SECTARIAN GAA

[lochy]

wasp said:

Republic that is a fair and reasonable post. On the Protestant issue, on paper in the north it is not anti-Protestant but in reality it is. Take the Protestant player who broke all barriers by playing for a Catholic school and has a kid brought up in the Catholic faith. Look at the treatment he received.

I have been a member of GAA clubs i both North and South and there is no difference in the ethos of the clubs. They are anti-unionist, but in no way anti-protestant. I played against a few protestants when I played minor football. There was no sectarian abuse.
the Protestant player who was targeted was targeted by opposition players in what to my mind amounts to sledging . He received No abuse from fans and NO abuse from his own club. It was unacceptable and he has received an apology and will start playing again. My brother-in-law used to be on the Fermanagh county board and they are prepared to do anything to stop this happening again. It WILL be stamped out even if it is not a common occurance.
I think the hypocricy here lies in the fact that the same people who played down Neil Lennon receiving DEATH THREATS becasue of his religion, are the same ones who are so whipped up about this.

When you have lived in a country that has seen Portestants etnically cleansed as were Catholics, where republicans targeted mainly Protestant towns then you will soon realize the sectarianism of the ira, same for loyalist paramilitaries. Then add that to cups for under 11's etc named after terrorists who targeted the Protestant community you should soon realize how anti- Protestant the GAA is in N.Ireland.

I wont defend the cups naming thing, but the GAA have no control over that. It is a local issue. In much the same way that OO bands glorify Loyalist terrorists. In both it should be removed, but local influence in both the GAA and OO are strong. Local people keep local clubs going, providing education, culture and sport, and so they are given leeway. It is not indicative of the GAA as a whole as the glorification of Loyalist terrorists in not indicative of the OO as a whole.

Now how can one man claim to want to stamp out sectarianism when he attended the opening of a ground named after a terrorist. Shouldn't this same man now be calling for such names and cups etc to be scrapped otherwise these clubs can no longer participate in GAA tournaments.

Probably in much the same way as present day DUP members os the assembly attended funerals of Terrorists and shared stages with them(Willie and King Rat). An error of judgement, nothing more.

[An Fear Dubh]

I find myself agreeing with Republic and Harry. (I will exclude Wasp as his argument is not consistent and he does not listen to the replies that refute his suggestions). As both Republic and Harry highlight, the GAA is not anti-Protestant. But by its very ethos being to promote Irish Culture through sport and it does not recognize the political border in Ireland, and that makes it difficult for Unionists to accept. Again as Republic points out being a nationalist organization, and in society in the north Unionism is dominated by Protestants and Nationalism is dominated by Catholics. And any nationalist organization is not appealing to Unionists, which means Protestants find themselves excluded.

I think it is fair to compare the GAA and the Orange Order, one is a sporting organization the other is a religious organization. Both are anarchic and need to change to suit the changing society we live in today. As a Republican I like to think that I am at the forefront of change in Nationalist thinking. I have not diluted my Republicanism for religion, for power, or for self gain. Organizations like the GAA are dragged along by changes in society, but they are slow to change. Republicans recognize the need to change as society develops and nationalist groups like the GAA will slowly change, the challenge for Unionism is to try to match nationalism.

I remember playing Gaelic football and soccer. And I was a defender, my specialty was man-marking the star player, and I was good at it. But I did more than use skill and anticipation, I deliberately tried to put the guy off his game. I verbally abused and got under his skin, and if I had something on him even better. And anyone who plays team sports knows this is common practice. In soccer black players rightly complained about racist abuse and Darren Graham is right to complain about sectarian abuse. But if he is serious about his complaint he needs to name names and identify those individuals. I am suspicious of these vague suggestions, and I am not in favor of minority groups playing the victim card. When the real issue is not discrimination but something everyone has to learn to deal with.

[Harry]

Some very good posts from Republic,BA,AFD etc regarding the GAA. I don't believe the GAA is sectarian free but also know for sure that its not an anti Protestant organistaion but due to the political circumstances each opposing camp is dominated by one religion or the other so its easy to see why Protestants may feel its a religion based thing. It just seems to me that some refuse to recognise Protestant concerns over the GAA and some of the ongoings within the GAA.

