More Protestants targetted in Dunclug/Ballymena

[Wasp]

No toys, no pram etc, I am just being honest and stating facts throughout my recent posts. You say sectarianism crept in at times within the ira's campaign? Now that is one of the funniest things I have heard, but at least you have admitted it at least in part.

I am not engaging in massive generalisations I am stating my opinion and pointing out the sheer hypocricy of republicans. Blues are sectarian bigots for stating what they believe to be there opinion of the republic, yet these same republicans cannot condemn a bomb which was designed, planned to kill as many Protestants as possible. First accident excuse was that it was meant to go off in the evening, 2nd was midnight but as soon as I throw the 11 SECOND fact you all cannot bring yourselves to condemn it even though Marcus you acknowledged two minutes would not be enough to clear a shop.

What better way to attack Protestants on the shankhill than plant a bomb with an 11 second fuse on it on a busy afternoon then using the uda as an excuse. Just reminds me of so many ira outrages. Maybe if it was your shop and you saw first hand the carnage then you may see things differently but then again with your mindset like many other republicans you probably wouldn't.

[Blue Angel]

actually i have been near two bombs while at work WASP, the IRAdocklands one as I was working nearby as a security guard part-time while at college and the one where the bloke was bombing gay pubs in the west end 6 or 7 years or so back. Also my father was a bomb disposal officer for the IDF - all armies use bombs and bombs are indiscriminate and nasty weapons - in this respect the IRA is no better or worse than the British army.

The Blues do not state just their opinion of the republic's political system or instituions they state that all Irish people are brainwashed scum quite clearly at several points. There is rather a difference between the two things. One can criticise the state that is NI both now and historically without slagging off all the people in it for example based on religous or other grounds - which is where the Blues bros. lack discrection or intelligence in their comments.

[Blue Angel]

in any case i am finishing packing my suitcase for my holiday on sunday here and then tidying up the resulting mess from packing clothes and buggering off to bed. But as a final point for the evening I would say people with outlooks like the Blues bros. on both sides have nothing to offer us - 'no surrender' merchants and 'wrap the green flag around me' outlooks are equally simplistic and not helpful. NI is a very small place on a global scale as is Ireland or even Britain and eejits who can only label entire collections of one country or another 'heretics' or 'oppressors' or 'damned' without taking a more nuanced view are not what we need or ever need in any place.

[blueman]

You are wasting your time WASP, the hatred and Sectarian nature of the Irish 'monster' is there for all to see. The mass murderers of the men, women and kids on the Shankill was well planned and orchestrated, like all the other deaths of both Protestants and Roman Catholics in Ulster and further afield. They are Sectarian murderers but they are prepared to murder members of their own flock if that helps them in their Hellish agenda. The murder of the likes of Patsy Gillespie means little to these psychopaths and only goes to highlight what they are really all about, and that is the Sectarian Ethnic Cleansing of O'Ireland. At least a few fellows down South are switched on to it as well and Eoin Harris mentioned one of their foul murders a few weeks ago in the Sunday Independant. According to him their 'war hero' Francis Hughes murdered a young Protestant girl called Lesley Gordon, aged 10 years, outside Maghera. Their O'Irish hero planted a bomb under her daddy's car murdering both her and her father. Another noble blow for the oul country as they try to drive every Protestant out of Ulster and create their Plastic Paddie land where only 'ourselves alone' can exist. Just imagine what suffering the Irish Protestants suffered at their evil hands when there was little or no media and so they could carry on their butchery unabated.

[Blue Angel]

blueman -you have ably supported all my points above- for which accept my felicitations and gratitude and now i'll away to bed.

Oh yeah just a wee point that occurs lastly if i am only interested in creating a 'plastic paddie' and ethnically and religously pure land why is my fiancee from a different faith and descended from jews and russians through her family tree? I just ask as it tends to bugger up your 'argument' (such as it is) even more.

[An Fear Dubh]

I have never heard of green and orange IRA maps, that is a load of crap.

