Loyalists picket GAA team

[Shades40]

More to the point why did NO Unionist councilor's DUP or UUP bar the mayor attend the ceremony, apparently they where protesting because the club got funding for their ground why the need for the flags I don't know maybe it's an identity crisis their having.

[Wasp]

The protest was because they got funding and because a sectarian organisation was involved. Earl while from various debates I will say that the GAA in the south is not as bad as the GAA in the north. Fact remains the GAA in the north anyway is sectarain and actively promotes sectarianism no matter what claims are made to show they are changing.

I do not agree with the protest, but I do not agree either that any sectarian sporting body should receive funding etc. When the GAA makes vast improvements then I do not have a problem, until then I like many others do.

[bearhunter]

How much funding does the OO get Wasp? (And they are a kind of sporting body, I always think they are like the ramblers, promoting nice walks in the country for half the population....)

[Wasp]

I don't know how much funding thy get. They are a religious order not a sporting body. Yes they do promote country walks among other things to raise money for charities.

[bearhunter]

Religious, clutural, sporting whatever....I and many like me see the OO as a sectarian organisation which receives official funding. You and many like you see the GAA as a sectarian organisation that receives official funding. I suppose the only way to settle this impasse is to see which gets the most funding.

[Wasp]

Setanta you obviously have no idea about how Protestants in N.Ireland feel about the GAA. To do with your post I could point out Catholics or even just you could have joined the RUC/UDR etc, you could be chief constable, the RUC didn't name stations after dead terrorists nor did they ban for example GAA members from jopining, nor do they have trophys named after terrorists but republicans still viewed them as sectarian. So stop trying to brush over the facts and get real.

Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide.

The basic aim states:

The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.

Rule 15 states:
The National Flag should be displayed at all matches. Where the National Anthem precedes a game, teams must stand to attention facing the Flag in a respectful manner.

To do with the naming of certain clubs and fields the GAA said they can name themwhat they want. This alone is promoting and allowing sectarianism. Don't forget these same republicans who have clubs named after them were part of an organisation that carried out countless sectarian attacks. The GAA up here is mainly played by republicans and nationalists, many used the sport to promote political beliefs as well as to commemorate terrorists.

On the Royal Princes attending the rugby game at Croke park the GAA felt that the presence of the Princes may prove to be too controversial after the events of 21st nov. 1920. 87 years later the GAA and their supporters are still too sensitive, yet they expect the us to accept sinn fein in government 10years after their 'ceasefire'.

Robert Kerr, speaking on behalf of one club, said since the GAA’s formation there had been an “association with nationalism and republicanism”.

“Many of the clubs throughout Belfast and the country have been named after republicans,” he said.

Or perhaps the Mairead Farrell Camogie tournament or the Michael McVerry cup. would help you realize their sectarian nature.

The funny thing about rule 21 is that you can be a sectarian murderer, belong to a group that carries out sectarian murders, yet a policeman who tried to stop sectarain murders was not allowed to join. This speaks volumes to do with the sectarian GAA.

The GAA president Nicky Brennan offically opened a new GAA field named in honour of the INLA terrorist and hunger striker, Kevin Lynch. Did the new president, the GAA clubs and members breached Rule 7A?
Rule 7A states:
“Non-Party Political
(a) The Association shall be non-party political. Party political questions shall not be discussed at its meetings, and no Committee, Club, Council or representative thereof shall take part, as such, in any party political movement. A penalty of up to twenty four weeks suspension may be imposed for infringement.”

You can claim all you want about the GAA, the points above prove in reality Protestants/Unionists are not welcomed, the sport is far from inclusive, it promotes and commemorates terrorisim, these terrorists were part of an organisation which is neck high in blood from sectarian attacks. Do you now see where we are coming from???

[Wasp]

Setanta you really do not have a clue about Unionism/loyalism.

You asked me what was the problem with this.

Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide.

The basic aim states:

The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.

Rule 15 states:
The National Flag should be displayed at all matches. Where the National Anthem precedes a game, teams must stand to attention facing the Flag in a respectful manner.

Are you being serious or do you just not know anything about up here? I will highlight the problem for Unionists because you obviously haven't a clue about Unionism. So if soccer clubs had a rule that granted membership to those who would further the aim of keeping the 6 counties within the Union etc would you have a problem with that??

