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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 4:07:35 GMT
Er, I pressed the wrong button when trying to quote you and pressed "modify" instead forgetting i was still an admin cuz that button isnt usually there, so thats why it says "« Last Edit: Today at 5:00am by Jim »" at the bottom of your post wasp, nothing was changed  |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 19:50:58 GMT
Er, I pressed the wrong button when trying to quote you and pressed "modify" instead forgetting i was still an admin cuz that button isnt usually there, so thats why it says "« Last Edit: Today at 5:00am by Jim »" at the bottom of your post wasp, nothing was changed No probs. Yes we have been through the Sean Russell part before and we still view it differently. Did he go to the Soviets to try to form an Irish brigade in prison camps to try and recruit Irish men who were fighting the nazis? No but he did do so in Germany. Did the Soviets train him in sabotage etc, no the nazis did and all at a time when brave Irishmen fought alongside other nations to defeat the nazis. On those who rightly attacked his mural I did not know they were also nazi activists??? This was there answer to vandalising the disgusting statue. In a statement admitting responsibility, the people behind the incident referred to the fact that Sinn Fein's MEP Mary Lou McDonald had "paid homage" to Russell in a ceremony in October last year. The statement said: "As Europe prepares to commemorate the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp 60 years ago, citizens of this state can no longer tolerate the shameful presence of a memorial to the Nazi collaborator Sean Russell in a public park in our nation's capital city. "Six million Jews, hundreds of thousands of political dissidents, homosexuals, Roma people, Soviet prisoners of war and the disabled were put to death by the Fascist hate machine that overran and terrified Europe from 1939-1945. Sean Russell, the IRA chief of staff was one of the many nationalist fanatics who looked to Adolf Hitler for political and military support in the IRA's quest to reunify Ireland at the point of the bayonets of the Gestapo. "Russell sought to overthrow the government of Eamon De Valera by fomenting terror and sabotage in the shipyards and munitions factories of Northern Ireland. "In Belfast, IRA volunteers were ordered to help the Luftwaffe bomb their own city at the cost of nearly 2,000 dead and thousands made homeless. "At the Wannsee conference, the infamous Nazi gathering that planned the 'Final Solution', the Jewish community in Ireland was marked down for annihilation. Having freed Ireland from British rule, the Nazis expected their collaborators in Sinn Fein and the IRA to help them round up Dublin's Jews and ship them off to Auschwitz. That was the price Sean Russell was prepared to pay to end partition. "Luckily for the honour and welfare of the Irish people, Russell died on a German U-Boat in August 1940 on his way home to carry out the orders of his Nazi masters. "This year Sinn Fein again openly paid homage to the traitor Russell at his statue in Fairview Park with speeches extolling his 'revolutionary' fervour and patriotism from Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald and veteran IRA terrorist Brian Keenan." I am no racist but as far as people like the women outside the old bailey demanding the release of Islamic terrorists is concerned I think these people should think again about there freedoms etc. Because in some countries such a protest would result in them being killed. But if they insist on living under such laws and with such people I believe there is plenty of room in Helmund province in Afghanistan for them. |
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blueman
Junior Member
Warnings expired
Posts: 97
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Post by blueman on Jul 22, 2007 21:48:25 GMT
The more you read about Irish Fascism the more interesting it becomes. Apparently there was another branch of them formed by the Roman Church. They called themselves the Irish Christian Front and they held massive rallies across the country. At one such rally in Cork in 1936 which was attended by 40,000 people Monsigner Patrick Sexton blamed the Spanish War on a 'gang of Murderous Jews in Moscow'.
Another Fascist was a Blueshirt called Oliver J Flanaghan who was elected as a TD in 1943 for Fine Gael and he kept his seat in the Dail until 1987. In his opening speech at the Dail he stated 'There is one thing Germany did and that was rout the Jews out of their country. Until we rout the Jews out of this country it does not make a hairs breadth what orders you make. Where there are bees there is honey and where there are Jews there is money'. Sounds like a lovely fellow Oliver but it would appear there were a lot more Fascists in Ireland than we were lead to believe.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 22:30:04 GMT
In relation to your post blueman the first line of his maiden speech was "How is it that we do not see any of these Emergency Orders directed against the Jews who crucified Our Saviour 1,900 years ago and who are crucifying us every day of the week?"
