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Post by Wasp on Sept 5, 2007 16:28:08 GMT
I thought I did answer it.
No I would prefer sinn fein to admit the part they played in the sectarian war against Protestants along with the ira. I want them to be genuine and genuinely condemn the loss of life that they caused rather than saying it was wrong etc. I want them to stop the double standards and really mean what they claim.
Oh I am sure you will do, I am surprized you haven't heard already or maybe this is another part the ira don't want known. Pity Chesney wasn't alive, you could have asked him about his wee maps of where to bomb and where not to bomb.
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Post by Jim on Sept 5, 2007 18:08:11 GMT
For fuck sake I pressed modify on your post again, Setenta take me off admin please thats annoying the piss out of me. Restored your post.
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Er, thats nothing to do with my logic. I dont see anything wrong with the British army managing to kill a volunteer who is on active service, thats war, both are soldiers in a war. stone throwers and joyriders are not the IRA, be realistic here.
I am in a position to talk about it, anyone whos family got bad treatment by the RUC down the years is in a position to talk about it.
Are you serious? The kids shot in Ballymurphy for being in the wrong place? Most of those numbers wherent IRA. My hard facts make you out to support state murder.
I suppose thats why the British government for years tried to cover up their tracks, they where only covering their good intentions wherent they!! Fuck sake Wasp, listen to yourself. Your talking as if they have halos around their heads and you've always denied collusion in face of facts from your own government and from the new institutions set up in your own state to investigate it an even from ex-RUC themselves.
I'd hardly call authors like John Stalker (ex Deputy Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police) and Peter Taylor fantasy writers.
How would you plant it in the evening when the UDA would be guarding the place in full force?
You can believe what you want mate, you only believe what you want to believe, there is no other reason for me to even talk about it its like talking to a brick wall.
No, interpretations of it will be on various websites, and likewise for republican websites.
I call it shocking, so re-answering the question, condemned.
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Post by Wasp on Sept 5, 2007 21:51:08 GMT
Jim I do not believe for a second the ira were targetting the uda, you failed to answer my question on how were they meant to plant a bomb undettected in a fish shop with only one side of the counter that they could place it in??
I haven't denied collusion in fae of FACTS, there is no FACTS forme to deny. Special branch officers even asked for charges to be brought against them if there was factual evidence. Now I can never say never but collusion is simply republican propaganda to take the bad look off them. If there was any collusion to kill a Catholic then I condemn it, but get real with all the intelligence from high ranking ira spies then why were more ira members not targeted along with there cohorts?
The RUC killed 55 people, compare that with the ira, get real. On the stonethrowers etc many threw petrol bombs and tried to kill and maim so why shouldn't they deserve to be shot if you think a policeman using a baton deserves to be shot?
I may be like talking to a brick wall but you seem to be avoiding my points on the shankhill bomb. An 11 second fuse doesn't give much time for a bomb to go off hours later as suggested by some, nor does it give much time as claimed by Kelly that they would have shouted a warning as they ran off. If you don't know the facts then don't try and make out you do to try to excuse the ira bomb as some kind of accident. Would an accident have a 11 second fuse allowing for 11 seconds to clear the shop. This was no accident and the results were planned and intended. The only 'accident' was that the two bastards who planted it didn't have time to run as it went off prematurely.
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Post by Wasp on Sept 5, 2007 21:55:45 GMT
Setanta wrote 'If they had managed to successfully complete that bomb run and get Adair and his cronies in the middle of the night when there was no one on the streets, then plenty more lives would have been saved. but it went wrong and innocents were killed but it was an accident.' and Jim you have wrote something similar about this. What about the 11 second fuse, why did Kelly claim they would have shouted a warning as they ran off which would have allowed a whole 11 seconds to clear the shop.
So Setanta on these facts do you and Jim condemn the Shankhill bombing or not?
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Post by Harry on Sept 6, 2007 9:51:23 GMT
Setanta where do you get your facts?? The only REAL and TRUE fact is that the IRA placed a bomb and murdered innocent people. You or anyone else can bum and blow about who it was intended for and when it should of went off etc but regardless the bombers and those who sanctioned it knew that innocent people would be killed. FACT
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Post by Shades40 on Sept 6, 2007 12:59:44 GMT
If you think about it if the IRA plan had of went to plan the only people killed would have been the hierarchy of the UDA/UFF and workers in the shop (who in some part must of knew who was using their shop above). But bombs are always a risky, careless and sometimes barbaric form of attack as the actual outcome proved.
