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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 8:09:54 GMT
NI Assembly Irish ban is rejected
MLAs reject a motion calling for an end to Irish in the chamber
The NI Assembly has rejected a motion calling for an end to Irish being spoken in the Stormont chamber.
The UUP's David McNarry, who tabled the debate, said the language was being "forced down unionists' throats".
Nationalist assembly members put down a petition of concern, which means unionists cannot push through the measure against their will.
However, the petition was not needed as the motion was rejected by 46 votes to 44, with Alliance also opposing it.
Mr McNarry said his party rejected any nationalist attempt to smear unionists as bigots over discomfort with the use of gaelic.
A Sinn Fein petition ensured the motion, requesting the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) prevent the use of Irish in the legislature, would require significant cross-community support.
Mr McNarry said the debate was: "A clear definitive signal that unionists are fed up with the Irish language being thrown in their faces."
"There is no demand here, just a request, no abuse of anybody' rights and I reject any attempt by any republican to smear any unionist by branding him a bigot," he added.
Sinn Fein's Caral Ni Chuilin said the debate would recruit scores of fresh Irish language recruits.
"The issue of language rights, a non-controversial issue in Wales, Scotland, the south of Ireland and throughout Europe, an expression of human rights, has now become a political football in the battle for supremacy between the unionist parties," she said.
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 8:13:13 GMT
To me personally this is an example of trying to force something down others throats. Its using the Irish language in political games. Who the hell in Stormont will understand it?? Whats the need for it other than trying to cause tensions. Go out into the community and try and teach it to those who want to learn it and certainly good luck to you but don't abuse it.
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 9:48:00 GMT
I think it relates also to an alledged incident where a letter was recieved back from a minister half written in Irish, don't know if it was merely the translation from English but i don't see the need. I don't see the need for Irish,Ulster Scots,Mandarin or whatever. Soon it'll be Polish, Russian etc etc. The language of this country is English and that is adapted by all sides. I've no problem with encouraging the Irish language or others speaking their own lingo but when addressing the stormont government it should be done in English.
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 10:39:22 GMT
Don't know what i'm supposed to see from that link but i'm sorry cos i can't read it all and not sure what your trying to point out. I'm not backing this UUP minister but merely used it as a means to open the thread. Its my opinions and mine only. I don't believe that the assembly should be addressed in anything other than English, unless of course they have a visitor who doesn't speak fluent English and it would be absurd to expect someone to do something in a language they don't speak. I'm not saying Irish should be banned or any other language banned, people are free to do what they like but why address the assembly in a language that very few understand?? That goes for any language other than English, not just Irish.
Its an express of culture etc etc but it merely allows others to try and stretch this expression of culture. next you will have DUP members turning up with Orange sashes on because that is their culture but that also is absurd. English keeps it plain and simple for everybody.
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 12:35:20 GMT
I agree with you, it shouldn't be targeting Irish in this way. My view is based solely on the practicality of it all. Not using any different languages keeps it the same for everybody, thats my point.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 10, 2007 13:54:04 GMT
While I can understand Harry's point, we must take into account the society we live in. And our local government must reflect that society. As other nations do that have two or more ethnic groupings, in their governments both languages are accommodated. Yes, we can all speak English, but I am Irish, I want to speak Irish, my children speak Irish and English. And in society here there is a large section of society that wants to live within that Irish tradition and with that culture. We are not looking to ban the use of English or to deny anyone the right to use it. But we are looking to be represented by those we elect to the local government.
There is no practicality in denying local government ministers if the so want, to express themselves in the language of their culture/tradition. Especially when this is usually followed with an English translation for those that do not understand. Let us be honest, the speeches of Assembly members are of little importance, the arguments and political debate and in most cases the decision has already been made well before the Assembly speech gets made.
So this has nothing to do with practicality it is to do with playing to the tv cameras and the watching media. This is about winning votes, by playing to the converted brethren in their home constituency. Yes SF are using their couple of Irish words as a political tool. But equally Unionists are combating this with various counter-measures. The better approach for Unionists would be to remove this tool from SF, not ban them from using it. That is for Unionists to take the high moral ground and agree that equality is a good thing, a positive thing.
