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Post by An Fear Dubh on Aug 28, 2007 10:15:12 GMT
You seem to have a mixed logic Harry. How is the onus on SF to end the actions of people who are not members of SF? But you can not stretch the same logic to put the onus on Ballymena Utd to confront sectarianism at local matches, you would rather like SF have been doing deny it exists.
It seems you are politically closer to SF than you might suspect.
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Post by Harry on Aug 28, 2007 10:20:50 GMT
You seem to have a mixed logic Harry. How is the onus on SF to end the actions of people who are not members of SF? But you can not stretch the same logic to put the onus on Ballymena Utd to confront sectarianism at local matches, you would rather like SF have been doing deny it exists. It seems you are politically closer to SF than you might suspect. AFD a Protestant home has been attacked, the peelers have been and confirmed it, SF have condemned it, what more proof do YOU need it happened??? Thats the difference, there is no doubt that a sectarian act has happened here. The onus is on SF because they will hold more sway in this area than any Unionist party. Twisted logic, what are you on about mate, why would you seek to link this and debating speculated sectarian chanting?? |
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Post by Harry on Aug 28, 2007 10:25:17 GMT
Harry you wanted it and you got it. How about it being recipriocated by Unionist Politicions in Ballymena and how about those same Unionist Politicions joining in the community meetings. That might actually acheive something! real results imagine that! Instead of just saying that Sinn Féin should give peoples names to the PSNI. That would require enough evidence to support a conviction. If Sinn Féin could actually provide that evidence then there'd be accusations of trying to subvert the authority of the PSNI and of trying to police Republican areas from Unionists like Davey Tweed and WASP on here., and demands that the DUP withdraw from power sharing because Sinn Féin still haven't respected the rule of law , BLAH BLAH BLAH they're so predictable................... so would you rather see real results or play political games? No arguements from me about Unionists joining in with these groups. I've no problems slating Unionists regarding their lack of action on the whole sectarian problems within the town. In fact we are good at condemning things without any real substance or actions to back up the words. Results are what i want. |
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Post by An Fear Dubh on Aug 28, 2007 11:26:47 GMT
I am not denying that sectarianism exists everywhere. I have no doubt that a sectarian attack took place. I condemn such attacks openly and without reservation, no matter from where they originate from. I do not qualify or excuse sectarianism at any level.
I do not see any evidence that a member of Sinn Féin was involved in this attack. Yes, it most likely was someone from the Nationalist community. They might not be SF supports, but at this stage we do not know. I accept that both communities have their share of morons, vandals and thugs, but I want to educate the morons, punish the vandals, and isolate the thugs from my community.
So there is no doubt that a sectarian attack occurred the doubt is that Sinn Féin was responsible.
You have no problem (and I agree with you) that SF have an onus to actively work towards stopping such attacks. And as Setanta has pointed out they are, I agree they seem to be slow in this area.
But I am highlighting your inability to apply the same logic to Ballymena Utd, that you have applied to SF. Ballymena Utd are from the same area as this attack happened, Ballymena, they want the support (they say) of the whole community not just one section. The onus is not on SF alone both communities need to adopt a pro-active approach to confront Sectarianism. There is an onus on Ballymena Utd rather than to deny and defend against false accusations of sectarianism to adopt a pro-active role in the Ballymena community to activate some public campaign to show that under no circumstances is any form of sectarianism allowed or tolerated by Ballymena Utd. Yes, SF will have a greater impact on people from the nationalist community, unionist politicians, parties, need to become more active in this area also, to have a greater effect on the unionist community. But also other groups from the area need to be pro-active in tackling sectarianism. Be it Ballymena Utd, the local GAA, the Churches, the Orange Order everyone has an onus and a role to play, to highlight one political party is to point score and deny the real problem exists within the whole community and this one attack is just a symptom of the issues, and every sectarian act is linked, even the ones that can not be found to be true.
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Post by Wasp on Aug 28, 2007 16:39:21 GMT
i
Setanta they are not blaming sinn fein for everything, I do not believe I said that so please try not to exaggerate what I said.
