''

The same loyal ulster that churchill was willing to hand over to the jew-haters???

''Not being obliged to black out they assisted German bombers in the blitz on Belfast and Liverpool.''

And being so helpful, we even let the Luftwaffe bomb Dublin as well.

This is so badly researched and is extremely selective in the facts it presents to the reader.

Frazer may be a victim but after reading this, he is definitely politically-motivated and he has a large amount of hate for Irish people.

I have no problem with him hating republicans or whoever killed his family, but he has gone further than he is entitled to.
Spreading more hate will only cause the cycle to repeat itself.

[Blue Angel]

yes and the factual inaccuracies you hit on are ones that are all ones i caught as well. It's so full of inaccuracies as to render it useless for the purpose frazer intends as any one from either community in the north with a modicum of intelligence will see holes in it. The again I'd guess Frazer is preachign to the choir with stuff like this.

[Blue Angel]

there is just a ridiculous ammount of things wrong with it. As i said intelligent consideration anti-semitism is a good thing and there has been some in the state's history and before but this article is not really proceeding from that basis. As republic say it seems to be building from a purely anti-Irish base and seeking scapegoats (ironic since that is exactly how the Jews were used throughout history) and there's some sheer bollox in there ,especially bits about submarines been refuelled in the dingle and at cork. Who the hell was refuelling these willie, was the kriegsmarine sending in teams of sailors for this work or something?

[earl]

I love the old chestnut about the refueling of U-boats in Ireland. If it's true, sure it's no wonder they lost the war!! "Herr General. Let us refuel our u-boats in Ireland, where there are no U-boat docking facilities or fuel!". Not a single account from a u-boat sailor. about getting fueled in Ireland. The pesky RA must have scilenced them some how.

[Jim]

Maybe Willie should analyse his history of anti-irishness, because he certainly doesnt have a clue about german history or irish history for that matter.

[Blue Angel]

indeed and coming back to the levels of 'proof' Willie offers, my moment of sheer disbelief came when he told us a pub been called Krugers is proof of the locals aidiing in refueling u-boats. Okay Willie, there happens to be a pub called the 'Duke of Austria' one hundred yards from my house here in the East End, does that mean all the local cockneys were actually agents of the Third Reich as it has been here for well over a hundred years. Ridiculous, no-one would have the technical know-how to deal with un-boats and as Earl points out there would have been no facilities to refuel them available anyway, remember the Irish Free State had a 'navy' (and we are stretching the term here) consisting of 6 motor torpedo boats, the armed steam yacht the Murchu (ex-Helga and famous for shelling the rebels in 1916) and couple of sail training vessels and little else. Even if they'd been inclined ot help out the Germans would have laughed at the offer I think.

[Blue Angel]

and the one verifiable occassion i can find upon which a u-boat did land people:- www.u-35.com/sources/Kerryman1999.htm

someone should forward the bit to willie about the irish coast watchers using a frequency they knew the british were listening in on . The comment about most u-boats been seen in pubs sounds more realistic somehow than any other explanation.

[Blue Angel]

and some more er, intelligent commentary on u-35 and it's visit to dingle, and as historical coincidences go the involvement of mountbatten is blackly amusing perhaps.

www.u-35.com/diamantis/

[blueman]

I think there was a Documentary on the other week called Irelands Nazis and according to them the Irish had plenty of Nazi connections but I suppose like Willie Frazer they too were making it all up. I can't understand while all these people go to all this trouble making up lies about Ireland. The Blueshirts were Fascist and if my memory serves me right Fine Gael were formed out of them so at least one of your major parties in Ireland came from Fascist/Nazi Ideology.

