Stormont Irish ban rejected

[An Fear Dubh]

If Unionists know 'Republicans games' in regards to language, why do they always react in a way that gives Republicans the moral high ground?
Because their reactions suggest that they do not know, or have a 'Monty Python type' logic. Or more likely their tribal bigotry is too entrenched, and are blinded to anything else.

[Jim]

They don't know how to deal with republicans yet. Some have the opinion republicans should be six feet under, and some havent yet came to the conclusion that they need to work with us if they want the state to stay. Its ironic actually.

When the Irish language is accepted by unionist politicians it'll be a sign of the times. That hasnt happened yet, they tried to ban it and failed and I'm unsure to what MLA voted on what but surely some members of the UUP and DUP would have had to vote no for it not to get through?

I think its funny that a UUP politician tried to ban a part of my culture and then tried to say he wasnt a bigot. Can you picture the uproar if it happened in another country?

[An Fear Dubh]

It is the same as funny story man Wasp saying that he sees Irish as pointless and does not want to see it used in the Assembly, but he is not trying to be bigoted or dominate his culture over others!!

[Wasp]

anfeardubh said:

It is the same as funny story man Wasp saying that he sees Irish as pointless and does not want to see it used in the Assembly, but he is not trying to be bigoted or dominate his culture over others!!

Another classic full of shit reply. You really should be on stage. It just shows how republicans like yourself look to be offended.

So seeing the language as pointless and not wanting it in an assembly where few will understand it, where few of the people the assembly represents will understand it makes me bigoted and domineering. Now thats rich coming from a provo of all people. Boom boom basil.

[Republic]

I think its important not to let any defence of Irish become an excuse to bash the English language. Whatever about anything else, British conquest has provided at least one invaluable resource- fluency in English.

With that said, it is disgraceful to think that unionist politicians are trying to oppose the use of Irish in stormont. It is quite ridiculous to think that a political assembly on the island of Ireland would not be able to partly proceed in Irish if its members wished it to do so.

This is one move that smacks of colonialism, imperialism and dominance.

I can see the arguments non-Irish speakers make: that it is pointless and so forth. However, that does not mean they are speaking as bigots, but perhaps from a position of misunderstanding.
I would ask unionists to consider the importance of the Irish language to Irish people.
Its native to the whole island, and should not be discarded just because you dont want anything to do with it.
How about investigating it a bit further? I'm sure you will find it is a part of your own history and culture too. I read elsewhere that the Apprentice Boys of Derry spoke Irish.

[Wasp]

republic said:

I think its important not to let any defence of Irish become an excuse to bash the English language. Whatever about anything else, British conquest has provided at least one invaluable resource- fluency in English.

With that said, it is disgraceful to think that unionist politicians are trying to oppose the use of Irish in stormont. It is quite ridiculous to think that a political assembly on the island of Ireland would not be able to partly proceed in Irish if its members wished it to do so.

This is one move that smacks of colonialism, imperialism and dominance.

I can see the arguments non-Irish speakers make: that it is pointless and so forth. However, that does not mean they are speaking as bigots, but perhaps from a position of misunderstanding.
I would ask unionists to consider the importance of the Irish language to Irish people.
Its native to the whole island, and should not be discarded just because you dont want anything to do with it.
How about investigating it a bit further? I'm sure you will find it is a part of your own history and culture too. I read elsewhere that the Apprentice Boys of Derry spoke Irish.

I have also said in this thread that those who want it should go for it if memory serves me correctly. English is a language they all understand, Irish or anyother language isn't. So on that I see it as pointless. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't support funding for those who wish to learn and embrace the language, the same for Ulster-Scots etc.

The problem with referring to the island of Ireland is that it ceased to exist at partition no matter what peoples opinion are. This island is made up of two different countries and being classed as one is wrong.

At the end of the day the language spoken at stormont won't affect my everyday life and if it goes ahead then fair enough, if not then fair enough.

[Republic]

wasp said:

The problem with referring to the island of Ireland is that it ceased to exist at partition no matter what peoples opinion are. This island is made up of two different countries and being classed as one is wrong.

Its two different states anyway, I am not convinced if there are two different nations or countries in existence.

But the reality is that there are two political states. That does not mean that the island of Ireland no longer exists. Or that there are no Irish people residing in the British part of the island.

And any Irish people living on this island should at the very least be entitled to use Irish in everyday life if they choose to do so.

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are still part of Ireland no matter what way you look at it.

They are politically different, but both part of ''Ireland''.

