SECTARIAN GAA

[Jim]

I think its interesting that the sport is starting to be played in England, by English kids in English schools, its starting to take away an element of irish nationalism from the sport and slowly growing (although i do admit not a lot of schools in england bother with it yet, it will always be behind rugby and football), surely that would be reason enough to have some protestant schools start to titter it in through a cross community basis, letting the barriers drop and etc.

[An Fear Dubh]

Meanwhile in soccer Linfield manager has called on the football bosses to weed out sectarianism in Irish League football. After sectarian abuse hurled at Catholic players.
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/local/article2861823.ece
And Ballymena Utd are not happy that David made it so public!!

[Harry]

I wasn't at the match but find it complete bullshit that the BUFC supporters would participate in Sectarian abuse of any team. I've followed BUFC to every ground in the Irish league and never came across any sectarian chants from BUFC fans. Its just not the done thing among BUFC fans and our own team is made up of many many Catholics and thats the way it has been for years and years. Whatever trouble Ballymena has as a town itself it doesn't infiltrate the BUFC support. Hopefully Blueman or Bluedog will of been at the match and can give their views as Linfield fans.

A family member follows Ballymena everywhere and i've been given a complete account of what went on. Steven Douglas who plays for Linfield received alot of abuse but just typical football abuse, he's from Harryville so thats why he gets the stick. Its water off a ducks back to him and he thrives on it, he's a good friend of mine and calls into the pubs round Harryville all the time and the banter and abuse continues and he gives as good as he gets. David Jeffrey received lots of personal abuse and some of it quite nasty as far as i'm concerned. Apparently his wife has ran off with another man so the BUFC were giving him dogs abuse about it 'where's your wife'? 'who's riding her now'? etc etc. I mean i don't think this is right at all and he shouldn't be subjected to this but thats the nature of football fans. We also used to taunt Linfield fans about being bigots and they would sing about a big chapel in your town etc.

I need to confirm this but on the ILF, posters from all clubs have given their support to Ballymena fans and even Linfield fans at the match have said they heard no sectarian chanting at all. This is from the local Ballymena times as this has really upset alot of people in the town.

Your view: Fans hit out at Linfield manager's claims



Linfield manager David Jeffrey has angered Ballymena fans with his comments.


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View GalleryANGRY Ballymena United supporters deluged the Newsletter with letters of complaint following an article in the Monday edition of the paper, in which Linfield manager David Jeffrey alleged that United supporters had chanted sectarian abuse at Linfield players during Saturday's CIS Cup match at Windsor Park.
Ballymena fans were also angry that the Newsletter article had not afforded the Showgrounds club the opportunity to respond to the accusation.
Here is a selection of the letters. You can also comment on this story.


Comments are unfounded
It is with great disgust that I read the article printed in the News Letter regarding comments from David Jeffrey as a result of what he 'heard' at the Linfield v Ballymena match on Saturday past.
I find it strange that a local paper printed such a report, on unfounded claims. Interesting to see that, as usual, local media looks at the smaller picture (i.e. anything that Glentoran or Linfield say is gospel), and didn't take the opportunity to ask anyone else?
One look on the Irish League forums will show that fans (both Ballymena, and more importantly to you, Linfield) never sang nor heard a thing.
Now why would Linfield fans say they haven't heard a thing if it 'definitely happened' according to Jeffrey?
Because they know it wasn't true, and because they see yet another example of injustice for a local football team's supporters.
I would be interested to see how quick you would be to cover the fact that the IFA WON'T take any action against Ballymena as nothing happened?
Iain Black, (address supplied)


