irish president starts another row

[Wasp]

setanta said:

"The new era of understanding and mutual respect doesn't allow for a visit"

that's my point Harry. They're isn't mutual respect and I've pointed this out several times on this thrend already.
From Sinn Féin to Fianna Fail to Mary McAleese, we've shown respect. It hasn't been reciprocated.

Setanta your logic is unbelievable. Please tell me how many ceremonies Her Majesty has been invited to by the Irish gov/president etc to lay wreaths? How on earht can she do any of this without being invited to dos so. Apart from that she has laid wreaths for all the fallen of the world wars including the many many Irish who died. This is something that their own country failed to do for years and years.

So get off your high horse and double standard bullshit, when did you start commemorating the Irish war dead of the two world wars or even the Korean war?

[Wasp]

Setanta you and your party are good at offending, antagonizing, treating people differently, kings of double standards then you moan about respect.

Now could you answer my question again, how many times has her majesty been invited by the Irish gov./president etc to lay wreaths? This would be a good place to show here respect would it not?

Now you do know she lays wreaths for all the fallen during the wars, there is not and never has been an except the Irish. Only the Irish such as yourselves excluded these brave men, not the Royals, the British but Irish people such as yourself and you talk about respect?
Could you tell me 'when' you and your party started commemorating the Irish war dead instead of the 'all are remembered' answer.

On Jackie McDonald I think you have read too much into his visit and the game of golf.

[Blue Angel]

Fighting tyranny in World War One hey, hmmmmm shame no one was adressing the fact (beyond a few slaps on the wrist) that 'brave little Belgium' was only very shortly prior to that running a bit of Africa in a manner that would have made all the later tyrants of the 20th century swell with pride. Fighting tyranny was not why anyone went to War in WW1 and any look at the history of the conflict will soon dispell that notion.

Who are these criminals during the Easter Rising btw - were the local hoods out of control even this far back

[Wasp]

Yep local brainwashed undemocratic hoods who couldn't let the then Irish leader (Redmond I think) deal with things peacefully.

[earl]

harry said:

You want the queen to apologise........get a grip of reality. In all honesty i'm not bothered whether the queen ever makes a visit to ROI. Its of no concern to me either way. What concerns me is the double standards but again its so common that it should be expected.

This is exactly what I mean about it being a crap precondition. Most Unionists would fell as you do Harry, and if anything, most Unionists would be glad of this, as it's another would-be stick. This would dramatically backfire if it was a precondition. This is why I'm not convinced.

[Blue Angel]

Redmond was UNABLE to deal with things and that's why things gradually slipped away from him - I actually quite like Redmond and his brother who died fighting in the British army* from what I've read about them and think they come across as likeable enough men but John Redmond was out of touch by the eve of the first world war with the currents flowing in Irish politics. Is this Redmond the same btw one who was booed down for protesting the executions of the Easter Rising Leaders and saying that the British army could have had men as brave as them fighting for it had promises on Home Rule been carried through? Oh btw Patrick Pearse was a friend of Redmonds and appeared on platforms with him before his politics become radicalised and even afterwards did not set out to insult as some did later.

*Just as as an aside to show the wonderful paradoxes of Irish history when he died the men of the Ulster Divison collected £100 pound and gave him a special single grave of his own as although politically he obviously disagreed with many of them he was well respected and liked as an officer -especially as since even though he was in his mid 50's he still insisted on fighting with his men at the front and not been given a desk job away from the front lines whcih is what led to his death.

[Wasp]

he sounds like a brave man indeed

[Blue Angel]

Just as those in the Easter Rising were brave also - an acceptance of both been brave or the men of the Ulster Division been brave need not deny those fighting for other casues of having equal bravery. To me there were brave men on all sides in World War one. You are aware I presume that the Brigadier General from the British army presiding over the court martials of the rebel leaders actually commented many times later that ordering Pearse's death was one of the hardest things he ever had to do. Criticise the flaws in the personalities of those leading the rising or criticise whether it was a good or bad idea but simplistically calling them hoods is a poor position to take I think. And not borne out by the facts either or representative of the individuals who did join the irish volunetters who were were not corner boys to use the slang of their own era.

[Bilk]

I think perhaps this thread has been hijacked somewhat. I understood it to be about the Quens visit to Dublin, and Mary McAlees's double standards?

[Jim]

Brian Feeney wrote in his article (im actually writing this out so any spelling mistakes are my fault) in the Irish news:

On march 4 Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach in the ail: "Is it the taoiseach's intenton to have the government extend an invitiation to the Queen Elizabeth of England to visit this state at some time in the future?"

Bertie Ahern replied: "Obviously, until the institutions were back up and running in Northern Ireland it was not a matter that had moved on any further than an aspiration that would happen. It was hoped that with the devolution of policing, the remaining issues oustanding from both the GFA and the St Andrews Agreement would be complete and it was the government's view that at that stage we could discuss the matter more seriously. If the issue of policing is completed - it is scheduled to be completed andI hope that is the case in the very short term, then we could put our mind to that matter in a serious way. We are due to come back on it at that time and we would have an obligation to do so".

(The Presidents statement was similar to this, I cba typing it out)

When the President gave this statement, unionists were outraged. Why? Unionists obviously pay no attention to anything that goes on in the Dail in the naive and bigoted belief that it has got nothing to do with the six counties. That may once have been the case but for more than 20 years since the AIA the Irish government has a guaranteed input into northern affairs. It took unionists and their newspapers 24 hours to learn Bertie ahern had set out the government's position on a visit by the Queen weeks before the PResident's visit to the north.

Still unionists ranted. Why is there any linkage between devolution of policing and justice powers and a royal visit south, they wonder?

