Anger at loyalist grave memorial

[Jim]

Indeed. Thats basically it although in comparison with Saor Eire and the LVF, the LVF didnt go that far and never started with those ideals I dont think, I have to agree with AFD (again).

Some people I just know, have bought drugs from the LVF, the LVF didnt care that there was kafflicks walking up the Village from the other part of the Donegal road so they could get their fix, money was money, it was business, they handed the money over, got their drugs, and fucked off back to the Falls road. There are no loyalist aims in that.

[Wasp]

To call this Catholic Brigade, Catholic Loyalists isn't correct when you know Billy Wright would never have accepted them.

Simply not true, these guys or at least some of them were around when Billy Wright was around and were members then.

They're just Catholic scumbag drug dealers who along with a few other Protestant scum bag drug dealers are using the name LVF as a cover.

Some maybe but some are Catholic loyalists. It seems you find this hard to believe yet you know there were Protestant republicans.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

When Billy Wright broke away from the UVF and formed the LVF the dispute was not over political ideology or political direction. It was because a directive had come from Belfast wanting to distance the UVF away from association with drugs and giving cover to drug dealers. There may have been other reasons for this directive, but the result was to threaten the financial life-line of Billy Wright and limit his automony in the Armagh and beyond area. As the other avenues of financial resources were controled by a older UVF element that held some resentment against Billy.
Billy Wright had no problems in providing the cover for criminality (especially drug dealers) so long as the financial benifits suited Billy. Billy himself did not use drugs, or personally sell drugs, some of his 'Lieutenants' were drug users and dealers. So when Billy and later his 'Lieutenants' were removed the drug empire was more widely divided. But Billy was because he facilitated it, a drug dealer/baron. The difference between Billy and those that followed was Billy saw drug dealing as the financial backing to his military campaign. Those that followed saw drug dealing as the way to personal wealth, and a loyalist ethos was paid lip service to as this provided a cover of legitamcy to their criminal activities.

I don't know where your getting your info regarding Billy Wright and his involvement in drugs and his dispute with the leadership of the UVF. Billy Wright strongly disagreed with the direction the PUP were taken the UVF and he felt strongly that in times when the general Loyalist community were being attacked from all corners that the PUP merely joined in with it to try and give themselves some credibility. This was unforgiveable in Billys eyes and the cracks were showing and becoming to big to heal. Billy also had a big problem with all the directives coming fom the Belfast Leadership and felt that Belfast had to much say in the matters of other areas. There were numerous disputes between the Belfast leadership and the mid Ulster brigade of the UVF.

Things came to head when the UVF in mid Ulster murdered the taxi driver at the height of the Drumcree dispute. As we all know the UVF then sentenced Billy to death but i very much doubt it would of been carried out because the mid Ulster UVF were very notorious and would of made the Belfast leadership pay for any attempt on Billys life. I can't say whether Billy was a drug baron or whether he used this method as a means to finance his terror campaign, again i'd like to know where this info came from. I can only dispute the reasons for the fallout with the UVF and it had everything to do with political reasons.

[Shades40]

WASP they where born Catholics though now they are anything but Catholics, they show the same behaviour much in the way Lenny Murphy did when he was getting stick about being a "taig".
Harry 2 of my mates witnessed Billy sitting at a table at the top of the stairs in "Circus Circus" in Banbridge selling e tabs and from the start of hash dealing in Armagh many years ago it was started by UVF men of the likes of "Marno" and Clifford and Trevor Mc Keown (who where later to join Billy and murder 18-year-old Catholic Bernadette Martin and the taxi driver Martin Mc Goldrick)

Nowadays all the big players in Armagh and surrounding areas are ex/current Loyalists the majority having ties to the LVF it's well known they get immunity because they tout and pay their ways, this doesn't bode well with Nationalists who have disdain for the Police hence why Lurgan is 1 if not the largest support base for Republican dissidents.

[Wasp]

Well the facts are there and so are the names of some at least and most if not all were members in Billy Wrights time. There has been Catholics questioned for membership of the uvf, Catholics arrested over uvf actions and they were questioned although I am not sure about being charged.

I could equally say that every republican group has waged a sectarian campaign against Protestants and there hatred for Protestants is there for all to see.

You say they were more specific about the Protestant bit, I disagree here, it would be the British bit with what they would be most specific on than anything else. Defending Protestants and helping uphold the Protestant faith yes, but the main bit would be remaining British.

If you think back to for example the combined military command they stated that ordinary Catholics had nothing to fear, now we know this wasn't true just in the sameway republicans claim there war wasn't against Protestants.

