What happened to talking

[Wasp]

There problem is the sinn fein controlled resident groups. I have been to this parade and it is a small parade, have you ever been to Carnlough? They are hardly walking through republican estates. The sea is on one side, on the other grass areas, then some houses, on down you have the harbour on one side, a few shops and car parks on the other. The field was outside Carnlough with only a few bungalows anywhere near the field and they were quite some distance away.

Once every 6 years and there are problems with a short parade which passes housing areas and does not go through them.

The majority of the parade walks along the seafront and then up a country road to the field unless they have changed the route. Some tolerance shown here by the residents.

The parade takes about 20 mins to pass any given point.

[An Fear Dubh]

Of course the Orange Order do not want to talk to local residents.

Both Spike Murray and Martin McGuiness have been to Garvaghy Road to try and talk for the Orange Order. They are trying to get the residents to agree to a July 1st march, they might try and dress it up as something different than an Orange march. So why would the Orange Order want to speak with locals if they can get Sinn Féin to do their bidding?

[An Fear Dubh]

Okay bidding is the wrong word, but the end result will mean the Orange Order do not have to talk to residents to impose their will.

And that will set a precident as the way to avoid talking to local residents. Create an empass then SF will 'horse trade'.

[Wasp]

I am getting mixed opinions of all this. I didn't know the OO has went back on their word and I would like someone from that side to explain. If what AFD is saying is true about Garvaghy road then perhaps that is a good thing that sinn fein are making moves that Unionists would even welcome. Through time with these type of things the future looks brighter.

[earl]

“It is clear that there are some in the republican community who are wedded to the past, and we could have been excused from hoping that, in the new political dispensation, the old tactic of causing dissension and confrontation over parades would be in the past.

This is ironic, coming from a spokesman for an organisation who are all about keeping a misrepresentation of facts of an ancient battle (and it's aftermath) alive. He seems to totally dismiss all those looking for dialogue as basically troublemakers. How can he know this without talking to them first? He mentions the 'new political dispensation'. Is he aware that dialogue and compromise are vital elements of said dispensation?

There is a need for parity of esteem for the Orange tradition, and respect for our parades and events.

And how is the local lodge showing respect for those residents it point blankly even considers talking to, nevermind anything else!
Romans 13:7
Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

“In our experience, talks will not bring a resolution to any supposed issues because, as has been seen in Belfast and elsewhere, republicans do not want Orange parades at all, and keep providing obstacles once agreement is close.

What experience?? The only one supposing is himself in this sentence. What has instances from Belfast got to do with the locals in Carnlough? He is painting for beginners here. Broad brushstrokes for all. He's highlighted no specific instance here, which would have been very useful in stating his case. This leads to believe that he's full of here-say, BS and not much else.

In the interests of impartiality on this, and without knowing the full facts on the ground, personally speaking, if this march takes place in a public area, then there should be no protests, as public areas are there for all. I know this isn't the case in many places on St. Patricks day, but nationalists should lead by example. Protest if such marches come through your residential area without the residents consent, as is normal anywhere else, but don't protest against marches through public areas.
That said, it is unfortunate that the OO have refused dialogue once again. This shows that they don't even want to try. If this march is deemed ok by the parades commission, then they've nothing to worry about in having dialogue with the locals. Worse case scenario, the talks fail and the march still goes ahead as planned. Not even trying is insulting.

[An Fear Dubh]

Earl said:

That said, it is unfortunate that the OO have refused dialogue once again. This shows that they don't even want to try. If this march is deemed ok by the parades commission, then they've nothing to worry about in having dialogue with the locals. Worse case scenario, the talks fail and the march still goes ahead as planned. Not even trying is insulting.

I agree entirely with Earl here. As Wasp said Carnlough is a small town and to my knowledge the Orange Order march does parade along the seafront. And I do not think it enters any estates. But the town is 85% Catholic and the majority of those marching are not from the town but mainly from Larne. If these were entirely local Orangemen then I would be looking for tolerance to be shown by the local nationalist community. But why travel all the way to Carnlough to parade?

[earl]

anfeardubh said:

But why travel all the way to Carnlough to parade?

I guess it's a case of those traveling to insult those who travelled to be insulted!

[Jim]

have you ever been to Carnlough?

yeah, most people there are from ardoyne

[Wasp]

anfeardubh said:

Earl said:

That said, it is unfortunate that the OO have refused dialogue once again. This shows that they don't even want to try. If this march is deemed ok by the parades commission, then they've nothing to worry about in having dialogue with the locals. Worse case scenario, the talks fail and the march still goes ahead as planned. Not even trying is insulting.

I agree entirely with Earl here. As Wasp said Carnlough is a small town and to my knowledge the Orange Order march does parade along the seafront. And I do not think it enters any estates. But the town is 85% Catholic and the majority of those marching are not from the town but mainly from Larne. If these were entirely local Orangemen then I would be looking for tolerance to be shown by the local nationalist community. But why travel all the way to Carnlough to parade?