The Queen is the head of state representing a government that claims jurisdiction over part of IReland. It may be "our wee country" to unionists but it's not. Nither the british nor the Irish government thinks so. [/u]They agree the north's fate lies in the hands of all Irish people. No British monarch would ever be coming to the Republic while the British government exercised direct rule in the north, a system never envisaged in the 1921 treaty and always regarded as a temporary expedient y the British.

The GFA is an arrangement to enable Irish people to administer the north in a way that is acceptable to both governments An integral part of that arranement is that pre 1972 justice powers are resotored for nationalists and unionists to administer jointly in the north. That will complete the arrangement. You'll notice that our current proconsul never misses an opportunity to proclaim the desire of his government to hand over justice and policing to local people in order to fulful its commitment at st andrews.

So let's spell it out in simple words for the benefit of DUP members. Unless and untill they agree to share justice and policing with Sinn Fein the GFA will not be complete and their queen won't be in Dublin Castle reading out any speeches the British government has written for her. Let's also be clear that the failure to establish normal relations between Britain and Ireland is therefore entirely the fault of the DUP and its inability to lead its supporters or tell them the truth.

Devolution of policing and justice is essential for SF to enable republicans to support the institutions of state and the DUP knows that. If SF had no believed that there was an agreement on such devolution in 2006 it would not have persuaded its supporters to back the PSNI. Nationalists support for policing and justice in the north, absent for 80 years is a prize you would think unionists would want to strive for instead of inventing distractions about Mart McAleese.




There you have it, clear as day, along with British and Irish government policy. local control of police and justice will strengthen the relationship between Britain and Ireland, not a Royal visit, which is against British policy at the present. Keeping in mind that the Monarch is, in Paisleys own words, a puppet of the Government.

[Harry]

My reference to welcoming Mary to NI was in the sense of her being the head of state of ROI. My reference to the Papal visit was my weak attempt to try and find someone who might offend Unionists as much as Republicans are offended by the Queen.

Its of no benefit to me if the queen were to visit ROI. I don't know why i'm arguing about even trying to get her to visit the place I was wrong, there is no double standards, the opposition is nothing to do with anti-britishness. I'm out of this one

[Jim]

The Queen doesnt offend me I just agree with the Irish Govt policy (for once) that the police should be transfered to local control so we can call the GFA a finished deal, because it completes the ownership of NI from Westminster, to Stormont. The British Government seem to be in agreement with that, so unionists are really on their own on this one in regards to the Queen.

[Wasp]

Thank you, ;D

yOU ARE more than welcome.

I must remember these words the next time a Sinn Féin Member attendings an Imperialist World War 1 Commeration out of respect for Unionist History.

Would it be civic duty and the fact the fallen are commemorated throughout most if not all the democratic countries of the world and from each corner of the world. Maybe sinn fein realized it looked bad if they didn't attend commemoration meetings. BTW it is not just Unionist history it is also a big part of Irish history ir have you forgotten that. Nice how you twist things looking for a pat on the back for doing something your party should have been doing for years as well as your countries governemnt.

I will really keep this in mind the next time a Sinn Féin rep, is the only political rep to speak up for a Loyalist Community after your own reps ignore your concerns, like in The Village area of Belfast.
And most of all I'll keep this in mind when I see DUP/UUP/TUV transfers going to Sinn féin instead of each other just like in the Dromore by-election.

I am voting sinn fein from now on.

She hasn't been to my knowladge. QUICK EDIT.
What would you say if she was invited to Vinigar Hill or The GPO to lay a wreath in memory of the brave Irish Men and Irish Women who fought there?

If she was invited to Ireland then it would only be right for her to attend such a ceremony, if Ahern or McAleese would lay a wreath at the cenetaph in London then why wouldn't the Queen do it in Ireland?

all those who fought for Britian.
wha?
OK.
Again. Wha?

all Irish Men and Women who died in foreign wars, on what-ever side, are remembered

So you have been remebering the few of the leaders who died in the Easter rising and/or after it, yet this day started in 1986. When did your party begin to commemorate the Irish men who died fighting for the allies (Britain) in the world wars?

there's plenty of visits WASP. Ask him

I have, well not directly to him but to those with him. So come on post details of these visits with Mary.

Now isn't this thrend about your Queen? Do you have a point o make?

I have made plenty of points, can you not read properly??

[Wasp]

The Irish gov. are being a bunch of hypocrites on this subject. If Unionists said they wanted a UI and the president came out with what she said then on that alone the whole UI thing would be off.

Republicans just can't see the double standards being handed out, setanta keeps crowing on about what The Queen has done etc, how many fucking times has the Queen been invited to do anything. So with republicans it is a no-win situation, condemn the thought of her visiting, then condemn her for not showing respect to Irelands fallen (which BTW she has done many times). When is she given a chance to appease republicans ffs? Everything is about republican terms as usual.

You know what IMO a return to violence perhaps would be a good thing, maybe then sinn fein won't have to work so hard to build and maintain divides, create and maintain tensions etc etc.

Oh BTW 2 final words.

NO SURRENDER!!!!!!

[Jim]

There is nothing hypocritical about having a policy that policing should be devolved.

I don't want or need to be appeased. Setanta might, but his party arent in a position to say owt down south, they only have a say in the north. In reality, Unionists are the ones keeping Lizzie away from going south. Agree to devolve the powers and she will be invited. Its not a matter of wanting it, its a matter of needing it. Its okay for the DUP ministers to be living in the arse hole of no where. I'll invite them (and Lizzie) to a night in Divis and they'll agree the next day. It might take a few screeching cars and their car windows smashed and the car taken, but it'll work