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Post by Wasp on Sept 6, 2007 15:10:59 GMT
Why would that be?]
Err these are not facts, maybe the alledged uda meeting was but the rest wasn't. The bomb did go off early but it only had an 11 second fuse when detonated so explain that fact?
That's the easy way out, you have stated whatever you say I won't be pacified. Now please deal with the facts I stated and why would Kelly say he would have shouted a warning concerning the 11 second fuse?? Does 11 seconds last hours till evening or midnight or does it last 11 seconds. Why are you avoiding these facts, can you not bring yourself to condemn a bomb which killed innocent people including children that had an 11 SECOND FUSE. Please explain.
Well he along with others had there maps showing the areas that were not to be bombed or touched. The green areas were those which weren't to be touched but the orange ones were. AND what do you think the orange represents?
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Post by Wasp on Sept 6, 2007 15:14:51 GMT
If you think about it if the IRA plan had of went to plan the only people killed would have been the hierarchy of the UDA/UFF and workers in the shop (who in some part must of knew who was using their shop above). But bombs are always a risky, careless and sometimes barbaric form of attack as the actual outcome proved. BULLSHIT Shades and you know it. Explain the 11 SECOND fuse part to me. Does 11 seconds give time to clear a busy shop in a busy afternoon? Explain why Kelly said he would have shouted a warning when running off if the bomb was intended to kill the uda members that evening? Come on explain. The double standards and refusal to accept facts from republicans here is unbelievable while trying to make excuses for cowardly murdering bastards who knew what the result of the bomb would be given the FACT that it only had an 11 SECOND FUSE FFS.  |
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Post by Wasp on Sept 6, 2007 15:15:40 GMT
actually because the doors of the shop were open and the bomb was designed to collapse the building, when the bombers shouted "RUN" it was anticipated that everyone would run out and get out the open doors, and the UDA upstairs killed. Overly simplistic plan I know. again bullshit. How would 11 seconds clear a shop?  ?? |
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Post by Shades40 on Sept 6, 2007 18:05:55 GMT
Didn't know about the 11 second fuse but if the shop was like most butchers shops with just a serving counter with stock behind it then a shop could be cleared in 11 seconds (also from the aftermath pics it looked like a small shop)with customers probably catching one of the bombers in the rush out. Not trying to excuse anybody here, just discussing the event, if the IRA wanted to kill lots of people on the Shankill why go to the bother of sending 2 men in broad daylight to place a bomb when they could have planted a massive one in the middle of the night risking no personal.
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Post by Wasp on Sept 6, 2007 20:00:00 GMT
Fair enough Are you being serious that a shop could be cleared in 11 seconds? What about those behind the counter, what about the confusion and panic, what about people wandering is this for real etc etc??? 2 minutes would hardly have been enough time nevermind 11 SECONDS. aLSO WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO JUST MANAGED TO GET OUTSIDE THE DOOR?? Would they also not at the very least been injured. I would lovew to see you get out of a shop within 11 seconds if someone shouted bomb, especially if you had kids with you. First of all you are contradicting yourself, most ira bombs in towns were in daylight, busy with shoopers so that maximum death and injury was caused. Why would they go into a busy shop with a bomb with an 11 second fuse if the bomb was intended for the uda only and not civillians. If you are not trying to defend or excuse anyone I wouldn't like to hear what you have to say if you were. Of all people posting on this I am most surprized at your replies. |
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Post by Wasp on Sept 7, 2007 16:41:44 GMT
Some accident so you would be happy with an accident being explained if someone planted a bomb with your family inside and they were only given 11 seconds to get out?? Absolutely disgusting that you cannot bring yourself to condemn such an outrage. Funny you first claimed it was meant for that evening but it went off early, now with the 11 second fuse you still see it as an accident. But I am glad yopu think if you were that bastard Kelly that you would be content with giving people some of whom who had kids 11 SECONDS to get away from a shop because there is no aisles in it. Have you even thought about the initial reaction of people, the confusion etc when bomb is shouted. Have you ever been in a bomb scare that turned out to be false, have you ever been in a bomb scare that turned out to be real???