Allegations not only defamatory but are highly damaging
I wish to complain in the strongest terms about the publication of a News Letter article containing claims by the Linfield manager David Jeffrey, a man I used to have some respect for but who has now made outrageous and defamatory allegations about Ballymena United supporters in attendance at the game at Windsor Park on Saturday last.
I was present in the section of the ground where the Ballymena fans were sitting and I can assure you I did not hear a single sectarian comment or chant at any stage during the game, before it or at the end of it.
The article has allowed Mr Jeffrey to make these potentially highly damaging accusations without verifying the facts.
I am not connected to Ballymena United Football Club, but I would expect the club to take action against this article.
I believe several club directors were also present and can confirm the absurdity of Mr Jeffrey's comments.
K Armstrong, Co. Antrim


Absence of view from Sky Blue supporters was disappointing
I have always felt that your paper has responsibly reported on various issues.
Even though the newspaper has a mainly unionist following I have been pleased in the way the news in your columns has been reported.
I am a Ballymena United supporter, have been for 10 years and will continue to support this club.
Linfield manager David Jeffrey has well documented the abuse he receives from Ballymena United supporters, but this allegation he has made is nothing short of a farce.
I was at Windsor Park on Saturday, in the North Stand with Ballymena United fans and I am amazed Mr Jeffrey claims to have heard what he has put on record as having heard.
There most definitely were no sectarian chants from Ballymena supporters, nor, might I add, from Linfield supporters.
Ballymena supporters did at one stage, however, taunt Linfield fans with chants of "you are nothing but bigots" in jest of Linfield's poor reputation in this area.
Much the same as Linfield fans have for numerous years taunted the Ballymena United supporters.
I understand your paper was printing what Mr Jeffrey was placing on record, but what truly disappoints me is the fact that with such a clearly controversial headline, it was printed without any mention of a Ballymena response nor was it clear if Ballymena United had been given the option of it.
It is fair to say that mud sticks and the years of work by our club and our managers and players of various religions and political backgrounds has just been undone thanks to fabrications from Mr Jeffrey.
David Strahan (address supplied)


Throw enough mud and some of it will stick
It is with disgust that I read the News Letter report of August 13 regarding comments by Linfield manager David Jeffrey about Ballymena United fans.
Even though it is stated that it is "alleged", what evidence other than the word of David Jeffrey is there that the sectarian abuse took place? Ballymena United was given no right of reply or denial in the article and what was written will be taken as read by some.
If you throw enough mud, some of it will stick etc.
As a Ballymena United fan who was present at the game, I can categorically deny that any such sectarian chanting took place.
The Ballymena United manager did not hear it, none of the Ballymena players heard nor did any of the board members of Ballymena United FC, who were present among the small contingent of 150 United fans in the North Stand.
Jonny Irwin (full address submitted)


Jeffrey stirring up nonsense
I have just read your story (News Letter August 13) about the sectarian singing that was reported as coming from the Ballymena United fans on Saturday.
I am a neutral (originally from Scotland) and was at Windsor Park for the game on Saturday in amongst the Ballymena fans.
The Ballymena fans did give David Jeffrey a hard time personally.
However, there was no sectarian singing at all that I heard.
There was good fun and most of the Ballymena songs were having a laugh at themselves – no-one else.
I think Mr Jeffrey may have been a bit bitter about the abuse he was taking personally.
He should be carpeted for stirring up this nonsense.
Kenny Tweedie, Carrickfergus


Simply disgusted
As a lifelong Ballymena United fan I would like to express my disgust at a report in the News Letter on August 13.
I was present at the match and there were absolutely no sectarian remarks or chants made by our supporters .
David Jeffrey seems to be the only man who has heard anything like this.
I have been on internet forums today and even Linfield fans are saying that this simply did not happen.
Iain Cameron (Seven Towers Supporters' Club)

[Harry]

DJ has opened a can of worms and with more and more people dismissing his claims he's looking more isolated. I'm sure this hasn't helped his own supporters and possibly DJ is ok with it when its Linfield fans? The next time the small minority of Linfield fans step out of line, DJ has set his stall out........?