[Jim]

wasp said:

anfeardubh said:

It is the same as funny story man Wasp saying that he sees Irish as pointless and does not want to see it used in the Assembly, but he is not trying to be bigoted or dominate his culture over others!!

Another classic full of shit reply. You really should be on stage. It just shows how republicans like yourself look to be offended.

So seeing the language as pointless and not wanting it in an assembly where few will understand it, where few of the people the assembly represents will understand it makes me bigoted and domineering. Now thats rich coming from a provo of all people. Boom boom basil.

The language is as pointless as the Queen, if thats the case.

Parliament proceedings are aired on TV.

[Blue Angel]

wasp you should look up how the welsh language was helped back on it's feet, you will find a surprising ammount of militancy including threatened hunger strikes involved. I for one deplore the fact we have not learnt from the welsh and got the language back to the state they have.

As to the island of ireland ceasing to exsist at partition i seemed to have missed that particular geographical disaster in me school books. As a republican i would of course go further than republic but i tihnk he makes fair points abou the intertwined dependence of the two states back there.

[Jim]

didnt you hear? the english blew northern ireland from the republic. we floated up to iceland.

[An Fear Dubh]

From my perspective one of the abilities of societies living in Ireland has been their ability to absorb and integrate aspects of other cultures into the society and to develop themselves socially. So much so that these outside cultures have immersed themselves into the Irish ways with more zeal than the native borns. Thus we had the term 'they became more Irish than the Irish themselves'. I believe this to be true. Irish people are adaptive to changing circumstances. I see nothing wrong with an Irish nation that can speak many languages, and a nation fluent in English can be a good resource. I can verbally pass myself off in French, German and possibly Spanish at a push but do not ask me to write anything. And I know many others that can use languages other than English and Irish. I have no intention or desire to remove any language from Irish society.

I think it is typical 'wishy-washy' liberalism that tries to excuse bigotry and sectarianism as ignorance and a lack of misunderstanding. How far are you willing to stretch before you conclude that perhaps it is not ignorance but a carefully calculated ploy to deny one section of society a legitimate right? Of course you are going to get the fools that do not think using the 'misunderstand excuse' as their blanket cover. But we should not be as naive as to pretend that this is coming from misunderstanding, but rather it is coming from intelligent bigotry that sweeps the fools along, and we all know Wasp is our fool.

But we should not re-enforce that negative argument that the Irish language being used in an Assembly that represents a large section of society that demands its culture is of equal standing is pointless at any time. To even say that you SEE an argument in favour of the non use of Irish in the local Assembly here is an excuse in support of bigotry and cultural dominance, and I have to admit I am shocked that it came from Republic who I credited with a better insight and intelligence.

While Wasp may have the excuse of not fully understanding, that is because he does not understand very much anyway. And let us be honest these are not his own original ideas/arguments but ones he has latched onto for whatever reasons. But because of his lack of understanding does that mean that the origin of the idea is not based in bigotry, or because he does not understand what he is putting forward is not a bigoted proposition? Without a doubt denying the rights of Irish culture to be expressed in the Assembly that represents the society of people here is a bigoted and sectarian view and ignorance is not an acceptable excuse even from those who are unable or unwilling to let themselves understand.

[Harry]

I don't accept that anyone who doesn't see the point in using Irish in the assembly as being a bigot. This is just nonsense and stereotypical that assumes everyone has sectarian motives behind the non use of the Irish language. I have already stated that i don't see the point in Irish being spoken in the assembly but if it is important to Nationalists then i'll roll with it. Culture, Heritage etc is important to my community so we must respect the views of others. Let us hope Unionism finds the ability to welcome the Irish language and others will become more tolerable of Unionists Culture and Heritage. Its win win for everybody.

[An Fear Dubh]

Okay let me try to put this into clearer terms, as I seem to be getting misunderstood.
Voters in the north voted for people to represent them in the Assembly, over one million people voted. And 108 MLA's were elected. Of those it breaks down like this:
DUP 36 = 30.1% (that percentage is of the total of votes cast)
SF 28 = 26.2%
SDLP 16 = 15.2%
UUP 18 = 14.9%
Alliance 7 = 5.2%
Ind 1 = 3.2%
PUP 1 = 0.6%
Green 1 = 1.7%