Its the case of what we see as problems within the GAA is merely responded to by pointing out similar flaws within Protestant organisations like the OO. Its as if somehow our wrong doings justify their wrong doings and vice versa. We never really address these problems but merely create a spiral of tit for tat finger pointing without trying to ease fears or mistrust.

Would anyone be ok with the idea of starting 2 new threads about the GAA and the OO. On each thread the problems we feel about each organistion would be made clear and we can then go about responding to these problems without merely just pointing out the other sides faults....I think it will prove quite hard and challenging to answer these problems without using the other sides faults as a means to justify our own... ;D ;D Maybe its a bad idea or even silly.....let me know and we can try if people fancy the idea???

[An Fear Dubh]

I am always up for constructive debate. I think I am aware of the problems with the GAA, and as a member I will push for change. Change in such a large organization will be slow and resisted at every step. It will not happen over night and most of the change is about education, making the members of the GAA aware, as this is usually due to ignorance rather than the few who are deliberate in their discrimination.

I have no problem acknowledging the problems of the GAA. I freely accept they are a nationalist based organization, and that position isolates unionists (protestants). My problem is that some from the Unionist tradition are not about identifying issues to bring about education. They are about political point scoring and are blind to the issues that exist with organization that are the other side of the coin. If there was an acceptance of the issues within their 'own' side, then I would welcome input into issues on the 'other' side. But while no acknowledgment exists it is hard to take seriously any comment by such individuals.

I understand your point that the argument should not be that the other side do it so it is okay for us to be equally as intolerant. Intolerance is wrong. It is not a case of justifying problems by pointing out similar flaws within groups or traditions belonging to those of the 'other' side.

You may remember Harry that I did ask a number of questions regarding the Orange Order, and yourself and Kilsally, did begin to answer. But I was never satisfied that it was properly addressed by anyone. I accept that I was more interested in that the points were listened to and seriously considered. I understand that change is slow and resisted by the first step is to acknowledge the problems. There seem to be few within the Unionist community that even acknowledge an issue. And that is highlighted by the response of the Orange Order to residents groups. The GAA governing bodies in fairness to them once the issue with Darren Graham was highlighted to them have acknowledged and worked at addressing his issues.

[Wasp]

I am always up for constructive debate. I think I am aware of the problems with the GAA, and as a member I will push for change. Change in such a large organization will be slow and resisted at every step. It will not happen over night and most of the change is about education, making the members of the GAA aware, as this is usually due to ignorance rather than the few who are deliberate in their discrimination.

Now that I do welcome and accept it will not happen overnight.

I have no problem acknowledging the problems of the GAA. I freely accept they are a nationalist based organization, and that position isolates unionists (protestants).

Now IMO we are getting somewhere, especially from someone such as yourself (as in republican). This acknowledgement is a start.

My

problem is that some from the Unionist tradition are not about identifying issues to bring about education. They are about political point scoring and are blind to the issues that exist with organization that are the other side of the coin.

Again I can see your point although not all condemnation is point scoring.

If there was an acceptance of the issues within their 'own' side, then I would welcome input into issues on the 'other' side. But while no acknowledgment exists it is hard to take seriously any comment by such individuals.

Again I can see your point but again it is understanding the 'others' viewpoint.

I understand your point that the argument should not be that the other side do it so it is okay for us to be equally as intolerant. Intolerance is wrong. It is not a case of justifying problems by pointing out similar flaws within groups or traditions belonging to those of the 'other' side.

Intolerance is wrong and should be addressed by all sides.

The GAA governing bodies in fairness to them once the issue with Darren Graham was highlighted to them have acknowledged and worked at addressing his issues.

To an extent I agree, but it is it for the public eye or is it for real? The fact the GAA is a nationalist sport and in thinking as well, then I don't see the point of Unionists wanting to join. The crux of the problem IMO is the statements that it is inclusive, open to all and does not discriminate. I have been corrected in relation to the GAA in the south and I accept my opinion of them was to an extent wrong, but the GAA in the north is a different kettle of fish.