Ballymena hit back at Jeffrey

David Jeffrey's side beat Ballymena 5-1 at Windsor Park
Ballymena United have blasted Linfield boss David Jeffrey after he claimed that some United fans hurled sectarian abuse at members of his team.
The Braidmen are investigating the claims made after the CIS Cup game but they say Jeffrey was "unprofessional" by making his allegations in the media.

They added that Jeffrey did not have "the courtesy of making our club aware of his unsubstantiated allegations".

Ballymena want the IFA to look into the abuse claims made by Jeffrey.

Speaking on BBC Radio Ulster's Talkback programme, Ballymena manager Tommy Wright said initial contacts with his side's coaches, players and officials, some of whom were seated in the North Stand, had failed to substantiate the allegations made by the Blues manager.

Jeffrey told Monday's News Letter: "I can handle personal abuse, but I am very angry and annoyed at the sectarian chanting that went on."

The Ballymena board has issued a strong statement following Jeffrey's comments.

"At the conclusion of enquiries, the club will be making a detailed statement and will be inviting the IFA to carry out an investigation into the matter," they said.

"However, at this period the club would like to express its disappointment at how this matter has been dealt with by Mr Jeffrey.

"The appropiate course of action would have been for him to approach the Board of Directors, who should have contacted our club to investigate the matter.

[An Fear Dubh]

Now I think you defense of Ballymena Utd fans is fair enough.

But let us see if the posters from unionist members here into this thread react in the same way as they have done with the GAA.

Already Harry your first reaction is to deny it exists, you are denying that sectarian abuse is an issue in soccer here, especially in Ballymena. David Jeffery is a prominent Orange Order member and it seems odd that he would make such a thing up, and then go public with it, as everyone was there (and it is more than two people) would be able to know the truth. But you can hardly expect me to take the word of the 'Blues Brothers' when it comes to accusations of sectarian chanting against Catholics!! Sure we read their abuse against Catholics in this forum on a regular basis!! As someone who worked in the media I can tell you that letter pages can be and are contrived. In other words an editor can assign a journalist the job of making up letters. Surely DJ did the correct thing by going public? These are not issues that 'officials' should be allowed hide behind closed doors, be they GAA officials or Ballymena Utd officials. I do not recall one GAA official attempting to dismiss Darren Grahame's claims that he was subjected to sectarian abuse. The closest we got was Darren saying that he was convinced the ref heard the abuse and did nothing. And while Ballymena are entitled to say that after an investigation they found no evidence, they should not be criticizing DJ for going public. And I would question how such an investigation was concluded so quickly, it seems like their minds we made up before they investigated.

[An Fear Dubh]

Maybe I should have started a thread 'Sectarian Ballymena Utd' and then we could have concluded that it was not but maybe some supporters were behind the times.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

Now I think you defense of Ballymena Utd fans is fair enough.

But let us see if the posters from unionist members here into this thread react in the same way as they have done with the GAA.

Already Harry your first reaction is to deny it exists, you are denying that sectarian abuse is an issue in soccer here, especially in Ballymena. David Jeffery is a prominent Orange Order member and it seems odd that he would make such a thing up, and then go public with it, as everyone was there (and it is more than two people) would be able to know the truth. But you can hardly expect me to take the word of the 'Blues Brothers' when it comes to accusations of sectarian chanting against Catholics!! Sure we read their abuse against Catholics in this forum on a regular basis!! As someone who worked in the media I can tell you that letter pages can be and are contrived. In other words an editor can assign a journalist the job of making up letters. Surely DJ did the correct thing by going public? These are not issues that 'officials' should be allowed hide behind closed doors, be they GAA officials or Ballymena Utd officials. I do not recall one GAA official attempting to dismiss Darren Grahame's claims that he was subjected to sectarian abuse. The closest we got was Darren saying that he was convinced the ref heard the abuse and did nothing. And while Ballymena are entitled to say that after an investigation they found no evidence, they should not be criticizing DJ for going public. And I would question how such an investigation was concluded so quickly, it seems like their minds we made up before they investigated.