The following year he doubled his votes and in each election untill 1982 he topped the poll.
In relation to the blueshirts the Blueshirts saw themselves as part of the European Fascist movement, as a leading Cumann na nGaedheal member John A. Costello, who was later leader of Fine Gael and Prime Minister of the Irish Republic said in the Dail:
"The Blackshirts have been victorious in Italy and Hitler's Brownshirts have been victorious in Germany, as assuredly the Blueshirts will be victorious in Ireland."
In 1904, in Limerick, Father John Creagh, a priest of the Redemptorist order, incited the local population against "blood-sucking" Jewish money-lenders and travelling pedlars. His sermons brought about a two-year trade boycott of Jewish businesses, which was accompanied by intimidation, abuse, harassment and beatings (although there were no fatalities) and resulted in the almost total departure of the 150-strong Limerick Jewish community.
The issue of the Limerick "pogrom" resurfaced three times in more recent years, when various individuals sought to justify it. In 1965 there was correspondence following a television programme on the incident by Radio Telefis Éirean (RTE), the national broadcasting agency. In 1970, there was a further controversy when the then lord mayor of Limerick, Stephen Coughlan, declared his support for Father Creagh's "defending the impoverished Limerick population against the exploitative Jews". The issue flared up again in 1984, with the Jews being defended mainly by left-wing politicians. Only in 1990 did Limerick seek to make amends to its Jews by restoring the city's Jewish cemetery.
There is no wartime evidence that Prime Minister Eamon de Valera uttered any condemnation of German atrocities. In 1939, de Valera, in a recorded discussion with Eduard Hempel, a German minister in Eire, agreed that Nazi procedures against the Jews "must primarily be explained by the behaviour of the Jews after the First World War".
Historian Dermot Keogh pointed out that the "high number of visa refusals by the department of justice had tragic consequences. The Irish must live with that guilt." In 1991 a claim by writer and former Labour cabinet minister Conor Cruise O'Brien that Ireland's 4,000 Jews would have been handed over to the Nazis had Germany won the war was the subject of much controversy.
In the 1981 general election to the Dáil (Irish Parliament), three members of the Jewish community were elected. The three largest Irish cities, Dublin, Belfast and Cork, have had Jewish lord mayors in this century.
When Ireland held its first Holocaust Memorial Day on 26 January 2003 in Dublin City Hall, Justice Minister Michael McDowell apologized for a policy that was inspired by “a culture of muted antisemitism in Ireland,” which discouraged immigration by Europe’s shattered Jews. He said that “at an official level the Irish state was at best coldly polite and behind closed doors antipathetic, hostile and unfeeling toward the Jews.”
Some Irish Jews acknowledge that the rise of Irish republicanism in the late 1960s, sparking 30 years of ‘troubles’ in Northern Ireland where the IRA (Irish Republican Army) fought to end British rule, had the side-effect of fuelling anti-Jewish feeling.
Francis Stuart (1902–99), an Irish writer and member of Aosdana (an affiliation of creative artists in Ireland), who wrote in one of his books: “The Jew is the worm that got into the rose and sickened it,” received a Saoi (Gaelic for ‘wise one’) award in 1996 (the highest honor the state can give an artist). He was also known for his antisemitic radio broadcasts made during World War II.
Good relations exist between the local police and representatives of the Jewish community and meetings are held between the Garda Racial & Intercultural Office and Jewish communal leaders
Groups that struggle against fascism and racism in Ireland include the Anti-Fascist Action – Ireland, the Anti Nazi League, the Anti-Nazi Activist and the left-wing Residents against Racism.
The Wiesenthal Center has condemned Ireland for not including a specific reference to antisemitism in a new UN resolution on religious intolerance it submitted in October 2003 to the UN General Assembly Third Committee.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 23:16:18 GMT
There is no clear evidence that he tried to raise an Irish Brigade. Firstly, its only thought he attempted it, secondly, it was to fight against the British, not to fight for the nazis exclusively. You dont realise that though. Your nitpicking history. The Soviets were allied with Germany for a longer time than they fought them.