Again proving your complete lack of knowledge and sensitiveness of Unionisim you wrote

'There's also clubs and trophys named after Parnell, Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Thomas Davis who were all Protestants. Do you have a problem with them?
Is it that the GAA allows locals to celebrate local heros or is it just the modern Republican ones that should be banned?
The main Tournament is named after a Protestant. Sam Maguire. Is that a sectarian organisation?'

If local heroes are people who were part of an organisation that carried out sectarian murders then I have a big problem with them. To try and explain the situation, if soccer had trophys and grounds etc named after Billy Wright, Michael Stone, Lenny Murphy, Adair etc would you be claiming the same nonesense that local clubs have a right to celebrate their heroes and the sport is open to all and Catholics can join etc. An LVF leader was a Catholic so we could point out that one of the trophys or grounds was named after a LVF man who was also a Catholic, and then ask you how is that sectarian.

To do with rule 21, the fact is it did exist and it was mainly Northern Irish GAA members who wanted to keep it. Or am I wrong on this point?

Kevin Lynch was a convicted INLA terrorist who committed suicide or starved himself to death depending on how you view it, so it doesn't matter what he did in his earlier days etc. So if Billy Wright was young soccer player of the year, you wouldn't mind a sporting ground or whatever being named after him, in a sport that is meant to be inclusive??

Again you are showing your ignorance and complete lack of knowledge by saying 'Is loving a Culture that excludes no one sectarian just because it's not YOUR culture WASP?'

Nice try to twist things around, you know exactly what the issue is with Unionists, while you try and make the GAA out to be inclusive and Protestants can join etc, the facts on what really is going on is there for all to see. You really haven't a clue about how Unionists feel about all this. Just remember several loyalist paramilitary members have been Catholic, so would this make soccer open to all if grounds were named after these loyalist paramilitaries.

Because somwthing is not my culture is absolutely nothing to do with this. Again you just try and twist things around with the if it's republican then it's great but if it's Unionist then it's sectarian etc etc.

[Wasp]

Setanta obviously you haven't grasped the problems here, and you certainly don't understand the problems. Your answers but he wasn't etc just show how you are sidestepping the issue. Billy Wright is a hero to some, but according to you he is just a drug dealer to everyone. Is being know as the biggest culprits in child abuse heroic, because the ira have dished out the biggest instances of child abuse.

To do with the OO, it is a religious order not a sporting body. I will ask you again the following questions and please try to stick to the questions without going off on one.

(1) If soccers ruling body had a rule that granted membership to those who would further the aim of keeping the 6 counties within the Union etc would you have a problem with that??

(2) If soccer had trophys and grounds etc named after Billy Wright, Michael Stone, Lenny Murphy, Adair etc would you have a problem with that??

(3) If Billy Wright or Michael Stone etc were young soccer players of the year, would you mind a sporting ground or whatever being named after him, in a sport that is meant to be inclusive??

(4) If soccer's ruling body stated that The National Flag should be displayed at all matches. Where the National Anthem precedes a game, teams must stand to attention facing the Flag in a respectful manner. Would you have a problem with that.

(5) If the soccer ruling body wanted to remove the rule of not allowing say Irish security force members to take part and Northern soccer clubs wanted the ruling kept, would you feel that this would make Catholics in N.Ireland inclusive in soccer?

(6) Given the facts that various clubs, fields and trophies are named after Loyalist paramilitaries, given the content of the questions here would you still feel soccer is inclusive for Catholics?

[earl]

I'll have a crack at those questions WASP if you don't mind.

wasp said:

(1) If soccers ruling body had a rule that granted membership to those who would further the aim of keeping the 6 counties within the Union etc would you have a problem with that??
Yes, I would have a problem with it, as I'm a Republican, not a Unionist, but I wouldn't consider this rule sectarian as it has nothing to do with religion. Catholic unionists wouldn't have any problem with it, just as Republican Protestants don't have any problems with the GAA. This depends on political viewpoint, not religious background

(2) If soccer had trophys and grounds etc named after Billy Wright, Michael Stone, Lenny Murphy, Adair etc would you have a problem with that??
Yes I would have a problem with it, just as I have a problem with some of the few out of the 100's of GAA grounds that have dubious names.