Where have i denied that Sectarianism is not an issue in football?? Please don't make things up about what i said. I'm telling you with years and years personal experience of following BUFC everywhere that its not the done thing. Many Catholics play for Ballymena and quite a number of Catholics support Ballymena and watch the games week in and week out. Who else has come out and said they heard this abuse other than DJ??? I've been everywhere and can't find any other allegations of the same incident from anyone else??? Does DJ put ear plugs in when its Linfield supporters giving the abuse?? You trying to tell me he's never heard any Sectarian abuse coming from Linfield fans??? I don't believe that for one minute, so what does this say about DJ?? He either tolerates it from his own fans and sees nothing wrong with it, or he chooses not to voice his opinion when its his own fans?? Or he's just had his pride hurt because of the personal abuse he's received and has made a wild allegation in the heat of the moment.

Yes it should be made public but it would of been the decent thing to inform Ballymena officials of his complaint. After all both teams managers and officials sit alongside each other so i'm sure others must of heard it, bearing in mind Ballymena fans were sitting on the other side of the pitch from him so any abuse has to of been heard from almost everyone else inside the stadium, would you not agree??? Why then has Linfield fans sitting at the Kop end which is right beside BUFC fans not heard any of this??? This deserves a proper investigation as Sectarianism is not acceptable from anybody, however i'll go with what i know and listen to those who were there that i trust and know very well rather than take the words of DJ. If its proved otherwise then i'll condemn any idiot of would stoop so low and ruin the reputation of a good bunch of supporters. Who are these other people AFD then that heard thsi abuse???

[An Fear Dubh]

Harry do not go all sensitive on me! I am not trying to make up things, you did not specifically deny sectarianism, nor did you accept it either! You gave the impression to me that it had been dealt with by soccer, it has not. Sectarianism (as Republic pointed out) is a problem of society in the north. So where does sectarianism rear its head in soccer, only Linfield fans, as you seem to suggest?? It never happens at Ballymena Utd?? Let's get real! It exists everywhere in society in the north.
It is irrelevant who heard or did not hear the abuse that DJ talked off. The attitude should be it is wrong, not it did not happen. That is even if it did not happen. Because to offer excuses or give cover to sectarian abuse is to give it somewhere to hide. Yes, DJ has put himself and Linfield under the spotlight, but that is a good thing. Ballymena should have said that they will deal with anyone found to be hurling sectarian abuse, but in this allegation they have found no evidence, and would like witnesses to come forward. But they decided to attack DJ on his public methods. Maybe they did feel rightly aggrieved at this public airing without evidence. But the objective should be to combat sectarianism, not DJ.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

Harry do not go all sensitive on me! I am not trying to make up things, you did not specifically deny sectarianism, nor did you accept it either! You gave the impression to me that it had been dealt with by soccer, it has not. Sectarianism (as Republic pointed out) is a problem of society in the north. So where does sectarianism rear its head in soccer, only Linfield fans, as you seem to suggest?? It never happens at Ballymena Utd?? Let's get real! It exists everywhere in society in the north.
It is irrelevant who heard or did not hear the abuse that DJ talked off. The attitude should be it is wrong, not it did not happen. That is even if it did not happen. Because to offer excuses or give cover to sectarian abuse is to give it somewhere to hide. Yes, DJ has put himself and Linfield under the spotlight, but that is a good thing. Ballymena should have said that they will deal with anyone found to be hurling sectarian abuse, but in this allegation they have found no evidence, and would like witnesses to come forward. But they decided to attack DJ on his public methods. Maybe they did feel rightly aggrieved at this public airing without evidence. But the objective should be to combat sectarianism, not DJ.

