statue farce

[Wasp]

Thats were your complete bias comes in "murderers, gallant men" etc. Fuck the UDR, they wherent gallant and neither were the RUC or any other state force, I never saw any gallantry from these men, only cruel treatment to people where I lived.

First of all I acknowledged some see the ira as heroes etc, but if you never saw any gallantry from the udr or the ruc etc then you have lead a very very sheltered life. They saved countless lives and thousands are walking today because of their bravery. You should have went further from where you lived and you would have saw alot more than your perception. I am not going to say they did no wrong because they are human beings like the rest of us but perhaps you could look up the army bomb disposal unit here to see gallantry or even the ira and the coalman. There you will see who the cowards were and who the brave were.

Who paid for the republican statue? that was what the debate was about mate, who pays for it. I thought it was pretty much agreed that if the community pays for it itself, no one gives a shit, its always been that way with murals and symbols and whatever else you have. Did the council pay for any IRA statue? If you know, tell me.

Ok so what you are saying is that a 14 year old boy offends because he was in the order even though when he left these shores he went on to condemn extremists who attacked Catholics? But anyway you would be ok with it if people from the Unionist community erected statues in honour of uvf/uda/lvf men in the middle of predominately Unionist towns as lonmg as they pay for it themselves??

Funny I thought republicans had problems with flags being flown around the twelth in Unionist towns and areas, by flags I mean the red hand and the Union Jack. So what is it to be, offence at the flag of the country, offence at a statue honouring a 14 yr old who left here and went on to become a PM yet allowing ira statues in the middle of mainly nationalist towns and villages.

Its always been the same with republicans, they moan about anything British/UNIONIST/Loyalist yet ignore there ownside, they greet about house searches etc yet support people being blown to bits and unarmed people being tortured and executed.

[Wasp]

Here is some more on Massey.

Massey not only fulfilled his promise to oppose the industrial militants but he also established an independent public service commissioner to appoint and promote public servants without political cronyism and religious discrimination.

I think the whole thing is narrowminded bigotry and sinn fein have perhaps shot themselves in the foot with this one.

[Jim]

I've led anything but a sheltered life tbh, I saw what the RUC done and I saw what the British army done, and it wasnt gallantry, thats all I said. I know they defused bombs, probably saved a fair few lives in the process, they also locked up hundreds and shot as many others. I don't see the IRA as gallant either, I just see them as something that was inevitable for the time.

No one has a problem with union flags being flown somewhere up the arse of the shankill or some town or village, it doesnt concern me. What am I going to do about it anyway? What is anyone going to do about it? You seem to have as much problems as "republicans" do with this lark.

I don't know anything about NZ or its problems, I'll assume in that period working classes had the same problem we did and the same problem Britain did and most other developed countries. If so then industrial militants where part of their time, people only take so much from privalged people before they kick up and the treatment of people by the higher classes/employers was appauling, the living conditions where terrible so opposing industrial militants instead of co-operating with them doesnt sound like a big feat to me.

[Blue Angel]

i looked up some about this issue jim - ferguson was an odd mixture of conservative and progressive- he used troops and police on striking workers who were to my mind in the right and yet at the same time he had far more forward looking policies regarding maoris than most politicians in NZ at the time.

[Wasp]

I've led anything but a sheltered life tbh, I saw what the RUC done and I saw what the British army done, and it wasnt gallantry, thats all I said. I know they defused bombs, probably saved a fair few lives in the process, they also locked up hundreds and shot as many others. I don't see the IRA as gallant either, I just see them as something that was inevitable for the time.

Yes they did lock up hundreds but that was on both sides and although there were wrongful arrests there was plenty of justified arrests. If it were not for the security forces then the death toll would have been much much higher. So there faults such as in wrongful arrests which happened to bothsides is far outweighed by the lives they saved. Like how many of us would stand ontop of a petrol tanker to try and difuse a loaded bomb or stand in a doorway so people could escape a bomb and take the full force of the blast which saved countless lives.

No one has a problem with union flags being flown somewhere up the arse of the shankill or some town or village, it doesnt concern me. What am I going to do about it anyway? What is anyone going to do about it? You seem to have as much problems as "republicans" do with this lark.