(3) If Billy Wright or Michael Stone etc were young soccer players of the year, would you mind a sporting ground or whatever being named after him, in a sport that is meant to be inclusive??
see above answer

(4) If soccer's ruling body stated that The National Flag should be displayed at all matches. Where the National Anthem precedes a game, teams must stand to attention facing the Flag in a respectful manner. Would you have a problem with that.
Being a Republican, then yes I would have a problem with it, but I would not consider it sectarian, as there is no mention of religion.

(5) If the soccer ruling body wanted to remove the rule of not allowing say Irish security force members to take part and Northern soccer clubs wanted the ruling kept, would you feel that this would make Catholics in N.Ireland inclusive in soccer?
I don't see how including the Irish security forces has anything to do with religion, and considering that the Irish security forces are not involved in NI in any way, it'd be business as usual. No need for such a rule. The GAA has no equivalent rule as it has been abolished, therefore it can't be used as a stick to beat the GAA anymore. And are you suggesting that the security forces of NI are purely Protestant for Protestants? Because the only way you could be right on this viewpoint was if you believe this. This vindicates why the nationalist community never trusted NI's security forces

(6) Given the facts that various clubs, fields and trophies are named after Loyalist paramilitaries, given the content of the questions here would you still feel soccer is inclusive for Catholics?
If the entire organisation was set up that way, you'd have a point, but it's not. You are using isolated cases and anomolies to paint the entire organisation. Are there any cups in any competition in NI named after a Catholic? Genuine question, as I don't know. The biggest most saught after cup on this island is named after a Protestant, Sam Maguire.

[Wasp]

Thanks Earl for an honest reply, I appreciate it. On what is sectarian and what isn't classed as sectarian here is an example. During riots newsreporters say sectarian riots erupted between loyalists and republicans, no mention of religion there but they are still classed as sectarian. If a sporting body has names commemorating what a very large section of the community find offensive, then that is deemed sectarian.

On your reply to question 1 I see where you are coming from, but politics and religion go hand in hand here with a few exceptions.

Glad to hear you feel that way to do with the second question and I totally agree.

On question 4, again it is widely reported about the Catholic nationalists and the Protestant Unionists, again religion and politics mix with a few exceptions. But I can agree to disagree with what you view as sectarian and what I view as sectarian.

On question 5 I used the Irish security fores as an example, British security forces are the security force in N.Ireland, considering the majority of people want to remain British and having a rule which barred these security force members from taking part has an obvious effect on those who wish to remain British. In the sameway barring the Irish security forces would have an obvious effect on those who wish for a U.Ireland. Can you see my point?

On question 6, if you mean GAA cups being named after Catholics then would Maraid Farrel answer that. If you meant soccer, I don't even know if there are any cups named after Protestants nevermind Catholics. You claim these to be isolated cases. Many clubs and fields are named after republicans up here, so they are hardly isolated cases. Two trophies at least named after terrorists is hardly isolated either. Nor is aspiring to the aim of a 32 county Ireland in granting membership to those who apply.

Even if these were 'isolated' incidents, don't you think the fact they happened means that these issues need to be addressed?

[Wasp]

Setanta accuse me of what you want. Again this is sport and to do with the OO, I wouldn't condem Catholic religious orders. I believe the GAA in N.Ireland is much worse than in the republic. That doesn't mean everyone who takes part or supports it is a terrorist or a terrorist supporter.

Anyway at least you see my point about the clubs, to do with the ban IT DID exist and the majority at least of Northern GAA members wanted it to remain, and discrimination does exist in one form or another. Some of the points I made at the start verify this. If you can't see it then fair enough. You have as much right to celebrate and take part in the GAA etc, but don't expect Unionists to feel inclusive. This is because of the points that I have made and points that are perfectly reasonable and understandable from a Unionist point of view.

[Wasp]

Setanta look at the points above and if you don't see that there would be any form of discrimination then that is up to you.

For example having a Union Jack flown in say a factory is deemed as discrimination in the work place because some may find it offensive. Would you not say that Unionists would find many of the points to do with the GAA above as offensive??

[Jim]

Im gonna answer those questions as someone that cant be arsed with the GAA, so its not going to be that biased


(1) If soccers ruling body had a rule that granted membership to those who would further the aim of keeping the 6 counties within the Union etc would you have a problem with that??
Whether we want to believe it or not an association that is based in 6 counties serves the purpose of upholding the state within the union by not integrating with the rest of the island, even if its not intential, so technically, there already is.

