What happened to talking

[Harry]

shades40 said:

Don't forget the murders of the Three Quinn childern, Rosemary Nelson, Frank Reilly, Elizabeth O'Neill and Michael McGoldrick all killed because of the OO's demand to march along the Garvaghy Rd.

So did the OO carry out these murders??? Lets not be silly and label such allegations

[Shades40]

harry said:

shades40 said:

Don't forget the murders of the Three Quinn children, Rosemary Nelson, Frank Reilly, Elizabeth O'Neill and Michael McGoldrick all killed because of the OO's demand to march along the Garvaghy Rd.

So did the OO carry out these murders??? Lets not be silly and label such allegations

Maybe their members where involved I don't know but they where a direct result of the OO demands.

[Wasp]

Didn't Adam's say something about these situations being created in recent years??

Shades how do you make out that those particular murders were a direct result of OO demands? I think there was alot more to the murder of Nelson than Drumcree.

I don't want to say too much about the Quinn children as no reason but no reason excuses this horrific and tragic event. No-one in their right mind would try and excuse the murder of these poor kids. But on the petrol bombing there was more to it than just Drumcree. I am not going to say anything further as there murder disgusted even the most hardline of loyalists and to do so would seem to be diflecting part of the blame as in having an excuse. Drumcree may have been part of the reason the house was targeted but I believe it wasn't the only one.

So to blame the OO for their deaths is highly unfair and if you remember OO members said no piece of road was worth the death of any child.

[Harry]

shades40 said:

harry said:

So did the OO carry out these murders??? Lets not be silly and label such allegations

Maybe their members where involved I don't know but they where a direct result of the OO demands.

The OO demanded the right to parade the Garvaghy Rd. They never demanded anyone be killed becuase of such demands. Exactly you don't know so it'd be wise to stop drawing direct comparisions between the OO and any murders. Drumcree was manipulated by those intent on causing death and destruction.

[An Fear Dubh]

I have to say that I think Wasp's attitude to the Quinn boys murder a good one.

For nationalists there is a link with the Orange Order call for civil unrest because of Garvaghy Road and the murder of these children. But we all know that every grouping can have its fair share of morons, and morons hangers on. I am afraid that you can not call for civil unrest and protest and then shrivel away because some moron goes too far. You must shoulder some responsibility and openly condemn it without excuse. Republicans also have their black marks, and equally republicans must condemn them too.

Therefore I think Wasp must be praised for his stance here, and I think Harry's is not as generous but looking to excuse the Orange Order of their responsiblity here. Yes we know they did not call for murders, etc. But they did call for public disorder that would help civil unrest and put political pressure to facilitate their march.

[An Fear Dubh]

As for what Adam's said about situations being created, I am unsure but feel you are correct in that he did say something along those lines. While I can not be sure of the exact wording or the context it was said in. I have always felt that the unease of nationalist feelings around these triumphant marches has existed for many years. And as nationalists have developed politically they have been able to use this feelings and to use their experience of political protest to harness these feelings into a political tool. This is what I feel Adams was eluding to, but as I said I am unsure of the exact quote or context.

[Wasp]

Setanta I pm'd you.

AFD I will try to find the exact wording for you, I haven't much time at min but I will get it for you sometime over the weekend.

[Wasp]

AFD this is what I was on about.

Prime Time reporter, Justin O'Brien, said that the programme had a transcript of a speech made by Mr. Adams in Athboy.


Mr. O'Brien said that a crucial part of Mr. Adams's speech read: "Ask any activist in the North did Drumcree happen by accident, and they will tell you 'no' ..... three years of work on the Lower Ormeau Road, Portadown, and parts of Fermanagh and Newry, Armagh and Bellaghy, and up in Derry".

"Three years' work went into creating that situation, and fair play to those people who put the work in". According to Mr. O'Brien, the Sinn Fein president concluded: "And they are the type of scene changes that we have to focus in on, and develop, and exploit."

[An Fear Dubh]

Ok I have had a few so my brain is fuzzy, so bear with me here.