So at the end of the day is the GAA going to continue as it is which I accept as it is a nationalist body or is it going to bring about change to be inclusive rather than exclusive?

[An Fear Dubh]

Wasp maybe if you had read my previous comments with Harry on the GAA it has always been my position that the GAA is not perfect. My position on the GAA has not changed since I first joined this group. This is not something new to the GAA either, you only have to read the various motions put before the membership at various governing body meetings.
I would identify yourself as one of those that are unable to identify issues within the unionist tradition. And I find your motives in highlighting some issues questionable and would put them in the category of political point scoring. It would help you better if you read the replies to yourself, and acknowledged when facts disputed some of your unfounded assertions.
The only way to judge the GAA is by what is does, but as Setanta has pointed out you can not hold the GAA to account for things it does not have control over, again this returns to your inability to listen/read the replies given to yourself.

[Wasp]

Well maybe I am a slow learner and all bodies are not perfect. But on your point of the GAA havinfg no control over things my thoughts would be they could very well ban those clubs that are promoting sectarianism and further alienating one community. If things are to stay the same then it will not affect me, the main issue I have is the double standards in what are being claimed as I have already stated such as inclusiveness etc.

[An Fear Dubh]

Ok fair enough but even slow learners do show some improvement, I will cut you some slack but expect to see sign of learning something.
I think that point about those clubs being disciplined is a fair point. But I suspect that the discipline you want and that might be considered approriate by myself and what actually happens are far apart.

[Wasp]

ON discipline for example if clubs say were told by the GAA to cease partaking in questionable cups or tournamnets or face discipline, then TBH as a Unionist I would see the GAA taking positive steps and when those whom I know talk about Gaelic matches or whatever then I would take an interest to see if it is a sport that I could follow. But that would be early days and change from the GAA and people like myself does not happen overnight.

Like anything else it takes time. As far as sport goes the only one I follow is premiership football and international football. Irish, Scottish, English divisions I have little or no interest in. Cricket is a big no no although rugby does interest me at times even if inly a wee bit.

[Republic]

I have been corrected in relation to the GAA in the south and I accept my opinion of them was to an extent wrong, but the GAA in the north is a different kettle of fish.

In this case WASP, it would seem that the problem is to do with NI society rather than the GAA.
If it is fine in the south and not in the north, then would it be accurate to say that the sectarianism is not an organisational problem, but a regional one.
Perhaps the GAA in NI will not be seen as sectarian when the larger society that it operates within also ceases to be sectarian.

In other words, its a NI problem, not a GAA-wide problem, and when NI begins to operate as a normal society, then its organisations will follow suit.

I feel its pointless trying to solve the problems of the GAA or the OO in an isolated context when it is obvious that their problems stem from operating within such a sectarian society.

[Harry]

In all honesty i've no interest in the GAA changing so its wrong or misleading of me to pretend that i have. I accept the GAA as the body it is, a nationalist body with nationalist aspirations and they are entitled to be as such. I will never want to be involved within the GAA not matter how much they changed, so by all means if the ordinary members believe change is needed then thats up to them but in my eyes there is no point changing to facilitate a community that will never want to be part of it.. Perhaps time will prove me wrong but thats how i see it now

[Harry]

I just don't see where the desire from within Unionism to play GAA is going to come from. On a sporting level alone i don't find it interesting at all and football and even rugby will always be the most popular sports. Regardless of the political issues surrounding it i just can't see any Unionists ever fancying it as a sport.

[An Fear Dubh]

I acknowledge the weakness of the GAA but I also acknowledge its strength. Its main strength is about involvement in the community and to bring enjoyment to young people. For me the big matches in Croke Park or Casement are the by product of the main objective, to get kids to have fun through Gaelic sports.

Local clubs approach local primary schools and provide free training and coaching the hope is to get the guts of a team for the club at various age levels. The school might also get a team out of it too. With the GAA there is football, hurling, camogie and handball. Other things like 'An Poc Fada' require hurling skills, a favourite game of CúChulainn, a folklore figure that loyalists have embraced. As a youth I played soccer, Gaelic football and rugby, I tried hurling but got a lifetime ban from the GAA for 'being a danger to myself'. I have been at soccer camps, soccer galas etc. And I have been to Gaelic football festivals, and in inter-county competitions. For me the enjoyment of the Gaelic football events were a level above.