(2) If soccer had trophys and grounds etc named after Billy Wright, Michael Stone, Lenny Murphy, Adair etc would you have a problem with that??
Difference is WASP loyalists dont have the same support as republicans do in their community, remember? Ervine said it himself in an interview posted up by Harry, so you arent going to really get it in the first place. Besides, in my opinion hunger strikers (which almost all republicans will look up to)are a bit more respectable then drug dealers like Adair, I'd even respect loyalist hunger strikers, but not drug dealers. Big difference between someone starving for a political cause in any country, and being run out of the country by your own organisation and having a drug empire, isnt there? be honest. Besides, wasn't Billy Wright a GAA player in his youth?

(3) If Billy Wright or Michael Stone etc were young soccer players of the year, would you mind a sporting ground or whatever being named after him, in a sport that is meant to be inclusive??
Why hypothetical situations? Difference is they wherent and they wont have football grounds named after them. More importantly everyone already embraces football, a lot of protestants wouldnt embrace the GAA untill it painted itself red white and blue and put a crown on its head, and you know it.

(4) If soccer's ruling body stated that The National Flag should be displayed at all matches. Where the National Anthem precedes a game, teams must stand to attention facing the Flag in a respectful manner. Would you have a problem with that.
Whats the problem with the tricolour? Again would you feel better if it was a union jack even though the sport has no interest or even any footing in Britain? Its a 32 county organisation and the vast majority that play it are Irish or look at the tricolour as their national flag. Schools in England that play the GAA use a union jack, 'appy? Is it even important what fucking flag is up on a mast? Again, like I said, would you accept it if it was painted red white and blue with a crown? even though it would be meaningless to about 90% of its fans players and even owners and investors?

(5) If the soccer ruling body wanted to remove the rule of not allowing say Irish security force members to take part and Northern soccer clubs wanted the ruling kept, would you feel that this would make Catholics in N.Ireland inclusive in soccer?
But they haven't done that, that situation doesn't exist WASP and soccer is a game embraced by all, its not shunned by people because its in the end an english sport. Whereas the reality with most protestants including yourself, and the GAA is that its embraced by most irish catholics and is proudly an irish game, irish-phobia kicks in quickly, "we're under siege again".

(6) Given the facts that various clubs, fields and trophies are named after Loyalist paramilitaries, given the content of the questions here would you still feel soccer is inclusive for Catholics?
Footballs an international game, the GAA isnt. they arent comparable.

[Wasp]

Jim whether the points are hypothetical or not, whether loyalists have heroes or not, my questions were not to judge or weigh up the facts among the questions. I simply asked if it was the other way around, imagine if it was and answer the points then. I don't care what Billy Wright was, what he played etc, I used him as an example. It is not a case of Irish phobia, it is a case of where some try to say it is inclusive and doesn't discriminate when it certainly does.

Setanta if it is to celebrate their culture and their culture involves commemorating terrorists and is strongly linked with promoting republicanism, then how can you say it is inclusive and doesn't discriminate.

I used soccer as an example. Ok if Unionisim had a sport that promoted loyalism and commemorated loyalist terrorists, had the samepoints as the GAA but only from a loyalist perspective such as promoting N.Ireland remaining in the union etc, could I or any Unionist claim that this sport does not discriminate and is inclusive and open to all??

[Wasp]

Setanta I don't need to try and put your culture down, you and everyone else has the right to celebrate their culture. But the fact remains if part of that culture such as within the GAA celebrates/commemorates/dedicates terrorists etc, then the community that suffered at the hands of these terrorists are left out and whatever organisation that does this CANNOT call itself inclusive and open to all, which includes Unionists.

Unionism is open to everyone, most political ideals are. This is not the point, nor is anyone celebrating their culture. I have proved beyond doubt the proof behind Unionist thinking and feelings about all this. If it is inclusive etc then why has the GAA felt the need to try and change things. If you want to celebrate your culture then that is fine, but don't try and dress something up that is not inclusive as things stand to Unionism.

Could I ask you this question again. IF Unionisim had a sport that promoted loyalism and commemorated loyalist terrorists, had the samepoints as the GAA but only from a loyalist perspective such as promoting N.Ireland remaining in the union etc, could I or any Unionist claim that this sport does not discriminate and is inclusive and open to all??