Stormont Irish ban rejected

[Jim]

I am indeed a bit rusty I didnt notice I said "ar" or "an" improperly. Its been years and i've been re-learning the language over the past few months, mainly vocabulary though because it comes back just as quick as i forgot it, i can still carry out a full length conversation naturally. i never was good at writing in irish or in english for that matter (didnt get my gcse in english untill i was 20).

i prefere to type in irish as i would speak in irish and im not into the elitism that comes with the language, in my opinion that just keeps the language on the shelves, and when you look at english no one types/speaks like a professor unless its for a formal essay or letter.

harry languages are vital these days in the uk aswell i was reading a report about 2 weeks ago on the notice board in the department im in at university that said international companies are more likely to employ someone who can speak various languages but may not have the right qualifications than someone who has the proper qualifications but is limited to english, because they can get them by the dozen. i can speak english, irish, know and can read enough japanese that i could function in japan (took it up because the birds are great over there), and can understand some written french and it'll save me a lot of bother if i continued that because i dont have a lot of qualifications to my name.

5% of a population of nearly 2 million (and growing) is a lot of people! I'd estimate people who can understand even some basic irish to at least 30% and upwards, and loads more children attending irish language schools or learning irish as a gcse. it doesnt mean they are all fluent, that can be worked on.

aye, the place is littered with pubs

[Wasp]

The vast majority if not all have English as there first language at Stormont, everyone understands it and speaks it so why does anyone want to speak in Irish or Ulster-Scots when less than half will understand them. Setanta you said something about a member speaking in Ulster-Scots, my answer to that would be why as it is uneccessary. To do so IMO is using these languages as a political pawn.

[Jim]

If thats the case Wasp then India should just adopt English as well as most of them understand it and many even speak it as a first language now.

But its not the case, the case is there are many people who speak Irish, one of the reasons I voted for Sinn Fein was for them to get Irish language related legislation through, they represent me as an irish language speaker and if they want to give statements in Irish there is nothing no one can do about it. The only people using the language as a pawn are the DUP and UUP who still think its the 1950s.

[Wasp]

I don't agree and as I have said I have no problem with the Irish language being taught to those who want to learn it or anyother language for that matter. I still stand by what I said above and please note I was referring to the member speaking in Ulster-Scots when I used him as an example of these languages being used as political pawns. So it is not I am anti-Irish language as my above post and example will show.

[Jim]

Theres not much point in teaching the language if its never going to be used, its not there to get people misty eyed about their long lost language, its modernising every day.

Its not the Irish counterpart for Latin, something thats only studied as a historical language.

[Wasp]

It has been taught for years and very few use it outside of there community. mOST imo USE IT WITH OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEARNED IT, but if you go into any shop the chances of the shop owner or others in the shop for example understanding or speaking Irish or Ulster-Scots is very very slim.

I know Portestants who feel the same about Ulster-Scots as they do about the Irish language and I know Catholics who are the same. Too few interested IMO.

[Jim]

But whos fault is that Wasp? Unionists dont want anything to do with the language it seems, your politicians try and ban it from parliament proceedings and if an MP was to do the same in Westminster against the Welsh language they'd be requested to leave the chamber, i.e suspension.

There is anything but too few interested in the Irish language. I suppose thats why Irish language schools have a demand for places they cant meet, is it? When I went to primary school it was before government funding and every parent was asked to pay 100 quid a year for their child to attend, some people paid even more than that and the school had a huge waiting list. A waiting list that huge for a school that didnt even have a proper building, and a broken down minibus, they had to be doing something right! Now, West Belfast has about 4 or 5 primary schools within a 15 minute drive from the Bunscoil on the Shaws road, those kids me included and those kids on the waiting list could have went to any other primary school.

[Blue Angel]

I'll add something to this from another angle. My fiancee speaks russian, english* and ukrainian and we had a discussion one day about if we had kids would i be upset if they learnt to speak russian as well as english. My own answer was i would be glad as i regret not knowing my own language well and it would be important for children to learn about the cultures that shaped both their parents.

and jim is quite right, the lanuage is not a dusty artifact and his comments about elitisim are something i agree with. English as a living language is represtented by a multiplicity of accents, most of which are not received English and that is a good thing as it shows it is a living language.


*trying to tell her why irish is not the mainstream language in ireland was an interesting proposition. She finds Irish history 'very confusing' as she put it one day.

[An Fear Dubh]

The number of people who indicated on the 2001 census - in Northern Ireland showed that 167,487 (10.4%) people 'had some knowledge of Irish and, of these, 75,125 “speaks, reads, writes and understands Irish (I assume that to mean fluent).
www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200607/ldhansrd/text/70322w0001.htm - 38k - And the same figures are on the site 'Wikipedia' but I have little faith in that site unless corroborated from elsewhere, here it is corroborated.

