blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 18, 2007 18:29:37 GMT
I think there was a Documentary on the other week called Irelands Nazis and according to them the Irish had plenty of Nazi connections. The Irish? As in the State or the People. Who are you specifically refering to? Well he does misrepresent the facts a fair bit Part of a silly propaganda war isn't it? Half of that party did alright The went to ask for weapons yes, the USSR was also asked does that also make the Communists? Ryan fought against Facism in Spain and Russell spoke against facism here in Ireland. In hindsight your correct to say that they shouldn't have contacted Nazi Germany. But no one knew exactly how evil Nazi Germany was at that time and neither Russell or Ryan were Nazis, they were following the age old adage of "Englands distraction is Irelands oppertunity". But what "does up to their necks with their Nazi Comrades" mean? Is it something like this? news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2074100.stm Shot at 2007-07-18 What has this got to do with Nazi Germany? I can't understand why Republicans try to airbrush the truth from the history books and are unable to face reality. The Irish Republican tradition is founded on Murder, Torture, Intimidation, Ethnic Cleansing etc, etc, and you are only fooling yourselves to pretend otherwise. mmmmmmmmm I disagree and I could say look closer to home to see who started all of the above but that's too simplistic.
2.)No posts that encourage violence, racism, sexism or religious bigotry
I have given you chance after chance to back what you're saying and you haven't. As far as I can remember it was an Irishman called Cathal O'Shannon who made the programme called Ireland's Nazis. He like many thousands of Irishmen and Irishwomen fought for the Allies during the war but was scathing in his attacks on both the Irish State [DeValera in particular] and the attitude of a lot of the Irish people. He said that when he was on leave during the war he couldn't wear his RAF uniform home and that a percentage of the Irish people were hostile to the Allied war effort. Anti Semitism was rife in Ireland during the 1930's and the feeling was that Ireland was a Roman Catholic country where Jews would not fit in. He also stated that after the war that Allied war veterans were not welcomed but that Nazi collaboraters were took in and protected by the Irish state. The IRA colluded with the Nazis during the war and their hatred for anything British was perhaps the motivating factor but I strongly suspect their was more to their collusion than that. The Ideology of Irish Nationalism and Nationalist Socialism is very alike and basically anyone who does not agree with them or their politics has no right to exist. Ethnic Cleansing, murder, intimidation etc, etc is the order of the day as they try to co-erce dissenters into their ways. I can't work out the true motivation though, is it just political or is religion the real motivating factor. |
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Post by Original Admin on Jul 19, 2007 9:28:02 GMT
It's me Setanta BTW! [Well I suppose both the Irish State and the Irish people as they are both linked to helping the Nazi War Machine. Please site your source for this. Any German who landed here was interened for the duration. Any allied soldier/airman/sailor got mightly drunk and brought to the border. Weather forcast was given to the allies and the Donegal corridor was opened for allied use. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutralitySo how were we helping the Nazis? [ and are both Anti Jewish to say the least. The Briscoes may have something to say about that. Jewish IRA Men who went on to be FF Mayors and Politicions. But yes you are correct in saying there was anti-semitism in Ireland, just as there was in the rest of Europe. This isn't a stick to beat Ireland with unless you are also into self-flagilation. Remember Mosleys marches into North London. No such marches happened here. the "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church was a constitutionally meaningless phrase. In some areas (De Valera's refusal to make Catholicism the established church, his refusal to side with Franco in the Spanish Civil War, the constitutional recognition given to the existence of the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterians, the Methodists and in particular in Irish Jewish community) de Valera's constitution was actually quite radical and distinctly non-Catholic in its day. For that reason, Pope Pius XI refused to support its adoption, an endorsement constitutions in predominantly Catholic countries routinely sought and often got. [ As far as I can remember it was an Irishman called Cathal O'Shannon who made the programme called Ireland's Nazis. He like many thousands of Irishmen and Irishwomen fought for the Allies during the war but was scathing in his attacks on both the Irish State [DeValera in particular] and the attitude of a lot of the Irish people.. What was the attitude? [ He said that when he was on leave during the war he couldn't wear his RAF uniform home and that a percentage of the Irish people were hostile to the Allied war effort.. You mean 20 years after our occupation had ended after