AFD firstly Sectarianism is wrong, anyone found guilty of Sectarian chanting at Ballymena should be harshly dealt with. Sectarianism exsists in local football from the very bottom to the very top, it has reared its ugly head during saturday morning league games right to the irish premier league. So no, i don't believe footbal has dealt with it and no i don't believe only Linfield have been guilt of it and yes Ballymena will have its fair share of sectarian morons but these types are only blow ins and hangers on who will appear if Ballymena make a cup final or are doing well in the league so in all honesty they don't appear much ;D ;D

You decided to use facts about DJ to try in someway to make his allegations seem more believeable. You said that he was an OO member etc so this somehow means that he is uncapable of making these allegations without it being true. You think that Ballymena should just accept these allegations without any proof simply because it relates to Sectarianism. I think thats completely wrong, that allows individuals the right to throw mud at whoever they like and regardless of whether its true or false it ends up with supporters being labelled rightly or wrongly. Sectarianism is to serious for that and these allegations should be founded on solid evidence and be dealt with correctly and properly. It should be reported to the club involved, to the IFA, right up to UEFA level. These morons can't be allowed to spoil our local game anymore and need to be weeded out and all clubs made aware of the punishments they face if they aren't seen to be actively combating this menace to society. Reporting it to the local media when your still fuming from personal abuse sustained isn't the correct way to go about it, it denied Ballymena the right to investigate it properly without having their supporters slandered in the local media and down to DJs unprofessional behaviour its created bad blood and resentment when instead it should of created unity to stamp some authority.

Lets look at the facts. Ballymena fans where housed in the north stand at the opposite side of the pitch from all the Linfield and Ballymena benches. If DJ has heard this, then surely almost everyone else on the Linfield and Ballymena benches will also of heard it. The Linfield fans sitting in the Kop end, closer to the Ballymena fans will certainly of heard it but yet many Linfield fans have claimed to have heard no such thing and none of them have yet came out to support these claims??? Why??? I can't believe that DJ has never heard anything the like from his own supporters, Linfield have a masive support and a very loyal support and attract people from all over Ulster and i truly can't believe that at no point in DJs Linfield management career has he ever heard anything sectarian coming from the Linfield end. Why then has he not reported these to the local media??? It makes me questions his motives or at least the mans morals. I truly believe DJ has taken alot of personal abuse and has allowed his pride to cloud his judgement and he'll be regretting his allegations now that the dust has settled.

[An Fear Dubh]

You are still playing coy Harry! So although sectarianism is widespread across society in the north, Ballymena Utd seems to be made up only of the section of society that is not sectarian!! And it is only those hangers on and blow ins that are sectarian!!

[An Fear Dubh]

I can understand your position Harry. And of the 'unionist' posters you are among the most progressive. So if you find it difficult to confront, we can expect those less progressive than yourself to use the excuses and hide their bigotry behind denial.

[Harry]

AFD i'm denying that this specific incident ever happened. I'm putting my neck out and saying i don't believe for a second that Ballymena fans have been chanting sectarian abuse. I'm dealing with this incident and not the whole of N.Ireland society. Its pointless me telling you anymore what the make up of Ballymena support is or the nature of them because you use this to make out that i'm trying to say that only Ballymena fans are free from sectarianism. I've told you my views on it and tried telling you it from personal experience so i can't go much further than that.

Will you address my points of why no one else in the stadium has heard it?? Where is these other people that heard it?? Why the Linfield fans have themselves been rejecting their own managers allegations?? You are man for finding out the facts or at least you always have been so why is the facts not important here??

[An Fear Dubh]