But the reason why this is news now is because next week DUP minister Edwin Poots makes his decision on an Irish Language Act. So the UUP stirs up things the week before, making it a lose-lose situation for the DUP and Edwin. And last week everyone thought Brown was going to call a November Westminster Election. If Poots agrees to make legislation for an Irish Language Act (which I doubt he will), then he is siding with SF. If he dismisses the need for an Irish Language Act then he is a Unionist bigot.
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Post by Jim on Oct 10, 2007 14:03:56 GMT
To me personally this is an example of trying to force something down others throats. Its using the Irish language in political games. Who the hell in Stormont will understand it?? Whats the need for it other than trying to cause tensions. Go out into the community and try and teach it to those who want to learn it and certainly good luck to you but don't abuse it. Those who speak Irish will understand it. Those at home watching the debates will understand it. I don't know about you Harry, but I'm as fluent in Irish as I am in English. If the UUP want to pretend they're being hard men by banning the Irish language thats their problem, it'll not pass and they'll not dictate what language anyone will speak in. It was things like that by the same party that kicked off the troubles. |
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 14:55:35 GMT
To me personally this is an example of trying to force something down others throats. Its using the Irish language in political games. Who the hell in Stormont will understand it?? Whats the need for it other than trying to cause tensions. Go out into the community and try and teach it to those who want to learn it and certainly good luck to you but don't abuse it. Those who speak Irish will understand it. Those at home watching the debates will understand it. I don't know about you Harry, but I'm as fluent in Irish as I am in English. If the UUP want to pretend they're being hard men by banning the Irish language thats their problem, it'll not pass and they'll not dictate what language anyone will speak in. It was things like that by the same party that kicked off the troubles. So you can Jim, fair play to you but how may more are fluent speakers of the Irish language in NI?? Is there any figures for it?? Not a dig but merely trying to guage the amount of fluent Irish speakers we have in NI??? Jim i don't know any Irish but i'm not against it in anyway. |
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 15:00:57 GMT
While I can understand Harry's point, we must take into account the society we live in. And our local government must reflect that society. As other nations do that have two or more ethnic groupings, in their governments both languages are accommodated. Yes, we can all speak English, but I am Irish, I want to speak Irish, my children speak Irish and English. And in society here there is a large section of society that wants to live within that Irish tradition and with that culture. We are not looking to ban the use of English or to deny anyone the right to use it. But we are looking to be represented by those we elect to the local government. There is no practicality in denying local government ministers if the so want, to express themselves in the language of their culture/tradition. Especially when this is usually followed with an English translation for those that do not understand. Let us be honest, the speeches of Assembly members are of little importance, the arguments and political debate and in most cases the decision has already been made well before the Assembly speech gets made. So this has nothing to do with practicality it is to do with playing to the tv cameras and the watching media. This is about winning votes, by playing to the converted brethren in their home constituency. Yes SF are using their couple of Irish words as a political tool. But equally Unionists are combating this with various counter-measures. The better approach for Unionists would be to remove this tool from SF, not ban them from using it. That is for Unionists to take the high moral ground and agree that equality is a good thing, a positive thing. But the reason why this is news now is because next week DUP minister Edwin Poots makes his decision on an Irish Language Act. So the UUP stirs up things the week before, making it a lose-lose situation for the DUP and Edwin. And last week everyone thought Brown was going to call a November Westminster Election. If Poots agrees to make legislation for an Irish Language Act (which I doubt he will), then he is siding with SF. If he dismisses the need for an Irish Language Act then he is a Unionist bigot. Again AFD i pose the same question to yourself. Prove to me with figures that NI has a fluent Irish speaking community?? I know its not something you can just put a figure on but its good to know what the rough figures are. I don't see the speaking of English as in anyway one up for us or as in anyway stopping Irish speaking so maybe thats why i think it should only be English?? Is there resentment within the nationalist community of the English language in NI?? it really isn't something that even crossed my mind |
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Post by Harry on Oct 10, 2007 15:11:58 GMT
translate this to Irish for me Jim or AFD if you wouldn't mind just to i get a weee gander as to what it looks like.