War and the Northern part of Ireland still under occupation by a undemocratic government? What do you expect! [ Anti Semitism was rife in Ireland during the 1930's and the feeling was that Ireland was a Roman Catholic country where Jews would not fit in. . Same as the rest of Europe if you remember your history correctly. That is why the Jewish people headed for Palistine. Many being interned in new concentration camps by Britian in Cyprus www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html [ He also stated that after the war that Allied war veterans were not welcomed but that Nazi collaboraters were took in and protected by the Irish state.. Lets look at this. Yes some Nazis came here and the state turned a blind eye to them. But these Nazis were only a tiny precentage of the number of Nazis that went to other countries. Britian for example took in many many more Nazis than Ireland. Again this isn't a stick to beat Ireland with. It was a bad time and it's a blot on our hostory but it's a blot we share with almost every other European country. Maybe you should read this www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Delayed-Britain-Became-Criminals/dp/184212126XThe IRA colluded with the Nazis during the war and their hatred for anything British was perhaps the motivating factor. The IRA went and tried to secure arms. No one knew how evil the Nazis were then. In hindsight it should never have been contemplated but in hindsight they should never have asked the USSR for weapons either. Trying to Unite Ireland was their motivation. But the IRA was in complete disarray at the time and De Valera stood on them to make sure they weren't able to do anything. [ but I strongly suspect their was more to their collusion than that.. Based on what? [ The Ideology of Irish Nationalism and Nationalist Socialism is very alike. How so? [ and basically anyone who does not agree with them or their politics has no right to exist. . Really?Have you read Irelands Constitution? [ Ethnic Cleansing, murder, intimidation etc, etc is the order of the day as they try to co-erce dissenters into their ways.. By all Irish Nationalists? All the time? You keep making accusations but provide nothing to back your argument. [ I can't work out the true motivation though, is it just political or is religion the real motivating factor. Why would religion be the factor when Irish Republicanism was envisaged by Proestants first? blueman you said you look into things and make your own mind up. From what I've read here you have been very selective in what you chose to remember and ignore the facts you disagree with. At lot of what you write is based on your "gut" with nothing else apart for your limited and selective knowlage of events to back it which is devoid of facts. Have a read of the links I provided and come back and see can you really say that the Irish People and State supported Nazi Germany. Come back and tell me what this support you spoke about was. Or come back and admit that you were not accurate with your assement of the Irish People and State because you didn't have the facts. |
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Post by Republic on Jul 19, 2007 20:51:02 GMT
Blueman
I disagree here. The link with fascism was shaky and artificial IMO.
The majority of members were not fascist but they did incorporate fascist trappings into their activities.
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Agree 100%.
BM I have been impressed with much of your posting but this statement really is ridiculous and unjustified.
As for the Irish attitude to the british army in the 1930s, can you not see how they would have had such an attituide?
Think of your own experiences and how you approach republicanism. Irish people would have felt similar feelings after experiencing the brutality of the Tans and the Auxies.
Such an attitude does not prevail now and that is evidence that we are not anti-british. Think of the context of the period.
Welcome to the site though.
Hope you stick around.
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Post by Blue Angel on Jul 19, 2007 23:51:35 GMT
BM, we had this discussion elsewhere and I conceded to you i felt that there were elements of anti-semitisim within Irish society, but that the same applied (and with possibly more force) to Britain itself. It is too simplistic however to say that as a whole both were totally anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is a poison that has been transmitted down over 20 centuries unfortunately and no country in Europe would look shameless if examined closely. Now I have something to say, I take this one very personally - my girlfriend has Jewish roots to part of her family tree. I know I should not use individual examples to back an argument but I am actually a bit cross as the area I live in here in London has many thousands of Jewish people and I have unfailingly found them decent people and the only time we get trouble is when we get the usual suspects in either the Jewish or Muslim community here mouthing off about the manifest destiny of each respective group to control this that or the other or their inherent perfection. Most people regard these people as fanatics divorced from the ambiguites that make up reality.