Both you and myself were not at the match. We have two conflicting versions of what did happen. And without video evidence there is no way to tell which version is true. Both sides as we have determined have reasons that might make them 'exaggerate or lie'. For years society here in the north denied sectarianism existed everywhere and when sectarianism exposed itself openly it was pushed onto the other side or someone else.
Like an alcoholic the first step is to admit to the problem and recognize that you and myself and northern society has this problem. Do not deny it exists everywhere. Do not pretend that Ballymena Utd are immune, or are not made up from normal northern society. Sections of society have a vested interest in denying sectarianism exists be they Linfield fans or GAA players. But we know this to be false as daily we see the evidence of sectarianism in northern society. Both yourself and Ballymena Utd need to come to terms with the fact everyone in the north is sectarian, some more or less than others, but the scale of the sectarianism is irrelevant, we need to confront and tackle it, not perpetuate it by denial of its existence.
Facts are important but sometimes the bigger picture puts individual facts into irrelevance in relation to the greater good of society. But for the individual ardent Ballymena Utd/GAA supporter I can understand their reasons for wanting to distance themselves from sectarianism. Here in this forum we need to keep an eye to the bigger picture, if our objective is to find common cause, if your objective is to point score then you will want to keep scratching till you draw blood.

[Harry]

anfeardubh said:

Both you and myself were not at the match. We have two conflicting versions of what did happen. And without video evidence there is no way to tell which version is true. Both sides as we have determined have reasons that might make them 'exaggerate or lie'. For years society here in the north denied sectarianism existed everywhere and when sectarianism exposed itself openly it was pushed onto the other side or someone else.
Like an alcoholic the first step is to admit to the problem and recognize that you and myself and northern society has this problem. Do not deny it exists everywhere. Do not pretend that Ballymena Utd are immune, or are not made up from normal northern society. Sections of society have a vested interest in denying sectarianism exists be they Linfield fans or GAA players. But we know this to be false as daily we see the evidence of sectarianism in northern society. Both yourself and Ballymena Utd need to come to terms with the fact everyone in the north is sectarian, some more or less than others, but the scale of the sectarianism is irrelevant, we need to confront and tackle it, not perpetuate it by denial of its existence.
Facts are important but sometimes the bigger picture puts individual facts into irrelevance in relation to the greater good of society. But for the individual ardent Ballymena Utd/GAA supporter I can understand their reasons for wanting to distance themselves from sectarianism. Here in this forum we need to keep an eye to the bigger picture, if our objective is to find common cause, if your objective is to point score then you will want to keep scratching till you draw blood.

AFD what exactly is your version of the event?? Is it anything other than the allegations you read coming from DJ?? Many friends of mine and more importantly family were there so i'm pretty sure i got the full version in all its glory. I've yet to see or hear anyone back DJ but have reads many accounts denying anything happened. Speaks volumes.

No one is denying Sectarianism exsists, i know fine well the problems we have as a country but i'll repeat, i'm not prepared to be tarnished without proof. If you want to use our problems as a whole to gently just push this incident into the already big pile of shit that we have then fine but i'd rather be positive and prove it didn't happen. I'd expect you to do the same if it were your club and you had strong beliefs that it didn't happen.

[An Fear Dubh]

Harry I have every sympathy for Ballymena Utd, and accept your version and that of your family and friends. I have no doubt that most supporters are good honest people. But in return I also know that most GAA supporters are good honest people also. But they have been equally tarnished without evidence or proof of sectarianism. But does that mean that sectarianism does not exist in Ballymena Utd or my local GAA club? It is possible that it does not exist but it is more likely that it does exist. So how do I (or you) tackle and confront sectarianism within northern society?
For myself I make it publicly clear to all who will listen, that any form of sectarianism is not tolerated in my presence, and that any individual will be actively pursued to be 'removed'. Despite the fact I have never heard mention of anything sectarian from any individual, I do not think that it does not exist, even below the surface. But we should be wise enough to understand that it is prevalent in our society and that sporting bodies are part of that society.
It is not positive to prove that sectarian chanting did not exist in one case, even if that is the truth. It is a negative action, as it sets a precedent that those who are sectarian can hide behind. We see too often that those who are sectarian use these cases to pretend that it is just another false accusation being hurled from the other community, or from individuals with alternative motives. Sectarianism is a greater threat to our communities advancement than non-sectarianism. So while it is distasteful to be labeled in error or wrongly, the greater threat (sectarianism) is to be given no hiding place, no excuse, no second chance.