What happened to talking

[Wasp]

AFD it is the annual twelth parade which is shared by the various lodges. This year it is Carnlough, next year it will be say Broughshane and so on. This also brings in money to the area with the families of the bands and Orangemen along with others coming into the area. It is a family day out and I have never saw any trouble at any of these parades. The take aways, shops, pubs and amusements will make alot of money on that day. The main road in Carnlough might be closed for about an hour till the parade passes, if it returns the sameway then it may close for about another hour or so. It's once every six years and remember there are also Protestants who live in Carnlough. The need to speak to residents seems to be nothing more than a precondition especially when this parade does not pass any flashpoints.

Why can neighbours not show respect for fellow neighbours without having to sit down and talk about a parade that has taken place there before every six years. Once again I think republicans are trying to create a situation on what has always been a peaceful family day out.

[An Fear Dubh]

Neighbours talk to each other, and treat each others property with respect. And common property is not taken over or used without first telling your neighbour and getting an understanding that such use is satisfactory. Refusing to acknowledge the 85% majority of the Carnlough community is not showing any respect. It is in fact sending a message to that 85% of the community that the Orange Order do not think much of them. And do not want to consider their fears and apprehension. If this is as you describe then the Orange Order need to explain that to the residents face to face. It is obvious to everyone at the moment that republicans do not want issues at this time, so they would not create situations. The Orange Order need to get off this high horse and accept that in future they need the support of the majority of the host community. To get that support they must deal face to face and directly to the host community, regardless of who the leaders of that host community is.

I think this idea that these parades are economic benifit to the host area is a myth. Most shops close, even in Belfast City centre on the 12th very few shops are open. Many mobile hot food stands, ice-cream vans and other traveling ventures do profit but they are not the local economy. Last year or the year before a study was done of all the hotels in Belfast. Most had lots of empty rooms, few had bookings that were designed because of the 12th and those that did that were asked seemed to be there by accident on the 12th. Most hotels that had restraunts could be booked for meals on the 12th. Only one hotel in south Belfast (near the Field) was fully booked for meals. But they had rooms available.

I think the Orange Order do not respect their Catholic neighbours and look for excuses not to talk to them. It is time they showed respect then they might get tolerance.

[Wasp]

AFD first of all the population of Carnlough as a whole know months in advance of the parade,its route, its size etc etc. Now have you been to the twelth in Carnlough? I have and the shops/pubs/amusements do not close. They are packed with families.

From experience the whole population know that this is a peaceful parade, it does not walk through Catholic housing estates, it doesn't take long to pass, etc etc. So the situation sinn fein are creating is not there until they put there oar in.

Given the fact that the parade is only once every six years, everyone knows the route which has no flashpoints, the parade is made up of locals and those from the surrounding area etc etc it is sinn fein who are not being tolerant, it is them that are creating problems. #

If I was the OO then on this parade I would refuse to talk to the sinn fein trouble makers given all the facts of the parade. It is them that is not being neigbourly and it is them who do not respect their Protestant neighbours.

[Jim]

Yes they may know the route and etc months in advance but it doesnt make it any less of an issue that the OO wont talk to them first.

Maybe its a bit different from in Belfast, it might be a peaceful day out for all I know, but I know from experience that in Belfast it is not.

If the OO refuse to talk to Sinn Fein about it then they're just going to make lives harder for themselves, or maybe they enjoy the bad publicity?

[An Fear Dubh]

It very well might normally be a peaceful parade, and most may know the route it normally takes. The point about talking to the majority of the local residents, is to ensure that their fears and apprehension is calmed, as that is what good neighbours do. They treat each other with respect and tolerance.

How can you ask for the majority of local people in Carnlough to show tolerance when the same tolerance is not being reciprocated to them by the Orange Order?

We hear you say this is a family event, how inclusive do the majority of local families from Carnlough feel when the Orange Order will not even talk to them?