While I can see Harry's logic and the reasons to know the 'numbers'. I see that information as irrelevant to the argument of should Irish be used in local government. As Jim has expressed and I would agree one of my main reasons for voting SF was their position on the Irish language. And I think most if not all that voted SF would want the language to have a high priority on SF policy. And if the largest nationalist party wants to express their culture and that of the people who voted for them, then that should be enough. It is not for Unionists to deny or dictate when and where we use our culture. We will not hide in halls, and sing songs with trouser legs rolled up, and do funny handshakes, we want our language to thrive and grow, not stagnate. It must be used in everyday life and to have a meaning and a purpose, not some academic achievement alone. Unionists need to embrace all cultures as society enriching and not for one culture to be dominant, that is bigotry.

[Wasp]

Well I honestly did not think over 75, 000 were fluent in the language. Maybe there is a case for the language to be used on occasion at local government, but in my opinion everyone, well at least the vast majority use English as there first language so I don't see the point.

But if it means alot to many then they should try for it and if passed I have no problem with it at all, I just think it is pointless.

[Wasp]

Jim how many speak Welsh in porportion compared to those who speak Irish in N.Ireland?

[Harry]

I'm surprised at how many there are and still remain unconvinced by the numbers but see what AFD is saying in terms of the numbers not really being important. If people in N.Ireland desire to promote the Irish language then we should not stand in their way. We all should have the same rights and if speaking Irish is important to the nationalist community then it should be acknowledged by Unionists. I only ask that it isn't used merely as a political statement and as something to try and antagonise Unionists with. I also ask Republicans to recognise the sensitivity of the use of the language and because its natural to them it isn't the same for us all.

[Jim]

wasp said:

Well I honestly did not think over 75, 000 were fluent in the language. Maybe there is a case for the language to be used on occasion at local government, but in my opinion everyone, well at least the vast majority use English as there first language so I don't see the point.

But if it means alot to many then they should try for it and if passed I have no problem with it at all, I just think it is pointless.

I dont know how many in Wales speak Welsh I've never been to the place and not saw any figures but I do know the language has full government protection even in England and I do know that its helped the language flurish immensley. I just dont have the figures to back it up at the minute. I'll look later.

10% of 2 million is a lot of people. If it was a political party wanting those 10% votes it would be enough to scare a government.

Its never going to be desensitised if unionists dont get in on the act, its their language too, protestants revived the thing.

[An Fear Dubh]

I think the best way forward for Unionists is to take the political gain out of the issue of the Irish language. And I feel Jim has expressed how best to do that in very simple terms. Jim said (in the thread 'Do Urban Unionist'), "The only way the language can be de-politicised is if its legislated for with the co-operation of unionists. Its down to Edwin Poots if he decides to keep the language a political issue, or normalize it, its not up to republicans anymore we dont have control of that department."

Of course there are aspects to some cultures that we find difficult to understand, and we might call them 'pointless', but because we think they are pointless should we look to suppress that culture and to dominate it, by dictating when and where their culture can be used. There are many aspects that Unionists claim are part of their culture and that Republicans are denying them freedom to express their culture.
How best for Unionists to show the lead and to take an initiative and turn it round to nationalists that Unionists are not wanting to dominate nationalism. By Unionists joining with Republicans to create legislation that protects and gives rights to the Irish language. They can then look to Republicans to lead nationalism in a reciprocal way, and show equal tolerance to Unionist culture. This lessens the 'sensitivity' of the use of the Irish language, as Unionists have made it possible.

[Wasp]

Of course there are aspects to some cultures that we find difficult to understand, and we might call them 'pointless', but because we think they are pointless should we look to suppress that culture and to dominate it, by dictating when and where their culture can be used. There are many aspects that Unionists claim are part of their culture and that Republicans are denying them freedom to express their culture.

I do see your point here (for a change ) but in no way do I see me and the many others seeing it as pointless wanting to dominate or suppress that culture. The Irish language is not my language and I have no desire whatsoever to learn it. Not because it's Irish but simply because I see it as pointless. I wouldn't want to learn Welsh and similar languages either. In all honesty it is highly unlikely that the Irish language will ever kick off with Unionists. But equally I understand the Irish language is important to some and to some it is a way of antagonising or being offended etc which I think is sad.

How best for Unionists to show the lead and to take an initiative and turn it round to nationalists that Unionists are not wanting to dominate nationalism. By Unionists joining with Republicans to create legislation that protects and gives rights to the Irish language.

Again it is not to dominate, it is because it is a language that is hardly used in most areas and few understand it which makes it pointless to have it used in Stormont and this is why Unionists see it being used as a political pawn by republicans. (rightly or wrongly).

They can then look to Republicans to lead nationalism in a reciprocal way, and show equal tolerance to Unionist culture. This lessens the 'sensitivity' of the use of the Irish language, as Unionists have made it possible.

In a way I agree but Unionists know only to well republican games when it comes to Unionists expressing part of there culture. Where ever there is a parade sinn fein will have something to say and this has been proved time and again in places such as Ballymena. Don't take my word for it, take Harry's word on it. He has also witnessed it first hand.