Those same brave Irishmen that attempted to join said Irish Brigade, yes? Like I said, many didnt give a shit about Britain or about Germany, it was about Ireland. Its not black and white like you think. "Oh they where going to join the nazis so they must be bad", in my opinion fighting for an imperial army is just as bad, especially when at the time the holocaust wasnt widely known outside of tight leadership circles.
Both Anti-fascists and right wing nazi skinheads have attacked the statue. The very existance of this situation should spell clear as day that Sean Russell was not in it to help the Nazis as you would believe. One group attacks the statue because he was a republican and secretly critical of the nazis, and another group attacks it because he went to them for help.
I dont see that as a bad thing, no part of Ireland should have been part of the war and the devalera government was doing no one any good but the church.
How did they help? Perhaps if Belfast wasnt building ships for the british navy it wouldnt have been touched.
Sean russell was dead 2 years before the Wannsee conference took place[/color]
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 23:21:41 GMT
The more you read about Irish Fascism the more interesting it becomes. Apparently there was another branch of them formed by the Roman Church. They called themselves the Irish Christian Front and they held massive rallies across the country. At one such rally in Cork in 1936 which was attended by 40,000 people Monsigner Patrick Sexton blamed the Spanish War on a 'gang of Murderous Jews in Moscow'. Ahuh, and Irish fought both for and against Franco in the spanish civil war, your point is what? I dont care what you label the catholic church, the catholic church is a joke that supported Mussolini because he was prepared let them off the hook with a lot of things. Fascism thoughout Europe was huge, if you think 40,000 Irish fascists is a lot you should look at the amount of groups and parties that existed in Britain, and in America, and the Governments that got started from Fascism in Europe in the early-mid 20th century. If anything Ireland was relitively untouched by Fascism compared to the rest of the european countries. Flanaghan was an arse. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 23:31:14 GMT
They stated their COLLABORATORS so I think they were showing that Russel was of the same group regardless of when he died. Why shouldn't Belfast have built ships for the British navy? Belfast is on British soil and many many people gave there lives and done everything possible for the war effort. This is something to be proud of not ashamed of. These ships were built to help defeat the nazis or would you prefer them not to be built and just let the nazis get on with what they were doing?
Maybe there were those Irish who didn't give a shit about Britain or Germany but I find it hard to believe it was mainly about Ireland only as you claim. Wasn't Ireland neutral? Didn't republicans turn to the nazis for help at a time of a world war? So for me many of those brave Irishmen fought for Britain to defeat the nazis and they faced untold horrors that we can only imagine to help the rest of the allies who bravely fought the nazis. These people were true heroes regardless of what country they came from, and many did so to defeat the facist nazis instead of collaborating with them like some.
People from various countries gave there lives to help another country/countries and this doesn't exclude those brave Irishmen as you suggest. They also gave there lives helping other countries, helping the people of those countries and to defeat the nazis. Or should we put down there bravery for only caring about Ireland and nothing else as you suggest? This is a very big insult to those who gave all in defeating Hitler.
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 23:50:27 GMT
Russell wouldnt have known death camps existed (concentration camps are another matter, but Britain had those too, and America has them to this day!). Not even German people knew about the death camps, they were rumours that turned out to be true.
I dont give a fuck about Belfast being on "British soil", it shouldnt have been part of the war in my opinion, it shouldnt have been making itself a target so other English cities like Liverpool would get hit less. Do you honestly think Chuchill gave a fuck about Belfast when he knew it would mean a lesser load for his english cities? What was more important to him?
Britain was more concerned about fulfilling its treaty with Belgium than about Irishmen and women being bombed by the Luftwaffe.
Ireland was and wasnt neutral, it gave help to the allies by use of ports and whatever else, contrary to uninformed unionist opinion.
Its not an insult. Some of my family members fought in the British army during the war, do you seriously think they done it out of some sense of duty? My hole mate, they joined the British army because they where homeless!! They didnt have a choice. They'd have stayed at home and not have Belfast be part of the war if it was up to them.