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Post by Wasp on Aug 28, 2007 21:07:21 GMT
I am all for an end to this madness with peoples homes being attacked simply because they are Protestant or Catholic. The problem with Unionists in general in the Ballymena area is that they do not trust sinn fein and see it as sinn fein creating, shit stirring and maintaining devisions on one hand then trying to look the good guys on the other. They can't have it both ways.
For starters even though I am deeply suspicious of sinn feins motives anbd know they all to often do the opposite of what they claim etc, I have welcomed at times various moves by sinn fein. But all to often they do something else with the opposite effect. If sinn fein provided evidence that helped catch those involved in such attacks then that IMO would be a major step and I for one would fully welcome it,so I don't see why you said I wouldn't.
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Post by Shades40 on Aug 29, 2007 12:42:09 GMT
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Aug 29, 2007 13:09:31 GMT
I have no doubt that if the protestants in duncleg went to sinn fein the attacks would stop immeditually, atleast they would until sinn fein need alittle extra media coverage. It still surprizes me that republicans can't seem understand why we don't trust sinn fein and why it will take decades to change that point of few, if even sinn fein were really genuine about changing that viewpoint in the first place
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Aug 29, 2007 13:47:43 GMT
based on 30 years of conflict and past experince
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Aug 29, 2007 14:14:42 GMT
you might as well ask wether or not i trust the government and the answer would be no
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Post by Wasp on Aug 29, 2007 20:13:37 GMT
Considering what sinn fein supported and had members involved in can you really blame us? Sinn fein whether you admit it or not were part of the sectarian violence which was aimed at he Protestant/Unionist community. Right from supporters, to terrorists to the very top of the ira sinn fein were involved, so there is not point any republican wandering why Unionists like myself think like that. I do not blame sinn fein at present for everything that republicans do but they certainly play there part in alot of it.
Again you are twisting things around to suit the old republican agenda. For starters if republicans wanted all of a sudden to march through a 100% Unionist area then I would be against it in the sameway I would not want the OO to all of a sudden march up the falls. If republican marchers did parade in my area then I would not be against it, I wouldn't like it but I would accept this is an annual march and I would simply close my windows, if they were carrying banners of ira terrorists then I would complain and only then.
It would be a start if sinn fein stopped the double standards and opposing anything Unionist or loyalist. There hatred is there for all to see, so causing trouble etc and then acting as peacemaker doesn't wash with me or the vast majority of Unionists in the Ballymena area. IMO sinn fein are only acting out a stratedgy and this is part of it, there concern for Protestants is non-existant as proved time and time again.
Tweed etc have nothing to match, they are not doing enough but they certainly have nothing to match unless of course you want them to him to stir up trouble at every move then play the peace maker after causing alot of shit.
Hang on a second who said I do not demand the same and more off those who are meant to represent my community. You are on calton enough to know that I do and not just on the internet either.
Setanta when will you understand that sinn fein have shit stirred, lied, maintained and created tensions. Harry who you respect and I have told you often enough but you still take the sinn fein sermon instead of listening to real people on the ground. I don't expect you to believe me as I am too outspoken but you could at least show Harry some respect by not brushing aside what he has said of sinn fein in Ballymena. As things stand I will be the next pope before I goto sinn fein but I will listen to members as individuals such as yourself.
No need to apologise, just acknowledgement mate but I appreciate ayour apology all the same.
No I don't, as you know I am against sinn fein in government as things stand, for me it all happened to quickly under pressure. But IMO if sinn fein REALLY were genuine and genuinely called for a stop to these attacks without the double standards then even harderline Unionists like myself would welcome it, maybe not overnight but I would eventually. As I have said sinn fein were a big part in the killing machine of the ira, both were interlinked so you cannot be surprized or confused at suspician being constantly pointed at sinn fein especially with what they are currently doing now along with 'we are the good guys' statedgy.
I really do not know what you mean?
In theory yes of course and I agree but in practice sinn fein are doing the opposite.