So if we put them into blocs:
Unionist:
DUP+UUP+PUP
30.1%+14.9%+0.6%= 45.6%

Nationalist:
SF+SDLP
26.2%+15.2%=41.4%

I am not sure if Alliance are in the Unionist bloc under the d'Hont voting system or whether they were able to declare themselves 'other'. But for this I have kept them separate, as the Alliance did vote against McNarry's motion.
Others:
Alliance+INP+Green
5.2%+3.2%+1.7%=10.1%
Now show me the nationalist representative who does not support the use of Irish (and I can assure you they are retiring come the next election and have nothing to loose, and will loose their seat on that point alone).
So we can say that 45% is blocking the desire of 41%, so why would one large bloc want to prevent another large bloc from having their culture protected by legislation? What is their motivation to deny one culture? The argument that everyone understands English and therefore such an expression of Irish culture is pointless, is not an honest argument. But is a deliberate sidetrack argument, one designed to bring in the fools who are easily lead. For years Unionist politicians have lead working-class protestants down the sectarian cul-de-sac. And because of ignorance, fear and misunderstanding the working class have blindly followed where ever they have been led.

Surely there comes a point when after so many years of being led the working class protestant begins to realize that they are being mislead. If you are being lead by those with bigoted and sectarian motives. And you follow their lead even though you do not fully understand are you not also acting in a bigoted fashion or do we give everyone the fools pardon. So I take the point that you might not intentionally be a bigot but rather a bigot by ignorance and stupidity. I am not sure which type is worst.

You Harry have said that you do not see the point but would agree to the use of Irish if a large bloc so desires, that attitude is not bigoted. That is not the same as what is being said by others - they see no point - therefore that is the end of the matter. And the desire to use Irish is denied to 41%.

[bearhunter]

Found this on line. Nice points:

Poots has politicised Irish Language Act

(Robert McMillen, Irish News)

It was ironic that the day before minister Edwin Poots claimed that translation of government documents under an Irish language act would be too costly, The Bluffer's Guide to Irish championed the fact that the Electoral Office of Northern Ireland had made available electoral registration forms in Irish.

It has done this in a spirit of "inclusiveness", it said. Unfortunately that spirit of inclusiveness has not reached the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure.

There seem to be three main arguments against the now-aborted Irish Language Act, one political, one financial and one emotional.

While Mr Poots is bemoaning the politicisation of the Irish language, his decision has copper-fastened that politicisation by suggesting it is the property of one section of the community.

He has gift-wrapped the Irish language and handed it to Sinn Féin.

"No, we don't want it, you keep it" is his message, therefore perpetuating the perception that the 2,000-year-old Irish language was created by the IRA army council, in the days of berets and dark glasses, as a means of annoying Protestants.

Thankfully, politics works on many different levels from the parliamentary level to street level. While Mr Poots and the totality of unionist opinion at the assembly is against the proposed act, ordinary Protestants, and indeed unionists, are learning Irish in Bangor and Holywood and Sion Mills and in many other places. The Irish language is ideally placed as an issue around which people of different traditions can engage with each other and that will continue in spite of yesterday's (Tuesday) statement.

Obviously implementing an Irish language act would cost money as would any measures to safeguard our cultural wealth. Refurbishing the Ulster Museum is likely to cost at least £15 million but there have been few protests about this expenditure.

Experience in the south has shown that the costs incurred by the Official Languages Act are much less than anticipated and the financial argument in the north isn't all one way.

There would have been financial benefits to an Irish language act through job creation, the growth of cultural tourism, the boost it would give Irish language arts, and let's not forget, that as tax-payers Irish speakers are entitled to have rights upheld.

The "we don't like it, so you're not getting it" attitude of unionists does not bode well for the future.

It is clear that emotion plays a large part in unionist attitudes towards the Irish language. What was striking about David McNarry's demeanour when proposing his motion asking that Irish should be banned from within the assembly was the visceral hatred that the UUP member felt toward the language.

What I would suggest here is for each unionist – and nationalist – MLA to learn a song in Irish. Báidín Fheilimidh would be a good start.

I'm not being facetious.

What this little exercise would teach them is that no language is intrinsically political. It is a cultural artefact with its own inner beauty and that is what Irish speakers aim to preserve and promote. The best way to do this is to "normalise" the language, to make it as commonplace as English where it is wanted.

Once unionists see there is no threat from the Irish language, then it will flourish and the benefits that flow from that will follow.

It has been around for two millennia, the language has learnt to be patient.

[Wasp]

Well AmFlowingDung when you referred to me as a fool, remmeber the wiseman can play the fool but the fool can't play the wiseman. Unfortunately you are far from wise and I thought by now you would have got rid of that very large chip placed firmly on your shoulder.