Blaming it on Sinn Féin is just an excuse to avoid talking, and it is a poor excuse and with the new Assembly is no longer an excuse accepted by the majority of both communities. Sinn Féin is now an equal partner in the government here and of the Orange Order.

Wasp you want tolerance then show tolerance. Respect is earned.

[Harry]

The parade organisers or someone should talk with local residents. We can't go on not talking anymore and we aren't dong ourselves any favours by refusing to meet with local peole

[Wasp]

AFD respect works both ways. Sinn fein were up in arms about Kilkeel saying the re-routing was a calculated insult to nationalists and that was walking through a loyalist area. Did sinn fein talk to the residents there or did they demand there right to march.

Carnlough is not your typical confrontational parade, it is far from it and why residents need to be talked to when they know all the facts is beyond me.

Is once every six years, for a few hours too much to ask for when the parade does not walk through nationalist estates. Carnlough is a small village and it does not have sprawling housing estates,

[An Fear Dubh]

Local residents must be acknowledged, and engaged from which ever community, be it Kilkeel, or Carnlough.

Local residents knowing the facts, and the march organisers acknowledging the host community and giving re-assurance. Are not the same thing. The latter shows the will of the parade organisers, to be open and good neighbours. And if this is beyond you then perhaps it is time to reflect upon yourself and your intolerant attitude.

[earl]

The OO sure know how to play into SF's hands EVERY SINGLE TIME. If the facts on the history of the route are correct, then this march has more positives than negatives going for it, therefore talking isn't going to stop it. If anything, if residents try to refuse the parade and circumstances are as rosy as mentioned here, then it's the locals who would look like bigots. As it is, SF have easily made the OO look like ignorant bigots, AGAIN. If SF didn't want anyone to know that they are involved in something, then no-one would know, but in this case, SF are very public, as they know their involvement will get a certain reaction, and they've gotten the reaction they wanted and predicted.

So let's say the history of this march is true and it always passes off peacefully. All of a sudden, SF comes along, and demands talks, (did some of the residents ask, I'd have to assume they did), which the OO refuses. Now, all the 'couldn't care less' locals see the OO ignoring contact with local residents. Their attitude changes from 'couldn't care less' to 'no march without talks'. Now, they are against the OO where as before they weren't. The situation escalates, and bang. another contentious march is born. Either way, SF wins. Either they 'helped' the locals get talks with the OO, or they fabricate another flashpoint to exploit at a later date.

So why does the OO continually follow the same predictable script that allows them to be so easily manipulated and exploited? Why can't they just talk in the first place, and see what happens?

[An Fear Dubh]

The point that if Sinn Féin did not want their involvement known then the involvement of SF would not be known, is a valid one. And that Orange Order reaction is predictable, once the local SF rep made a public statement.

I agree with most of this possible assessment from Earl, but I acknowledge I do not know the facts personally.

But I think Jim touched on a point that is sometimes under-estimated. That is that SF very much pride themselves on the their grassroots activists. I remember talking to a southern journalist who was up from Dublin covering the elections in the north. He wanted a guide to all the polling stations in West Belfast and beyond, and I got roped in. I took him round them all and passed palmed him off onto someone else for north Belfast, etc. The next day we bumped into each other and I got a free lunch on his account, a cheap one!! He said what surprised him was that people like myself and others knew so many people personally, it was like close family voting for another family member/friend based on the say so of a trusted family member. The politics was a side issue. But as Jim pointed out, the political work never stops for the grassroot activist. Be it errant children, sick relatives, bin refuse collection, watching the house while on holiday, neighbour disputes, the list goes on. People know they will get an ear and a response. It might not always be the one they want, but they know it will be an attempt at being fair. So when they say, it is voting time, they do not have to ask who will you vote for you just tell them the order to put them in, and they love tactical voting!

I seriously believe that the Orange Order are incapable of acknowledging local catholic neighbours, and will use any excuse to never talk. The exception to this of course is when they are given assurances prior to engaging in talks as to the expected outcome of these talks.