I mentioned Robert Briscoe who Setanta has mentioned to you elsewhere, ok he is only an individual example and again that makes citing him of limited value. But it might amuse some to learn he was also one of the chief arms suppliers to the Haganah when Israel was born and is highly regarded in Israel. Oh yeah he was also a close friend of that notorious anti-semite Dev. Reality is just not so simplistic and black and white and when we try and engage in such reductionism all of us are getting close the sort of nonsense the old Nationals Socialists engaged in, E.g. such thoughts as 'all the Brits are bad, **** them, ' 'those Orangemen are all idiots!', 'Catholics are all soap dodgers'. We need to face up to the fac that there was anti-semitism in Ireland historically (but if anyone thinks the carryings on in Limerick in the early 20th century were bad I invite you to look at what was happening in Russia at the time - not that that excuses the idiocy in Limerick).
As to taking weapons, this is where people miss the point, you don't have to agree with the ideology of whom you are taking them from to take them. The Taliba took weapons of the USA - do you think they have a lot in common ideologically?
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blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 20, 2007 19:01:11 GMT
It's me Setanta BTW! [Well I suppose both the Irish State and the Irish people as they are both linked to helping the Nazi War Machine. Please site your source for this. Any German who landed here was interened for the duration. Any allied soldier/airman/sailor got mightly drunk and brought to the border. Weather forcast was given to the allies and the Donegal corridor was opened for allied use. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutralitySo how were we helping the Nazis? The Briscoes may have something to say about that. Jewish IRA Men who went on to be FF Mayors and Politicions. But yes you are correct in saying there was anti-semitism in Ireland, just as there was in the rest of Europe. This isn't a stick to beat Ireland with unless you are also into self-flagilation. Remember Mosleys marches into North London. No such marches happened here. the "special position" of the Roman Catholic Church was a constitutionally meaningless phrase. In some areas (De Valera's refusal to make Catholicism the established church, his refusal to side with Franco in the Spanish Civil War, the constitutional recognition given to the existence of the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterians, the Methodists and in particular in Irish Jewish community) de Valera's constitution was actually quite radical and distinctly non-Catholic in its day. For that reason, Pope Pius XI refused to support its adoption, an endorsement constitutions in predominantly Catholic countries routinely sought and often got. What was the attitude? You mean 20 years after our occupation had ended after War and the Northern part of Ireland still under occupation by a undemocratic government? What do you expect! Same as the rest of Europe if you remember your history correctly. That is why the Jewish people headed for Palistine. Many being interned in new concentration camps by Britian in Cyprus www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/mandate.html Lets look at this. Yes some Nazis came here and the state turned a blind eye to them. But these Nazis were only a tiny precentage of the number of Nazis that went to other countries. Britian for example took in many many more Nazis than Ireland. Again this isn't a stick to beat Ireland with. It was a bad time and it's a blot on our hostory but it's a blot we share with almost every other European country. Maybe you should read this www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Delayed-Britain-Became-Criminals/dp/184212126X The IRA went and tried to secure arms. No one knew how evil the Nazis were then. In hindsight it should never have been contemplated but in hindsight they should never have asked the USSR for weapons either. Trying to Unite Ireland was their motivation. But the IRA was in complete disarray at the time and De Valera stood on them to make sure they weren't able to do anything. Based on what? How so? Really?Have you read Irelands Constitution? By all Irish Nationalists? All the time? You keep making accusations but provide nothing to back your argument. [ I can't work out the true motivation though, is it just political or is religion the real motivating factor. Why would religion be the factor when Irish Republicanism was envisaged by Proestants first? blueman you said you look into things and make your own mind up. From what I've read here you have been very selective in what you chose to remember and ignore the facts you disagree with. At lot of what you write is based on your "gut" with nothing else apart for your limited and selective knowlage of events to back it which is devoid of facts. Have a read of the links I provided and come back and see can you really say that the Irish People and State supported Nazi Germany. Come back and tell me what this support you spoke about was. Or come back and admit that you were not accurate with your assement of the Irish People and State because you didn't have the facts. I am not trying to beat the Irish people down and I am well aware that Britiain's history regarding Nazis is hardly something to boast about. The state of Israel fought the British for Independance through a vicious terrorist campaign and I am well aware that the Israeli's