Young people with an interest in a sport have their hero's, the ones they can watch on TV. Be it Wayne Rooney of Manchester United or Peter Canavan of Tyrone. Now I remember being at a GAA camp in Tyrone when Peter Canavan turned up. And the boys and girls did what most would when a living 'Hero' turns up. What are the chances of a young Ulster boy meeting Wayne Rooney or any English Premier player? Or are you going to say that local soccer players are there hero's? Maybe for a small minority that is the case. Even take our own Wasp as an example, he follows English Premiership Soccer and little else. What chance does he have of ever meeting an Arsenal player in Belfast?

When Riverdance gave Irish Dancing a new boost and a new image, everyone wanted to be part of that. I remember attending some inter-community event in Tullycarnet, and was surprised to find they had Irish Dancing classes and they put on a display of talent. Now where did this desire for Irish Dancing come from within the Unionist community? Irish Dancing is also organized on an All-Ireland basis and by that has a nationalistic perspective. Maybe if the BBC (NI) and UTV executives moved away from their enclosed Unionist view and started to have live GAA matches, Irish speaking programs and other programs around Irish culture. Ordinary Unionists might see what the attraction is, and some may feel a desire to participate or watch and be entertained.

I watched Dublin v Derry on RTE on Saturday, (before that was Armagh v Roscommon in the Nicky Rackard Cup - hurling). I thought Dublin v Derry it lacked the usual full-blooded passion, of a quarter final. Derry seemed to have lost before the start and Dublin went through their paces. Final score 0-18 v 0-15, Match attendance 80,213.

On Sunday first up was Cork v Derry Minor Semi Final. Then I watched a brave Monaghan, in another quarter final, who were unlucky to lose to a half hearted Kerry display. Final score 1-12 v 1-11, Attendance 80,546. But after that I watched Limerick v Waterford in the hurling (Waterford had been heavily by nearly all to win). WOW! The game ebbed and flowed, but Limerick's hunger and desire to win was on naked display. Waterford played well enough to win but hit too many balls wide. The final score 5-11(26) v 2-15 (21).

All that went to Croke Park got 3 top matches to watch, and the same for those like myself sitting at home with a few mates around the TV. I assume Harry when you say popular you mean to yourself, as the match attendances plus tv viewing figures put them more popular and well above soccer and rugby in any part of Ireland. Only top international Rugby matches at the GAA's Croke Park can match that! Maybe Harry it is time you went to the local Irish pub in England that shows these matches on a big screen, and sampled the crack. Then you might begin to understand the attraction. I suspect once the exposure to these events become more widespread, the attraction will grow within the Unionist communities.

[An Fear Dubh]

Ok, so it was a better match than half hearted, I was over dramatic. But although I wanted Dublin to win, I felt they were always playing with gears to spare. Derry did push hard but it did not need much for Dublin to win I have seen them play better.

Now when I played many moons ago, I remember changing at pitch side, and in the van if it was heavy rain. And few except the elite clubs had changing rooms that were close to or available to younger teams. I admit that has changed but I still know of fledgling clubs that either have pitches far removed from the official club room or rent pitches while looking for suitable sites, to relocate to.

[Harry]

AFD....when i talk about popular i was referring to myself and the circles i would move in. I've not met any Unionist on my travels anywhere who has ever expressed the desire to watch or learn anything about the GAA. I would dispute that GAA is more popular than football in any part of Ireland but thats for a different arguement ;D ;D I can't fault it in the sense of what it achieves in terms of sport within the nationalist community. The crowds that go to watch it alone are testament to the good it must do within your community and i only wish we had something to its equivalent.

I just don't believe that any Unionists will get involved in any large numbers. The ethos of the GAA and its foundations will always prevent that from happening and again i've no problem with that as i would never seek to play the game anyway. The GAA will always be something that the other side do and i've no desire to change that or interfere with it. I just don't want to be told that at the minute the GAA would welcome people like myself becasue its simply not the case.