IRA active service units moved away from using fuses during the 1970's. Timers are far more efficent and the forensic from the Shankill bomb identified the device as a timer unit. There is no way of telling how long the timer was set by forensic analysis. The only way to know is for the person who set the timer to say how long. I would like to see the source that has 'proof' to that 11 second claim.

[Shades40]

blueman said:

You are wasting your time WASP, the hatred and Sectarian nature of the Irish 'monster' is there for all to see. The mass murderers of the men, women and kids on the Shankill was well planned and orchestrated, like all the other deaths of both Protestants and Roman Catholics in Ulster and further afield. They are Sectarian murderers but they are prepared to murder members of their own flock if that helps them in their Hellish agenda. The murder of the likes of Patsy Gillespie means little to these psychopaths and only goes to highlight what they are really all about, and that is the Sectarian Ethnic Cleansing of O'Ireland. At least a few fellows down South are switched on to it as well and Eoin Harris mentioned one of their foul murders a few weeks ago in the Sunday Independant. According to him their 'war hero' Francis Hughes murdered a young Protestant girl called Lesley Gordon, aged 10 years, outside Maghera. Their O'Irish hero planted a bomb under her daddy's car murdering both her and her father. Another noble blow for the oul country as they try to drive every Protestant out of Ulster and create their Plastic Paddie land where only 'ourselves alone' can exist. Just imagine what suffering the Irish Protestants suffered at their evil hands when there was little or no media and so they could carry on their butchery unabated.

Says the back slapping/endorser of the sectarian murder of Catholics as the Loyalist war against the IRA.

[Wasp]

So blueangel you think the British army are no beeter or worse than the ira concerning bombs??? What a joke. Mind you I will enjoy the replies I get to my post, maybe Iraq could be mentioned along with other stuff.

You say the blues have nothing to offer us, well IMO people with your mindset have nothing to offer us either, no offence intended. Have a good holiday anyway.

[Blue Angel]

Iraq would be inevitably mentioned in such a discussion but it would drag the thread even more off topic if we go on about it too long. As I recall this thread started due to the targetting of Protestants in certain areas. I do not recall anyone doing anything but condemn that in the strongest terms. And we need not go as far as Iraq for the British army and bombs we need only look at Ireland itself, bus still it is interesting that you attempt to forestall a critique of the British army by mentioning Iraq the country which is been introduced to democracy via APCs and artillery. What has the been the outcome of this round of neo-imperialism - the country is even worse of than under Saddam Hussein and 10 per cent of its populace are now officially refugees. That you would even mention Iraq shows that the comparision bulks large in your mind.

The British armies record in Ireland itself regarding abuses of the civilian populace makes no better reading over the last 80 or 90 years than the IRA at it's worst. Pretense that either are shining knights is futile, soldiers are ultimately trained killers whatever army they belong to.

[Blue Angel]

The reality is WASP that republicans as I have said before will for all their internal disagreements tend to see attacks on British forces as justified during the troubles - for us to pretend otherwise to assuage hurt feelings would be disingenous. I take no gloating pleasure in soldiers killed but as they were legitimate targets in a war situation from my outlook it would be hypocritical of me to pretend otherwise.

You have had AFD contribute a point of view about this 11 second timer which you have not responded to. Of all of us republican here he is uniquely in a place to speak from insider knowledge. I am to some extent a theoritical republican and my involvement goes only as far as article writing and so forth. But there you have someone who was at the 'coalface' so to speak giving you another perspective...

And unlike BM I have never contended that people should be persecuted or insulted based on their religous or national background - The reality is the IRA believed it was right in attacking British forces and loyalist paramilitaries - for us to suddenly pretend otherwise retroactively may make you feel better but it is in intellectually and morally dishonest.

[Jim]

I have to agree with that, completely.

[Harry]

Republicans viewed soldiers as an occupying force and as such label them legitimate targets. We see young men simply doing a job and can't even contemplate how anyone can liken them with the IRA or any Loyalist grouping for that matter. No doubt mistakes were made by the British army but IMO they were left with very little choice. One community actively seeked to murder them, one community treated them as their own and even avenged their deaths. Its inevitable that human nature would ensure one side were treated differently. Surely you can see why situations developed and understand why the Army would of been so harsh on your community.