to this day do not forget or forgive the British for what they done to them during that conflict. The hatred for Israel by the British media is there for all to see. I suppose the Irish and British can at least agree on something in their support for the Palestinian cause. The IRA had secret meetings with the Nazis and helped their Nazi friends by attacking Britain during the Second World War. They set off bombs in England and murdered seven people in Coventry. Sean Russell died on a German U-boat and his statue is in Dublin to this day [minus its head, apparently cut off by members of the Anti-Fascist League] so there is obviously more than me convinced of the Nazis ideology which exists in Ireland. You are right regarding the Briscoes who helped form Fianna Fail but interesting enough the documentary Ireland's Nazis interviewed Joe Briscoe whose father was the spokesman for the Jewish community in Ireland during the war. He said that DeValera had refused to take in any Jewish children who were refugees fleeing Nazi europe. According to him his father was good friends with Peter Berry an Irish diplomat. They visited each other regularly and the Briscoe's looked upon him as a good family friend. Joe Briscoe's father asked him continually to use his influence to help the Jewish kids and Berry assured him that he was doing all he could to help. After his father's death Joe was shown papers from the Irish government which proved that Berry was doing all that he could to stop the Jewish kids from getting asylum in Ireland and that he was Anti Semetic to the core. Another senior civil servant who detested the Jews was Charles Bewley who used his power and influence to help the Nazis. The argument that the IRA didn't really know how bad the Nazis were at the time is unbelievable as the atrocities they were committing all across Europe was well reported and documented. After the war the Irish State gave sanctuary to some of the most notorious War Criminals on record. One such monster was Andryc Artikovic the mastermind behind the butcher of 1,000,000 people in Croatia. This Nazi butcher who worked hand in glove with the Roman Catholic church in some of the most sadistic murders since the Inquisition was smuggled out of Croatia by Franciscan friars to Ireland after the fall of the Third Reich where he received the full protection of the Irish State. According to Cathal O'Shannon the Irish authorities considered the Nuremburg trials and execution of Nazis to be murder so they granted notorious War Criminals the right to live on Irish soil. There is no way I would suggest that all Irish Nationalist's were Nazis and I am all too aware that countless thousands came and fought against the tyranny of the Nazis. I feel that those brave Irishmen and women were shamefully treated by both the British and Irish governments and that it is only recently they have received any recognition for their undoubted courage and valour. Irish Republicanism may have been started by Protestants who were fed up living under the despotic heel of the aristocracy but it has been hi-jacked by those who have their own agenda and their naked sectarianism is there for all to see. To model the tricolour on the flag of the French Republic is a joke as at least the French fought against both the Church and the Aristocracy but the Irish version fought for the Church to cleanse Ireland from what they considered Heretics be they Jew or be they Protestant. |
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blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 20, 2007 19:21:07 GMT
Blueman I disagree here. The link with fascism was shaky and artificial IMO. The majority of members were not fascist but they did incorporate fascist trappings into their activities. . Agree 100%. BM I have been impressed with much of your posting but this statement really is ridiculous and unjustified. As for the Irish attitude to the british army in the 1930s, can you not see how they would have had such an attituide? Think of your own experiences and how you approach republicanism. Irish people would have felt similar feelings after experiencing the brutality of the Tans and the Auxies. Such an attitude does not prevail now and that is evidence that we are not anti-british. Think of the context of the period. Welcome to the site though. Hope you stick around. Thank you Republic for your welcome and I will try to stick around. I will try and research the connection between Fine Gael and the Blueshirts a bit more. I know there is a new book out about the movement and I will try to get my hands on it to see if it sheds more light on the subject. I apologise if my post linked all the Irish people to the Nazis as that is totally wrong. Countless thousands of Irishmen and women came to Britain to fight against the Fascists and I feel that they have been ignored by my own people as well as yours. The Unionist leaders would not have liked that fact to have become common knowledge any more than the Nationalists. I suppose they are the forgotten men and women of Ireland because they do not fit into our political ideologies. Your point about putting ourselves into the mindset of a previous generation is a very good one and one which I do take on board as it definately sheds new light on the thinking and mindset of the people back then. |
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blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 20, 2007 19:46:37 GMT