Harry do you remember the old priest at St Patricks in Ballymena? I think his name was Pat or Joe, he was very fond of the grog and surprizingly he always carried a Union Jack lighter. I thought it hilarious.

[Jim]

The surprising thing about catholics joining the UVF isnt 'loyalty', its that loyalists and unionists are a lot more religious than republicans and nationalists, protestantism is a fundamental part of unionism, catholism is not a fundamental part to republicanism or nationalism, so its odd to hear "catholic uvf".

Also, the combined military command may have said catholics had nothing to fear but the UVF and UFF went out in cars to look for random catholics and its been admitted by loyalists themselves, and documented in a lot of books, its one thing that the IRA didnt do with protstants, they did not go out in cars and drive up the shankill to find a protestant walking home from work and call it a job well done. I'm not trying to start the "ira didnt do what the uvf did" arguement, its not my point at all, its in relation to catholics joining the UVF. the UVF saw them as one and the same with the IRA assuming that the IRA had the same religious links that they had with their religion.

[Wasp]

Setanta the lvf are still around, try Hollywood for example. When they disbanded is irrelevant, the fact remains Catholics joined the lvf and they joined when Billy Wright was alive and well.

As far as uvf catholics in mid Ulster is concerned I haven't a clue, but I do know several further north. Now do you really think I am going to name individuals online and put there lives further at risk especially when to my knowledge they were not charged with anything. One of them at least is still a Catholic and infact his children have been brought up Catholic. The people I am talking about are known to those in the area, drink in loyalist bars and hang around with known loyalists.

Now I also have been told although I am not absolute about it that Catholics diid join the UDA in the north antrim area. But as I have said I do not know for sure about this although it is meant to be true.

[Wasp]

the UVF and UFF went out in cars to look for random catholics and its been admitted by loyalists themselves, and documented in a lot of books, its one thing that the IRA didnt do with protstants, they did not go out in cars and drive up the shankill to find a protestant walking home from work and call it a job well done.

Jim did the ira know those who they killed at La Mon at a collie club meeting? Did they know those at Darkley which was simply a sectarian outrage at easy targets? Republicans hit the church to kill Protestants and it could have been any church hall etc in the sameway it could have been any Catholic that loyalists murdered. So infact they did get in a car to go out and kill Protestants.

[Jim]

I dont know anything about la mon. What I'm saying is IRA members did not pack into a car, drive up the shankill, find a lone protestant and fire a shot at them, and then drive away and call it a mission success, the UVF did and its members have said they did.

[Harry]

jim said:

I dont know anything about la mon. What I'm saying is IRA members did not pack into a car, drive up the shankill, find a lone protestant and fire a shot at them, and then drive away and call it a mission success, the UVF did and its members have said they did.

But WASP is sayin that the IRA went to a Protestant worship hall and just randomly killed Protestants. The IRA stopped a workers bus and freed a Catholic before executing the remaining Protestants. Its silly getting into the cycle of you were worse. We all were horrible. Full stop

[Wasp]

The trhing that does confuse me is that republicans seem to have this fantasy idea of the ira being the protectors of Catholics and Catholic areas etc especially when the troubles started. We always here it was because of Unionists, the British, loyalists that the ira had to go into areas etc and protect Catholics.

I ask any republican here who has this fantisist opinion of the ira for there opinions on what happened at Lettershandowney in the early seventies??

[Jim]

Well Wasp that doesnt really add up because the power struggle within the IRA started in the mid to late 60s, so whatever happened at Lettershandowney doesnt reflect what happened years before during the battle of the bogside and during the deployment of british troops, where they had an uneasy truce with the 'ra.

[Wasp]

Jim it certainly does reflect it and proves what exactly the ira were up to in trying to gain support where they could use the people of those areas as there pawns so they could continue there deadly games.

I haven't the exact date for Lettershandowney but it was at the start of the troubles, could have been late 60's early 70's. I will get the exact year but I always assumed it was early 70's as in 70, 71 or 72 but I could be wrong it may have happened sooner.

[Harry]

setanta said:

harry said:

But WASP is sayin that the IRA went to a Protestant worship hall and just randomly killed Protestants.

No they didn't.

harry said:

The IRA stopped a workers bus and freed a Catholic before executing the remaining Protestants.

Its silly getting into the cycle of you were worse. We all were horrible. Full stop

Yes, it was horrible. But the IRA's campaign objective was not to target Protestants because they were Protestants. I know we're not going to agree on this though

The Catholic Reaction Force or INLA but given the location of the incident is was merely a cover for the IRA. No your right we won't agree on that.

[Jim]

The INLA was not a cover for the IRA..

er?