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Post by He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness on Aug 30, 2007 17:55:46 GMT
So you don't trust anyone at all? No state agency or independent body at all? No evidence, proof or facts are needed? No counter point will be considered? Even if this flies in the face of the facts? Do you think any agency, business, government or law inforcement agency could function if they applied the same criteria to their agendas as you do? I guess thats the advantage of being a private citzen rather then a member of the police or government, is the fact that i can hold an opinion of my own. Do i believe that the securty forces can be aware of information and not act upon it, well how long was donalson spy for? of course i belive it |
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Post by Wasp on Aug 30, 2007 20:10:03 GMT
Setanta on Tweed if he done that then he is a complete wanker and TBH I know very little of him. Now that I know that if it's true I want fuck all to do with him. Unless of course he gives a complete apology and shows true remorse at what he did to those trying to attend mass. The high kirk spirit is the right one.
NO SINN FEIN ORAGNISED PROTESTS ANYWHERE JUSTIFY PEOPLE BEING SPAT AT WHILE TRYING TO ATTEND THEIR CHURCH. DISGUSTING AND MUST BE CONDEMNED.
I am going to try and look into this further with those I am involved with to see if I in anyway can hear the whole story from both sides and more importantly to see if he truly regrets his actions, that is if what you are saying is true.
Those Protestants you engage with in your outreach programme may differ from what I am saying but all I am hearing on the street is what I have said about sinn fein carrybing out there stratedgy. At the end of the day IMO sinn fein are trying (unsucessfully) to win over Protestants/unionists in the hope we will support there dream of a U.Ireland in 2016. Then if that is achieved (which it won't be) Protestants and there culture will be the least of sinn feins concerns.
BTW what way do you think sinn fein and there supporters will react if they don't achieve a UI by 2016???
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Post by Blue Angel on Aug 30, 2007 22:26:00 GMT
Easter Rising 2 - the sequel - coming soon to St. Stephen's Green and Mount Street Bridge -bigger, better, a fun day out for all the family - I'm sorry guys I'm pissed here on white russians and vodka and couldn't help it  |
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Post by Jim on Aug 31, 2007 6:59:28 GMT
Setanta on Tweed if he done that then he is a complete wanker and TBH I know very little of him. Now that I know that if it's true I want fuck all to do with him. Unless of course he gives a complete apology and shows true remorse at what he did to those trying to attend mass. The high kirk spirit is the right one. NO SINN FEIN ORAGNISED PROTESTS ANYWHERE JUSTIFY PEOPLE BEING SPAT AT WHILE TRYING TO ATTEND THEIR CHURCH. DISGUSTING AND MUST BE CONDEMNED. I am going to try and look into this further with those I am involved with to see if I in anyway can hear the whole story from both sides and more importantly to see if he truly regrets his actions, that is if what you are saying is true. Those Protestants you engage with in your outreach programme may differ from what I am saying but all I am hearing on the street is what I have said about sinn fein carrybing out there stratedgy. At the end of the day IMO sinn fein are trying (unsucessfully) to win over Protestants/unionists in the hope we will support there dream of a U.Ireland in 2016. Then if that is achieved (which it won't be) Protestants and there culture will be the least of sinn feins concerns. BTW what way do you think sinn fein and there supporters will react if they don't achieve a UI by 2016??? I dont think it will happen by 2016 so I'm not worried. You can bet Sinn Fein will be concerned, when a united Ireland comes around unionists will most likely be the biggest contenders for coalition partners in government, well, thats if unionists can stay united for more than a short period of time before they start squabbling within as usual. I think unionists should be focusing themselves on making sure the culture stays alive, united ireland or not, and not looking for someone to point the finger at. unionism is getting more fractured day by day, year by year, and its no ones fault but the unionist leaders and ultimately, stupid voters that would vote or a donkey if it said "DUP". Seriously, anyone that voted for the DUP expecting them not to go into government is an arse, and the opposition to the DUP dont know what they want, they have no alternatives. none. Nationalists and Republicans have a clear leadership, two parties to vote for that know what they are doing, and a clear agenda at the end of the day, those are factors for success and its up to unionists to sort themselves out mate if they want a hope of staying in the union. |
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