BM, we had this discussion elsewhere and I conceded to you i felt that there were elements of anti-semitisim within Irish society, but that the same applied (and with possibly more force) to Britain itself. It is too simplistic however to say that as a whole both were totally anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is a poison that has been transmitted down over 20 centuries unfortunately and no country in Europe would look shameless if examined closely. Now I have something to say, I take this one very personally - my girlfriend has Jewish roots to part of her family tree. I know I should not use individual examples to back an argument but I am actually a bit cross as the area I live in here in London has many thousands of Jewish people and I have unfailingly found them decent people and the only time we get trouble is when we get the usual suspects in either the Jewish or Muslim community here mouthing off about the manifest destiny of each respective group to control this that or the other or their inherent perfection. Most people regard these people as fanatics divorced from the ambiguites that make up reality. I mentioned Robert Briscoe who Setanta has mentioned to you elsewhere, ok he is only an individual example and again that makes citing him of limited value. But it might amuse some to learn he was also one of the chief arms suppliers to the Haganah when Israel was born and is highly regarded in Israel. Oh yeah he was also a close friend of that notorious anti-semite Dev. Reality is just not so simplistic and black and white and when we try and engage in such reductionism all of us are getting close the sort of nonsense the old Nationals Socialists engaged in, E.g. such thoughts as 'all the Brits are bad, **** them, ' 'those Orangemen are all idiots!', 'Catholics are all soap dodgers'. We need to face up to the fac that there was anti-semitism in Ireland historically (but if anyone thinks the carryings on in Limerick in the early 20th century were bad I invite you to look at what was happening in Russia at the time - not that that excuses the idiocy in Limerick). As to taking weapons, this is where people miss the point, you don't have to agree with the ideology of whom you are taking them from to take them. The Taliba took weapons of the USA - do you think they have a lot in common ideologically? BA, good, honest post and a very fair and balanced approach about all conflicts everywhere. There are no absolute rights and wrongs and there are plenty of grey areas. We are all Anti something, as a matter of fact as a Dissenter I am almost Anti everything but at the same time we have to walk upon this earth together for the time we are alloted so as far as is possible we should try and make it as easy for each other as we can. To suggest that we have everything right is arrogant and wrong and the Republic made a good point about putting yourself in somebody's mindset in the generation in which they lived. We would do well to put ourselves in each others mindset and try to see things through another mans eyes. From a Dissenters perspective what does an Irish Catholic see in me or in the people of Ulster. Most certainly not what I see and I know we must change as the way we potray ourselves is at times obnoxious and hurtful to say the least. We are continually learning but I think this present generation must come to terms with the feelings and beliefs of others and learn to be more tolerant of those who differ with us. The Nazi persecution of the Jews is a horrific and recent example of what can happen when one nation thinks they are superior to another and the unthinkable begins to take place in the vicious murders of the underdogs. |
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Post by Jim on Jul 21, 2007 16:55:12 GMT
Like what? By the time Russell was dead Sachsenhausen just outside of Berlin was only open 4 years and most germans didnt know about it, nevermind someone from the other side of Europe. Germanys aggression to the Jews was an extreme version of European aggression to the Jews, almost every country in Europe, especially Britain, has a black mark on its history (britain has many more to add to that), when it comes to the Jews Britain treated them far worse than the Irish did, if you want to compare dick sizes here (for lack of a better term).
If you want we can go further, what country out of the two has a growing legal fascist party standing in elections and doing better than most small parties, what party could easily control city and county councils in a few years? The BNP are basically following a British version of nazi ideals and a lot of people are buying into it yet you have the cheek to call Irish nationalists and republicans nazis. It wasnt too long ago loyalists whinged about being labelled nazis.
No commen sense here.
I dont believe, personally, that British people are nazis, I live there and I know that a lot of people are appauled at the BNP but if I was to use your line of thinking I'd be easily lining up the words "britain" and "fascist". See my point?
What neither Ireland OR Britain did during the war was abnormal. Its only abnormal looking back 70 years when attitudes to Jewish relations have changed dramatically over the years and its unthinkable to agree with general Europes attitudes to them. I think you need to do a bit more reading my friend because a lot of what you have said in these posts are extremely biased and you've nitpicked history to suit your point while forgetting everything else and if it was a bigger forum with more people your arguement would be considered a joke because of that.