AFD if it is the 12th July parade then those attending will be from Carnlough, Glenarm, Broughshane and the areas between Broughshane and Carnlough which are mainly country areas. I don't think there will be any bands from Larne unless they are invited. The amount of bands will be about 10 to 15 unless this has changed since the last parade I was at in Carnlough.

Ballymena has its own parade and there has been times when the Braid parade took place in nearby Broughshane.

So will you be looking for tolerance now considering most of those involved are from in and around the surrounding area?

[An Fear Dubh]

I have to say Wasp that I am unsure, and would need to know more facts. I do not know enough about who, what and why. The things I am thinking about - Are those that are traveling from other areas (like Glenarm, Broughshane) not having a parade in their own area. If this is a parade that moves location each year and different local lodges host it, and therefore is only in Carnlough every 6 years. And if as you say there is not a large influx of 'hangers on' that may cause issues. Then I would certainly look to the local nationalist community to act in a tolerant and dignified manner. But I do not know enough facts and will look for more information. I have read the article but would need to know more background.

You were saying Wasp that you would like to hear if the Orange Order were breaking their word over talking to residents. I think you might find as Kilsally highlighted it is not a case of them breaking their word, but of being unable to deliver on this due to their organisational structure. But that does not excuse them, only it allows us to understand. As I think it is easy to say that this residents group is Sinn Féin led, and that is just an excuse, to talk.

The thing is that even if it is only local Orangemen marching. It is polite and neighbourly to talk to your neighbours and community. And I do not see the harm in talking to the local residents and helping them to overcome their fear and apprehension. Like saying to them, it will only be local and surrounding areas. Nationalists see the Orange Order as triumphantist and bigoted against Catholics. The Orange Order need to demonstate but positive actions that this is not the case. Refusing to talk to the local community is to treat it with distain and confirm their suspicions.

[earl]

anfeardubh said:

Nationalists see the Orange Order as triumphantist and bigoted against Catholics. The Orange Order need to demonstate but positive actions that this is not the case. Refusing to talk to the local community is to treat it with distain and confirm their suspicions.

Exactly AFD. We've seen the rules or code laid out for Orangemen. Now all they have to do is put it into practice, and show by example what they are all about. Talking to their neighbours is one way.

[Shades40]

Don't forget the murders of the Three Quinn childern, Rosemary Nelson, Frank Reilly, Elizabeth O'Neill and Michael McGoldrick all killed because of the OO's demand to march along the Garvaghy Rd.

[Wasp]

AFD wrote 'It is polite and neighbourly to talk to your neighbours and community'

I agree with your point here, but when it is sinn fein controlled then problems arise. That's the way it is and if sinn fein perhaps stepped back then the OO has no excuse not to talk to residents. We all know sinn fein has created situations, we know Adams stated this in a speech, we know sinn fein members from outside the areas have come in to claim to represent the area and this is where problems arise. Sinn fein have increased tensions and in some areas created tensions.

On the loyalist side they have played their part also in increasing tensions but it is sinn fein who are the obstacle for the OO, so take sf out and the OO have then no excuse.

[Blue Angel]

no that doesn't work either - for the simple reason that it becomes 'the OO talk to those who they choose' which defeats the point of talking in any case.

[An Fear Dubh]

For most of its history the Orange Order have adopted an attitude of 'Croppies lie down' or 'to hell or Connought'. Refusing to recognise the legitimate rights of their Catholic neighbours. And saying that something is Sinn Féin led or created is just an excuse and does not wash. Sinn Féin are now equal partners in our government, to ignore them is to ignore the will of democracy. We can see the hypocracy of the Orange Order with regards to loyalist paramilitaries who have failed to embrace the new ways and continue to hold weapons and engage in crime.

Sinn Féin did not create this issues, the Orange Order did. What Sinn Féin did was exploit the situation for political gain. Sinn Féin did provide leadership as representives within the local areas. And when needed did provide the network of support for these residents who felt issolated and under seige. Thus giving them the confidence to stand up to bully boy tactics and to say no we have had enough.

It is difficult to believe that in Carnlough that this is Sinn Féin led. Given the current moves going on in Portadown and the cautious political beginings we have at Stormont. The mood music from the Sinn Féin leadership is to gentlly ease the DUP into acceptance of the new roles. And rocking the boat in not wanted at this time. What the local Sinn Féin people will be doing is giving leadership and pragmatic advice to avoid adopting positions that are unacceptable to the wider community. Asking for talks is not unreasonable, in fact it is overly reasonable. The outcome of these talks must not be predetermined by the Orange Lodge and then dismissed. Sinn Féin can not deliver and never could deliver these residents groups, but they can ensure that the residents start from a sustainable position. But the Orange Order need to also start from a sustainable position, which is talking to these resident groups regardless of who the spokesperson is. They made that mistake on the Garvaghy Road by rejecting the first Chairperson (the local Priest) and the Brendan was elected in, now the Priest seems a better option to them.