The result of ira daytime bombs in busy streets etc are there for all to see and Kelly and co knew 11 SECONDS would be no-time at all for everyone to get out. Maybe if you experienced sucjh an outrage you might not be so quick to defend bastards like Kelly. BTW don't even think about asking Unionists to condemn anything the British done, don't condemn there answers, don't have a problem of what they supported etc because you along with others need to take a long hard look at yourselves before accusing the security forces or anyone else of any wrongdoing.
BTW the maps are very true and very real, can't wait for the proof to come out and believe me when those involved can get round the British trying to save the catholic church from further embarrassement then you will see this is no made up story. Have you ever sat and looked at the real campaign the ira were involved in rather than the fantasy one that matches the words in rebel songs???
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Post by Harry on Sept 8, 2007 8:18:14 GMT
WASP you condemn all murders etc so i totally understand your pursuit for some sort of condemnation from Republicans on acts like the Shankill etc but you won't get it. You'll get the the lame, pathetic excuses you are getting now and thats the way it will stay from them. I know what the Shankill was about and no matter what any republican, be it Kelly himself, tries to tell me, it was nothing other than sectarian murder. Its the same way i wouldn't condemn Loyalist acts because we were simply returning the serve. Sure i regret innocents were killed and we carried out many and many sectarian murders but it was a war and people die in war, shame many more IRA men weren't put to the sword.
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Post by Wasp on Sept 8, 2007 19:38:06 GMT
WASP you condemn all murders etc so i totally understand your pursuit for some sort of condemnation from Republicans on acts like the Shankill etc but you won't get it. You'll get the the lame, pathetic excuses you are getting now and thats the way it will stay from them. I know what the Shankill was about and no matter what any republican, be it Kelly himself, tries to tell me, it was nothing other than sectarian murder. Its the same way i wouldn't condemn Loyalist acts because we were simply returning the serve. Sure i regret innocents were killed and we carried out many and many sectarian murders but it was a war and people die in war, shame many more IRA men weren't put to the sword. Fair enough Harry. One thing I have learned more about is loyalsit reaction to republican violence etc. Those involved or who supported it saw it as the only way to hit back. I can understand the frustration and lack of response from the security forces incase they upset the republican bandwagon. But it is not so much that I am pursuing condemnation etc, I am showing them, that is to say those who supported and can't condem such mindless acts of sectarian violence for what they really are like behind the mask of friendship/outreach and the 'we are the victims' role that they try to play. We have all this talk from them about the big bad Unionists/British/loyalists etc where people like us are grilled and questioned about this and that where we are always in the wrong, but when we put the shoe on the other foot then it is a different story. IMO republicans in general don't like it one bit, maybe it is because the truth hurts or they do not want to face the truth which is something I am always told by republicans.  There are those who like to point the finger at those they view as sectarian bigots etc such as some members on Calton or the blue bros here, they are entitled to that opinion but funny they can't bring themselves to condemn a sectarian outrage. IMO the deep seeded hatred is there for all to see. AN 11 SECOND FUSE SAYS IT ALL. Harry maybe you should stop admitting loyalist involvement in sectarian murders, republicans still deny the ira campaign was sectarian so why should loyalsists admit it. |
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Post by Blue Angel on Sept 10, 2007 9:45:00 GMT
There seems to be a desire there to perpetuate the old mythical belief that the IRA/repubicanism generally are controlled via the Vatican when in fact the reality is republicanism and the church have generally had a fairly tense and antagonistic relation with each other. The attempt to drag the the folk devil of the 'beast of rome' in here in this thread seems forced to say the least. WASP you have accused republicans who believe the british security forces were directing terrorism and were active in collusion as living in fantasy universes despite the fact that they have been able to present some evidence to back those claims. Should not the same criteria apply to yourself when we start hearing about these 'maps' and how the British govt. does not want to emberass the Catholic Church
The bomb in question here was stupid and the planning ill-conceived. And yes NO shop anywhere could be cleared in 11 seconds. I run shops for a living and trying to get customers to leave even during a fire drill or real fire can take up to two minutes on occassion. That been said it is fruitless to engage in the great Irish game of 'whataboutery'.
As to some been called sectarian bigots here, since it is the image those cited choose to consistently present and since that is all we have to go on we assume based on comments made that they are indeed bigots. Should I wander through the forum making generalised remarks aobut all protestants been brainwashed and hate-filled i am sure I would rightfully get a tongue-lashing...
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