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Post by Wasp on Jul 23, 2007 8:58:34 GMT
Why didn't they stay at home then? Belfast is no different than any other British city and it proudly played its part in helping the fight against the nazis. Now if you think those that gave all shouldn't have bothered then that is up to you, but because of these people we live in the world we live in today and not a very different one started under Hitler. Basically you are saying leave all the dirty work to others. But people here and in the south viewed it differently they volunteered to do something they didn't have to do. Money maybe was a motive for some but not all and the amount that gave their lives both north and south speaks volumes and dismisses your claims.
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Post by Jim on Jul 23, 2007 18:27:02 GMT
Why didn't they stay at home then? Belfast is no different than any other British city and it proudly played its part in helping the fight against the nazis. Now if you think those that gave all shouldn't have bothered then that is up to you, but because of these people we live in the world we live in today and not a very different one started under Hitler. Basically you are saying leave all the dirty work to others. But people here and in the south viewed it differently they volunteered to do something they didn't have to do. Money maybe was a motive for some but not all and the amount that gave their lives both north and south speaks volumes and dismisses your claims. Because they didn't have a home... Belfast is different, its on a different island in the first place and it was used as a decoy so as liverpool and london wouldnt be hit as hard. Proud british city alright. I am saying leave the dirty work to others, No part of Ireland regardless of jurisdiction should have had part in the war geographically. People can sign up to the british army if they want, but ships should not have been built in Belfast so it could be bombed to bits! Your right that not all done it for the salary, but many did, so it doesnt dismiss my claim really, it still happened. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 23, 2007 18:28:47 GMT
Good points Setanta but they're going to fall on deaf ears.
I think its safe to say the irish government prosecuted and executed more IRA men than people realise, or want to realise.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 24, 2007 12:06:41 GMT
You know one point that strikes me here is that we seem to be dealing in a very simplistic view of history in which the good 'white hats' (Britain and the other allies) fought the evil 'black hats' (the Axis powers) and thus order and decency was restored for all. Now under no circumstances could anyone pretend that the British Empire for all it's faults was not infinitely preferable to Hitler and his lebensraum philosophy but to pretend WW2 commenced over the fate of the Jews would be ludicrous. It was not a guiding light in British statesmen's mind, politicians horse trade and matters of international or national morality rarely influence them beyond a certain point. Had Hitler stopped short of invading Poland and just contented himself with the Anschluss and a bit of territorial land grabbing in the nearby countries it is quite probable WW2 would have never commenced. There are many massacres equal in scope to the Holocaust in 20th century Europe yet Britain did not feel compelled to invade the powers commiting them and we rarely hear about them. I do not recall it invading the Ottoman empire due to moral outrage at the Armenian massacres and then there is 'plucky little Belgium' whose monarchy (and note this is all still swept under the carpet in Belgium even to this day) was responsible for genocidal events which probably killed more than the Nazis although over a greater period of time.
Individuals may be moved by moral concerns or groups of people, govts. rarely are and Britain was merely fighting for survival, that it did so alone deserves admiration but I see no reason why the Irish state should have joined in. There seems to be some belief that they 'betrayed' Britain by not doing so. Complete rubbish, it is as though we were expected to join in automatically.
The British govts. own record with regards to Jewish (and other) survivors is one we could touch on as well. What happened to the survivors in many cases? Locked up in work and internment camps on Cyprus where the death rate was remarkably high, although that of course was due in many cases to illnesses contracted in the Nazi death camps.
Also, this remarkable nonsense about the modern Irish state licking the Pope's arse is coming from a fantasy universe it must be said. Most people of the last generation or two are at best lip-service Catholics and are inclined to pretty much ignore the Vatican if it conflicts with their own point of view. We are not in 1912 and Home Rule does not equal Rome Rule, that point had some minor validity then, it has none now.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 24, 2007 12:17:46 GMT
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Post by Republic on Jul 24, 2007 12:23:18 GMT
Had Hitler stopped short of invading Poland and just contented himself with the Anschluss and a bit of territorial land grabbing in the nearby countries it is quite probable WW2 would have never commenced. and Hitler may have been recognised as one of the greatest German statesmen of all time, given his achievements up to that point. |
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 24, 2007 12:30:32 GMT
Yes indeed, let's not forget Churchill was full of praise for him only a year before World War 2 as were many other British political figures. Although some of the more far-sighted saw the rotten nature of the state he was errecting as well.
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