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blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 21, 2007 19:14:21 GMT
Like what? By the time Russell was dead Sachsenhausen just outside of Berlin was only open 4 years and most germans didnt know about it, nevermind someone from the other side of Europe. Germanys aggression to the Jews was an extreme version of European aggression to the Jews, almost every country in Europe, especially Britain, has a black mark on its history (britain has many more to add to that), when it comes to the Jews Britain treated them far worse than the Irish did, if you want to compare dick sizes here (for lack of a better term). If you want we can go further, what country out of the two has a growing legal fascist party standing in elections and doing better than most small parties, what party could easily control city and county councils in a few years? The BNP are basically following a British version of nazi ideals and a lot of people are buying into it yet you have the cheek to call Irish nationalists and republicans nazis. It wasnt too long ago loyalists whinged about being labelled nazis. No commen sense here. I dont believe, personally, that British people are nazis, I live there and I know that a lot of people are appauled at the BNP but if I was to use your line of thinking I'd be easily lining up the words "britain" and "fascist". See my point? What neither Ireland OR Britain did during the war was abnormal. Its only abnormal looking back 70 years when attitudes to Jewish relations have changed dramatically over the years and its unthinkable to agree with general Europes attitudes to them. I think you need to do a bit more reading my friend because a lot of what you have said in these posts are extremely biased and you've nitpicked history to suit your point while forgetting everything else and if it was a bigger forum with more people your arguement would be considered a joke because of that. Well the thread is about Willie Frazer linking the Nazis with Irish Repulicanism which I believe is historically accurate and can be backed up with facts which obviously is hard for some Republicans to accept. Whether Fascism exists in the United Kingdom is for another thread but the Irish links with the Nazis are there for all to see and is most definately a topic for debate. Loyalists have been labelled as Nazis and I for one can understand why as only last year braindead morons at a Rangers match were giving Nazi salutes at Jewish supporters during a European match. Their actions were deplorable and they should have been booted out and never allowed near Ibrox again. The BNP are in my opinion dangerous to say the least and any right thinking Briton would do well to steer well clear of them. I agree that I do need to do more reading but the more that comes out about Ireland's Nazis the more I can understand the reluctance of the Ulster Nation to be co-erced into an Irish Republic against their will. Sinn Fein/IRA with their bigotry, intolerance and Nationalist Socialist principles are indeed a carbon copy of Hitler and his henchmen. At least the present day Irish people see something about Sinn Fein/IRA which they don't like and have cottoned on to their Fascist principles and have shown them the door at the last election. That in itself gives me some hope for the future. |
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Post by bluedog on Jul 21, 2007 19:45:08 GMT
The unfortunate links Ireland had to the Nazis is just another sorry tale in this islands history.To begin with to chose Ireland as a safe haven for a number of war criminals suggests some sort of protection from ultimate prosecution was available in that country.The scary thing is that it was Roman Catholic Friars that smuggled in Artikovic.Nobody seriously could argue these people were not aware of any of the one million deaths he was responsible for,or they were not aware of the activities of his men.Then were the Dublin authorities completely unaware he was living in their midst?I think not.Irelands historical link with Romanism is a conduit to Nazism one which President McAleese overlooked.  |
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Post by Jim on Jul 21, 2007 20:31:37 GMT
How is it historically accurate though? Its not even remotely accurate and its based on legend, not fact. I dont accept what you say blueman, because your distorting history to accept your own views. Neither of us are impartial and I'm not expecting that but the difference between you and me is how we see history.
Whether fascism in the UK exists is not for another thread, its for this thread because as you know both islands are closely linked and have been even since the days of partition.
Ireland had as much Nazis as Britain did, it has less than Britain does today, so why arent you calling Britain a nazi sympathiser when its own monarchy wasnt wanting war with Germany. Britain may have fought them in ww2 but so did the irish and evidence heavily suggests ireland was supportive of britain and america during the war, not against them.
Go to SF's website and point out their "nationalist socialist" policies to me, please. I'm asking you to do that, because I cant find any, they are anything but nationalist-socialist.
Then no doubt, as Ireland's old centuries long occupier, Britain has a historical link with Romanism aswell, and thus is a conduit to nazism, yes?