No-one has a problem, ffs Jim you have been in England too much, sinn fein and at times the sdlp are very very vocal concerning flags but are extremely silent concerning ira memorials in the middle of towns and villages. It is the usual hate anything British and be offended by it.

[Jim]

wasp said:

I've led anything but a sheltered life tbh, I saw what the RUC done and I saw what the British army done, and it wasnt gallantry, thats all I said. I know they defused bombs, probably saved a fair few lives in the process, they also locked up hundreds and shot as many others. I don't see the IRA as gallant either, I just see them as something that was inevitable for the time.

Yes they did lock up hundreds but that was on both sides and although there were wrongful arrests there was plenty of justified arrests. If it were not for the security forces then the death toll would have been much much higher. So there faults such as in wrongful arrests which happened to bothsides is far outweighed by the lives they saved. Like how many of us would stand ontop of a petrol tanker to try and difuse a loaded bomb or stand in a doorway so people could escape a bomb and take the full force of the blast which saved countless lives.

No one has a problem with union flags being flown somewhere up the arse of the shankill or some town or village, it doesnt concern me. What am I going to do about it anyway? What is anyone going to do about it? You seem to have as much problems as "republicans" do with this lark.

No-one has a problem, ffs Jim you have been in England too much, sinn fein and at times the sdlp are very very vocal concerning flags but are extremely silent concerning ira memorials in the middle of towns and villages. It is the usual hate anything British and be offended by it.

And its those sort of arrests that lead to police states, "well we locked up hundreds who are innocent and we know that but we got some legitimate ones!!!", its not acceptable in the 20th or 21st century where we are supposed to be a developed civilised nation. Because it happened on both sides doesnt make it right, either. Most of those arrests ended up having people join the IRA to plant bombs and carry out shootings so it defeated its own purpose.

I'm in Ireland every few months and still talk to all my mates back there, some of who are SF members. I know how vocal they can be but I've never heard about SF or the SDLP complain about loyalist flags in loyalist areas, they've complained about union flags on state buildings because we still are not represented symbollically in this state, and I think its a legitimate cause for yapping.

Right, IRA or hunger strike memorials are never paid for by the council that I know of, certainly not in Belfast anyway, money is raised elsewhere. I'm talking about statues funded for by the council. I dont know a lot about this fella who you are on about being NZ PM, its an achievement and I couldnt care if he was a unionist or not, thats not the point, I feel statues should be put up by their deeds and they dont have to be people just from the north either.

I've always felt that anything to do with republicans in the city center has never been accepted, we'd not even get a tricolour beside a union flag nevermind a big fuck off statue of someone like Connolly or another figure famous for something other than Republicanism. Yet its perfectly acceptable by the establishment of this state to have them of union flags and Carson.

[Wasp]

And its those sort of arrests that lead to police states, "well we locked up hundreds who are innocent and we know that but we got some legitimate ones!!!", its not acceptable in the 20th or 21st century where we are supposed to be a developed civilised nation. Because it happened on both sides doesnt make it right, either. Most of those arrests ended up having people join the IRA to plant bombs and carry out shootings so it defeated its own purpose.

So if loaylists were killing at will would you support the police arresting suspects even though they are acting on intelligence that may be wrong or inaccurate? So wrongful arrest is as good as excuse as any to plant bombs? I have had my run ins with the police and infact taken complaints against them but it didn't give me the urge to blow people to bits.

I'm in Ireland every few months and still talk to all my mates back there, some of who are SF members. I know how vocal they can be but I've never heard about SF or the SDLP complain about loyalist flags in loyalist areas, they've complained about union flags on state buildings because we still are not represented symbollically in this state, and I think its a legitimate cause for yapping.

FFS sake Jim I can't believe that you actually believe that. Have you not listened or read the news at all. Here is a few examples:

Sinn Féin Limavady Town councillor Anne Brolly complaine daboult lyalist flags and buntings. She said "Nationalists living in this area feel under threat from this activity. People have a right to live free from fear and sectarian intimidation but the number of flags and bunting is having exactly this effect."