Violence usually comes from somewhere and on both sides of the divide we all had our reasons for doing what we did. whether we can ever justify those reasons to one another is one thing but throwing mud back and forth won't help us move away from the past. I will always see the IRA as a force that tried to remove Britain from N.Ireland and as such they tried to remove British people and relating to that it meant that Protestants were mostly targetted. Protestants felt targetted by the IRA. Trying to convince us otherwise won't happen ever. Now republicans can either accept our views on it, or they can carry on rubbing salt in wounds by insisting we were never the intended targets.

That said many Loyalists are quick to label the IRA as sectarian murderers etc but then quietly condone what Loyalists did in response. This is simply hypocritical. My view is that we were at war and both sides carried out many evil acts and both sides targetted innocent people.

[Shades40]

setanta said:

Blue Angel and Harry excellent posts.

X2

[Jim]

harry said:

Republicans viewed soldiers as an occupying force and as such label them legitimate targets. We see young men simply doing a job and can't even contemplate how anyone can liken them with the IRA or any Loyalist grouping for that matter. No doubt mistakes were made by the British army but IMO they were left with very little choice. One community actively seeked to murder them, one community treated them as their own and even avenged their deaths. Its inevitable that human nature would ensure one side were treated differently. Surely you can see why situations developed and understand why the Army would of been so harsh on your community.

Violence usually comes from somewhere and on both sides of the divide we all had our reasons for doing what we did. whether we can ever justify those reasons to one another is one thing but throwing mud back and forth won't help us move away from the past. I will always see the IRA as a force that tried to remove Britain from N.Ireland and as such they tried to remove British people and relating to that it meant that Protestants were mostly targetted. Protestants felt targetted by the IRA. Trying to convince us otherwise won't happen ever. Now republicans can either accept our views on it, or they can carry on rubbing salt in wounds by insisting we were never the intended targets.

That said many Loyalists are quick to label the IRA as sectarian murderers etc but then quietly condone what Loyalists did in response. This is simply hypocritical. My view is that we were at war and both sides carried out many evil acts and both sides targetted innocent people.

I do understand that but it wasnt those 18 year olds on the street making the decisions it was the top brass that would have well known the situation here and monitored it for years. I will always see the British army as an occupying force and the provisionals the ones fighting that occupation for what has been a republican goal long before the border came into place, an all ireland republic. I dont see the IRA as secterian in principle, I dont believe anything sanctioned by the Army council was in the same mentality as loyalist paramilitaries (particularly the UFF/UDA) in either reason for existance or when killing civilians, most IRA targets I know of where on a military or economic basis, not the idea to go out and kill as many protestants as possible (omagh excluded they are not the provisionals and i dont agree with their politics either), I do believe that how many protestants killed wasnt an issue to some bombers, if it happened then it happened, but they didnt go out to intentionally do it, there where other motivations. They didnt wake up one morning, brush their teeth then ask themselves how many people they can blow up today and no IRA-men I know of or have met has that type of mentality.

Obviously yourself and Wasp will disagree with me there but thats how it is, a lot of people would disagree.

I dont know how I see loyalist paramilitaries anymore, I've read a fair bit about them in books over the past two months, watched interviews, read articles, went through the entire PUP website.

Neither side could win a war so complicated, so its not about rubbing salts and blaming people there has been enough blaming. I could sit here and go through UFF murders and point fingers all day, but its absolutely pointless. You could go through every IRA murder and it would be equally pointless.

The only thing I can say is the British army wasnt a product of the troubles, in my opinion it was an outside force there to back up a sectarian police force, thats when they became targets when you look at history. Before internment the IRA and the British army held an uneasy understanding and it was loyalists that where suspicious.

[Wasp]

The reality is the IRA believed it was right in attacking British forces and loyalist paramilitaries - for us to suddenly pretend otherwise retroactively may make you feel better but it is in intellectually and morally dishonest.

Again brushing aside what I said, I never mentioned loyalist paramilitaries or security forces, I said ordinary Protestant civillians.