That Adams quote does not ring a bell, but as one of the ones sent to Portadown to 'help', I do know the history. Political advancement of one political party does not come about over night. People need to be won over by addressing their fears, needs, and wants. I was there during the Obin Street riots. So it was a lot more than 3 years of work. Did I and others manufacture the issue? No! What we did was enable the local people to express their fears to contacts in the international media, forcing the local media (which to this point had remained mute) to report the facts. We ensured that the local community adopted positions that were sustainable to media scruttiny, we coached and we advised. But we let locals keep control. Garvaghy Road/Drumcree was an unbelieveable result of Obin Street, and not something we could of created in our wildest dreams. We must give full credit to the stupidity of the Orange Order here. I had stopped visiting Portadown after Obin Street had settled, only to be quickly sent back as Garvaghy Rd developed. But by that time Brendan was already elected leader and my presence was not needed, I still visit contacts now and again but activists like me are no longer needed.

I see nothing wrong with political activists like myself going to help other less experienced activists. Sometimes you help, sometimes you hinder, sometimes you just provide the support or the strength that support exists outside of the local community. Portadown would have always occurred, we just brought it to a head quicker.

[Harry]

What the OO did was call for mass protests. I agree that most of the OO members who made such speeches knew full well the results that would occur in the working class Loyalist areas. Calling for mass numbers to go to the streets and the end result was always going to be violence so in that sense the OO played the major role in creating disorder.

We have a situation, a problem. The OO are only part of that problem. Regardless of what you think of the OO i see the SF residents groups as much of the problem as the OO are. We wouldn't talk, they wouldn't present spokespersons we could talk to, we demand the right the march, they demand No March, we will riot if we are stopped, they will riot if we are allowed..........and on and on and on, both sides throwing accusations left right and centre.

The OO called for protests. Some of these protests went way over the top. As a result people lost their lifes. Totally tragic and inhumane but thats life here and its been that way for many a year. Street violence is a tactic used by both sides when they don't get their way.

[An Fear Dubh]

The burning of children in their home is very emotive. It can not be excused or reasonably explained away in a political context, it was wrong, and must be condemned without qualifications.

We are educated enough to know that such acts are not limited to one section only. I do support the rights of the residents, and feel that in the main they are justified in asking for the Orange Order to discuss with them, so that an agreed and acceptable result can be found.

Not talking to local residents is an unsustainable position. Objecting to the residents spokesperson is not a reasonable position to adopt. The Orange Order need to move forward, at the moment they seem to think they are not answerable to the greater community and have no responsibility to solve any issues arising from their marches.

[Harry]

The burning of anyone from their homes is wrong. Lets not get our wires crossed about those little boys. I totally condemn it and it was a waste of such young innocent life at a stage of their life when the evil realitiy of N.Ireland meant nothing to them. They are yet more innocent victims of our troubles and it should never of happened and can never ever be justified

[Wasp]

AFD you said if OO members were from the Carnlough area etc you would advise tolerance, but because they were from Larne you wouldn't or words to that affecet. As someone who was involved in advising residents etc and given the facts I gave you about the Carnlough parade, would you now support the reidents to show tolerance or would you find another problem relating to the march??? Serious question and not a smart arsed comment incase you think it is.

[Wasp]

AFD wrote 'If these were entirely local Orangemen then I would be looking for tolerance to be shown by the local nationalist community.'

Sorry these were your words, so now that you know where they are all from which is from Carnlough and the surrounding area, Carnlough is in the Braid area and many of those come from the surrounding countryside and villages, will you advise tolerance or confrontation?

[An Fear Dubh]

You must realise Wasp that before I would committ myself, I would like to aquaint myself with the views of both the Orange Order and the Residents, and do these Orange Order members from surrounding areas have there own parade as well. Asking the local residents to show tolerance does not mean that they can not expect common courtesy from the Orange Order - talks. The Orange Order must now understand that they must talk to all residents prior to marching.

But from what you have said about only being local and neighbouring area Orange Order members, and that this is only going to be every 6 years and will not change to an annual event.

My view is that if the Orange Order talk to residents, I would ask the residents to agree to an Orange Order parade. The residents might want some assurances from the OO about who is marching, how many bands, and I do not know if the route passes or comes close to houses/chapel but there might be a need for a plan if it does. Such assurances are not looking to create obsticles but to plan away problems before they arise.