FAIR are also accurate in linking the IRA to the Nazis as both Sean Russell and Frank Ryan were up to their necks with their Nazi comrades not to mention the IRA in Belfast murdering two RUC men [one incidentally a Roman Catholic father of ten] during the war. I think Joe Cahill one of the founding members of the Provos was convicted for those murders and along with other members of the gang sentenced to death but suprise, suprise the Pope intervened and Cahill and three others were pardoned, a man called Williams was hung for the murders. I think he was buried in Crumlin Road Prison and the Provos asked for his body a few years ago and gave him a full Republican Burial. I can't understand why Republicans try to airbrush the truth from the history books and are unable to face reality. The Irish Republican tradition is founded on Murder, Torture, Intimidation, Ethnic Cleansing etc, etc, and you are only fooling yourselves to pretend otherwise.

[Blue Angel]

The point is blueman the IRA and the Irish govt. of the day were not the same thing and loathed each other and Willie makes the mistake many times in that article of assuming the two were hand in glove with each other. The Blueshirts were indeed an Irish fascist party (and racist and sectarian idiots to book) and the blueshirts (or national guard as they were properly called) did make up part of the founding of Fine Gael, it is one reason why political opponents taunt them as 'blueshirt's to this very day.

Tom Williams is the man you are refering to. And I am Irish republican and proud of it, I don't say everybody who has believed in it has always acted with the most honourable intent or been free of the taint of sectarianism and bigotry. But those who have and who only desired a coutnry ruled by the Irish and not external powers and a country in which we tried our best to eliminate poverty and want are those whose memory i revere.

[blueman]

blueangel said:

The point is blueman the IRA and the Irish govt. of the day were not the same thing and loathed each other and Willie makes the mistake many times in that article of assuming the two were hand in glove with each other. The Blueshirts were indeed an Irish fascist party (and racist and sectarian idiots to book) and the blueshirts (or national guard as they were properly called) did make up part of the founding of Fine Gael, it is one reason why political opponents taunt them as 'blueshirt's to this very day.

Tom Williams is the man you are refering to. And I am Irish republican and proud of it, I don't say everybody who has believed in it has always acted with the most honourable intent or been free of the taint of sectarianism and bigotry. But those who have and who only desired a coutnry ruled by the Irish and not external powers and a country in which we tried our best to eliminate poverty and want are those whose memory i revere.

Fair enough points and I would be the first to admit that Unionists are not well versed in the complexities of Irish Politics but then again we are not well versed in our own Politics or History for that matter.

I agree that nothing is black or white and in every controversy there are grey areas. We are all products of our upbringing and believe what we are told to believe and I for one have had to examine a lot of the myths and propaganda that we as Ulster Protestants have been steeped in and I must admit it has been a sharp learning curve. All we were ever taught was English History and Loyalty to the English Crown and the diverse tapestry of Ulster Culture was I believe deliberately kept from us.

Personally speaking I take nothing at face value anymore and just go and try to research the subject as best as I can and even if it flys in the face of what I have been brought up to believe so be it.

Irish Republicanism if it had been handled properly could have been for the benefit of All the people of Ireland but I am afraid it was turned into a Sectarian Murder Machine which has sullied what True Republicanism was all about. Instead of fighting democratically and politically for the ordinary people regardless of Religious persuasion it became an excuse for certain elements to Cleanse Ireland from Heretics and others who they deemed unfit to live here. In saying that I am sure there were certain fellows in it for the right reasons but it got out of control and has put Ulster Protestants right off the name Republicanism which they consider synomonous with murder and mayhem.

[Blue Angel]

i shall respond with a proper answer late blue, i just saw your post now but am on the phone to my girlfriend as she is overseas.

[Jim]

Irish republicans did fight democratically, it was ignored many times by the british government.

The Blueshirts were Fascist and if my memory serves me right Fine Gael were formed out of them so at least one of your major parties in Ireland came from Fascist/Nazi Ideology.

Some members of the british monarchy where sympathetic to fascists in europe, particularly germany, and did not favour war with them. Does that make the british monarchy fascist? No.

The founding of a party over 60 years ago does not mean it stays with the same ideals, even if I dont like fine gael either. I thought "new" labour would be proof enough for that.

[blueman]

blueangel said:

i shall respond with a proper answer late blue, i just saw your post now but am on the phone to my girlfriend as she is overseas.

Love comes first LA, plenty of time for the secondary issues later!