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blueman
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Post by blueman on Jul 21, 2007 23:35:24 GMT
How is it historically accurate though? Its not even remotely accurate and its based on legend, not fact. I dont accept what you say blueman, because your distorting history to accept your own views. Neither of us are impartial and I'm not expecting that but the difference between you and me is how we see history. Whether fascism in the UK exists is not for another thread, its for this thread because as you know both islands are closely linked and have been even since the days of partition. Ireland had as much Nazis as Britain did, it has less than Britain does today, so why arent you calling Britain a nazi sympathiser when its own monarchy wasnt wanting war with Germany. Britain may have fought them in ww2 but so did the irish and evidence heavily suggests ireland was supportive of britain and america during the war, not against them. Go to SF's website and point out their "nationalist socialist" policies to me, please. I'm asking you to do that, because I cant find any, they are anything but nationalist-socialist. Then no doubt, as Ireland's old centuries long occupier, Britain has a historical link with Romanism aswell, and thus is a conduit to nazism, yes? So you are seriously telling me that Sinn Fein/IRA are not Socialists and they are not Nationalists, well that is a new one as I thought that was their mandate. The next thing you will be telling us is that they are not Romanists either. What exactly do they represent or stand for if they are none of these things. The Sinn Fein/IRA/Nazi ideology is there for all to see and the Dictator Paisley on our side of the fence is now aligned with the Fascists so we know exactly who our real enemies are. Slowly but surely the tide is turning in our beleagured island and I suspect the real Irishmen and Irishwomen will unite in the fight against the real Nazis irrespective of where they arise from. Many, many Britons and Irishmen and Irishwomen fought side by side against the Nationalist/Socialists during the Second World War and it is obvious from the recent elections that many, many more are willing to risk life and limb to ensure Marty/Gerry/Big Ian/Wee Willie are not going to suceed in their evil plans to bring us under the despotic jackboot of Fascism no matter where it springs from. |
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Post by Wasp on Jul 22, 2007 0:29:53 GMT
And what is the only democratic country in Western Europe that has a statue of a nazi sympathiser? What party has an annual commemoration to this same nazi lover? Before you cast judgement on the BNP take a good look at your own doorstep and those whom you vote for.
And I do not believe personnally that Irish people are nazis.
Again sinn fein commemorate a nazi collaborator or am I wrong?
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 3:36:20 GMT
Err, hold on a minute. Do you think National Socialism, and Socialism are the same thing? God. The only similarity between National Socialism and Socialism is the name. Nationalists who are Socialists does not equal National Socialism even though it may look like it to someone who wouldnt know any better. National Socialism was a reactionary force against Socialism and Communism in Germany, it was by no means Socialist. Sinn Fein are Republicans, by theory and history are Socialists, and by practise in Government they are center-left. You should do a lot more reading on political terms because your entire first paragraph was invalid because of your first two lines. The only Socialists in World War 2 was the Soviet Union. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism - Nazism as in the national socialist german workers party aka the nazi party: " Nazi ideology stressed the racial purity of the German people and persecuted those it perceived either as enemies or Lebensunwertes Leben, that is "life unworthy of life". (This included Jews, Roma, Slavs and homosexuals, along with Catholic clergy and religious people, Jehovah's Witnesses, the mentally and/or physically disabled, socialists, and communists.) ". Firstly why on earth would DeValera, a highly religious nutter, support the murder and enslavement of catholic clergy in Germany? Secondly, why would the national socialists persecute socialists if they were the same thing? |
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Post by Jim on Jul 22, 2007 4:01:22 GMT
Why do you insist on saying nazi sympathiser? we've established this before WASP, you just dont want to listen. Sean russell didnt "help" the germans because he believed in german national socialism (why would he? he was irish), he wanted guns and ammunition. Thats not sympathising no matter how much you make it look like it, put on a ribbon on it why dont you?
I can cast a lot of judgement on the BNP, the party I vote for arent calling for mass deporation of foreigners.
That wasnt directed to you.
He collaberated with the Soviet Union aswell, who fought the Nazis, should you include he was a soviet collaborator? Or does it not sound as sharp?
Why do right-wing nazi activists (aka skinheads who do silly nazi salutes infront of swatstikas) attack his mural? Surely a nazi collaborator and sympathiser would be respected by his fellow nazis!!!
Says a lot to me.
Being honest WASP, blueman, if I where you I'd be a lot more worried about fascists trying to recruit from loyalist communities right now and white power groups being linked with loyalist paras than a man that died 60 years ago on a u boat. Thats the truth.
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