Hello, my name is harry. The weather has been mighty strange lately. Is it possible to buy you a beer.
I've got a good few mates who are fluent welsh speakers and they will be rabbiting on in welsh and all these English words just keep popping up. They say its because the language is so old that there are no welsh words for some of the words we use today so they merely use English words as well. Is this the case with Irish as well??? Jim i was in your neck of the woods the other day, in wythenshawe. I'll buy you student bum a beer next time i'm up
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Post by Jim on Oct 10, 2007 17:16:02 GMT
Its the case with some Irish words but modern languages still in use do it too. Japanese has an entire system of english loan words, so does Chinese, German, French, Spanish, etc. I'd use words like TV and Phone or the occasional english word if I dont know the word for something in Irish the only important thing is that its understood.
Wythenshawe, what where you up there for? ;D
In irish, that would translate into, or I'd say at least.. "Dia duit... Harry is anim dóm. Tá an aimsir aon aisteach anois nach bhfuil sé! An mhaith leat beoir?"
As for percentages, its hard to gauge that because some people will say yes when they only know a few sentences, and others will say they arent fluent when they most likely are. If its any help, in West Belfast alone there are two irish language primary schools, one irish language secondary school that was consistantly on top of the league tables for years before they where abolished, one university/college that specialises in Irish teaching and the language, and there are more irish speaking schools in Derry and North Belfast I think. Thats a lot of children mate, its easily working into the thousands.
Thats not including those that learnt Irish in jail, learnt Irish by going to night classes organised in pubs, learnt Irish from their kids!! learnt Irish from they where no age from parents or grandparents speaking it and people learning it on the internet. In the north we arent embarrased by the language like they are in the south because its taught differently, its not seen as big devs obsession and something that only farmers speak.
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 11, 2007 9:18:25 GMT
I would agree with Jim the last census did give a very high figure for people who answered yes to the question about did they know Irish. Some with few words might have put down yes. So it is hard to know the real facts, but as Jim pointed out some of the schools and their high acedemic achievement record. He missed out all the nursary schools there seems to be one around every corner now. But regardless of size and how many do use it, most SF voters could be described as having a strong link with an Irish identity and a want for the langauge aspect to be recognised and respected. And to be afforded rights and a recognised status. That desire alone whether sensible or not should be enough. And the desire of the nationalist community to see the language expressed and used within government should not be prohibited by Unionist bigotry. For myself I would not say there is resentment of the English language, but I do feel I have been denied the choice. I am into genealogy and know that various family elements were Gaelic speakers. I have read Irish history extensively and know that various measures were used to surpress and discourage Gaelic speaking and promote the use of English. I spoke previously of an 'awakening' when learning the language after many attempts. And I know that while I was in this new 'awareness' my thought processes were different, I no longer translated Irish into English to understand, and English into Irish to reply, I just understood and replied, and I thought and dreamt 'as Gaeilge' (in Irish). I do believe that language is important, even if we are just talking about English. The terms we apply sets up our thought processes. Joy-riders v Death-drivers, terrorist v freedom fighter, police informer v responsible citizen. Some terms define people as sexist, racist, ageist etc, etc. So the language we use is important. I should be allowed to see my langauge of choice used in my government of choice. Otherwise it no longer represents me but rules over me. I can understand and recognise that the language is used as a political tool/weapon. And I can understand how getting hit with this weapon everyday can rub Unionists (even mild ones) up the wrong way. But Unionists are so predictable and that they play into the hands of Republicans every time. Gregory Campbell's attempt to deride the daily antagonism only made him look an extreme racist bigot to the world audience. And you can be sure that his comments will be circulated worldwide. If it was me I would have the piece on UTube and play the DVD at fund raisers. Unionists need to get sharper and up to speed, but there is little sign that despite the new pact, any thing has progressed. As for the translation, as Jim knows translation is open to interpretation. There is not a direct translation for 'Hello'. And the most prefered option is the one used by Jim. Dia duit (phonetics - Dee-a dit) but that changes as you travel, in the north we emphasize the start of the word, in Munster they emphasize the end, Connaught do something else and Leinster follow Munster. In general most standard teaching follows Munster, but we in the north like to buck the system. No doubt some will now jump on and claim that this is all wrong! As someone who does not believe in God, I am not in favour of the 'Dia duit' greeting, as the direct translation is 'God with you' and the standard reply to this is 'Dia's Muire duit' which is God and Mary with you. And then it gets stupid because there is a reply to that and to that reply, and we start to go through the Irish saints - Patrick, Brid etc etc. So I tend to use other ways of greeting. Caidé mar atá tú? or Cad é mar atá tú? - How are you (Ulster style) Conas atá tú? - How are you? (Munster). Or - An bhfuil tú go maith? - Are you good/well? Now I am not a religious person but is there not something about Protestants and a dislike for Mary?? I just wonder how a greeting that builds in Mary to the reply, fits with Protestant Irish speakers. And I might shorten 'Harry is anim dóm' - to - Harry atá orm or Is mise Harry (usually the Is mise ..)[Harry is my name -to- I am Harry], now before I talk about the weather, I get the beer bit in first. I think Jim is a bit rusty, Ar mhaith leat beoir? = Would you like a beer? That would be my translation, as Jim has only asked you do you like beer? he has not offered you one, typical student! But I think it was a typo because - do you like beer = An maith leat beoir? The insertion of the letter 'h' is important, and Jim put one in so it suggests he meant Ar instead of An. And once I got the beer, sod talking about the weather I am drinking this beer! I am not that good at spelling, in English or Irish. I tend to listen to the news, in Irish as well as in English, I flick from news to news. I tend to only speak with friends I know have Irish and if a friend joins the company and does not speak Irish I think it is impolite to continue in Irish, as I do not intend to give running translations. So most of my confidence would be with oral Irish. I say that because I know a different Irish word for strange, but I can not think how it might be spelt. Jim has said it correctly in grammer terms, but I speak grammatically wrong and use slang. And I might be inclined to twist it a bit - Nach bhfuil an aimsir aon aisteach ag an noimead. Here is a online dictionary, but phrases need to be put together, you can not just put English words translated together to make sense. www.englishirishdictionary.com/But this site should be better, www.gaeilge.ie/And for those who love the Beeb - www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/learners/beag1.shtml |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Oct 11, 2007 9:26:49 GMT
Oh yes, Jim is right English words are inserted, for various reasons. There is a 'body' who do form words that are for new things. And I remember reading the Irish word for 'Jet proplusion engine' and thinking I am never going to use that!
But also Irish words are inserted into English and are even in the English dictionary. So at what point is it an English word or an Irish word, as Jim says it is getting understood is important. But when one language wants to be dominant over another, and subjigate the other langauge to a lower status, that we move into politics.
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Post by Harry on Oct 11, 2007 13:06:45 GMT
I suppose when you look through English words its is littered with words of French, German etc. I just assume them to be English without thinking where did they come from. I really find languages interesting and I'm in awe of people who can speak multiple languages. I go away with work and can only speak English and you have all these different people able to speak all sorts of languages, its quite humbling and embarrassing when i can't reply in anything other than English  I've a mate from Venezuela and he speaks fluent Spanish,English,French and is quite good in German but not fluent. Asking why he knows all this, his reply that it was vital for him to know these to succeed in work. That is crazy, things i take for granted and others put all this effort in merely to be good at work. |
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Post by Harry on Oct 11, 2007 13:12:28 GMT
To reply to Jim and AFD. I still doubt the actual numbers of Irish speakers and would say less than5% of people in NI can speak or understand it. Maybe thats harsh but just how i see it. I've no desire to hinder or infringe anybodys right to speak it or learn it so banning it from stormont isn't the right way to go about it. Its finding the balance between it not being used to antagonise or as a political tool or allowing others to stop it through sheer bigotry. Jim i was working up there for the day, i'm always up and about Manchester. We'll get a beer one day  |
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