The sdlp described the Holywood Exchange store (ikea) as "an upmarket Orange hall". SDLP Youth Chairman Gary McKeown said: "Artist plans for the new IKEA store quite clearly depict a union jack and a red-and-white Northern Ireland flag flying in full glory outside the proposed store.

Jim you only have to read local papers to hear about how often sinn fein and the sdlp complain about the Union Jack being flown from flag poles during the marching season.

Right, IRA or hunger strike memorials are never paid for by the council that I know of, certainly not in Belfast anyway, money is raised elsewhere. I'm talking about statues funded for by the council. I dont know a lot about this fella who you are on about being NZ PM, its an achievement and I couldnt care if he was a unionist or not, thats not the point, I feel statues should be put up by their deeds and they dont have to be people just from the north either.

But this isn't a memorial to an orangeman, there has been thousands of orangemne/women through the years in this area and there are no statues to any of them. This statue was unveiled by an sdlp councillor and it was erected for him being a famous son of the borough. Simple as that.

[Shades40]

Considering how flags have to used to specifically intimidate people they should all be banned, in Lurgan Unionists have flags up everywhere all year round, Nationalist areas have them up once a year, if a Nationalist is seen by the police putting a flag on a lamp post he is arrested on the other hand the police help Unionists erect them, why the difference? this caused a serious row last year, as for Massey isn't he the saint of farmers? he sounds ok to me.

[Jim]

wasp said:

So if loaylists were killing at will would you support the police arresting suspects even though they are acting on intelligence that may be wrong or inaccurate? So wrongful arrest is as good as excuse as any to plant bombs? I have had my run ins with the police and infact taken complaints against them but it didn't give me the urge to blow people to bits.

Firstly I'm not a loyalist supporter so thats a hard question to answer, since I'm a republican and dont care if loyalist hard men get shot or locked up. Wrongful arrests and the way they treated those people and their families was a reason why so many joined the IRA and in turn ended up stepping up violence, thats all I'm saying, I didnt justify anything, I'd rather not give me opinion on that. Having a few run ins with the police is different than having half the British army and RUC bust through your door at 4am rushing up the stairs, busting through your bedroom door and having their guns stuck in your face while you dont know whats going on, having the shite kicked out of you in the back of a landrover and then hauled down for interrogation for days/weeks. just because you could be one of them or you could not be.

FFS sake Jim I can't believe that you actually believe that. Have you not listened or read the news at all. Here is a few examples:

Sinn Féin Limavady Town councillor Anne Brolly complaine daboult lyalist flags and buntings. She said "Nationalists living in this area feel under threat from this activity. People have a right to live free from fear and sectarian intimidation but the number of flags and bunting is having exactly this effect."

If nationalists are living in that area too then its a mixed area, then no flags should be up at all, not a tricolour, not a union jack, not anything. I've never heard of SF complain about loyalist flags in the arse hole of a loyalist area.

The sdlp described the Holywood Exchange store (ikea) as "an upmarket Orange hall". SDLP Youth Chairman Gary McKeown said: "Artist plans for the new IKEA store quite clearly depict a union jack and a red-and-white Northern Ireland flag flying in full glory outside the proposed store.

I completely agree with the SDLP. What would you say if it had a big yellow ulster flag and a tricolour instead? You would call it SF's swedish headquarters.

But this isn't a memorial to an orangeman, there has been thousands of orangemne/women through the years in this area and there are no statues to any of them. This statue was unveiled by an sdlp councillor and it was erected for him being a famous son of the borough. Simple as that.

That doesn't bother me, I said that already. I just said you cant compare it to a hunger strike memorial that isnt paid for by the council or even wanted by the council.

[Blue Angel]

first off i agree with jim about the ikea store (i can't believe stuff like this passes as politics in the north some times though) just dont have any flags and then there's nothing for either side to get whingey about.

Second the whole statue row is now making both sides look foolish - i have to say sinn fein look more foolish on this occassion though in my opinion. People from new zealand have been commenting on the story on the bbcs report and they are frankly bemused at the whole thing and see it as just cheap sectarianism.

I really have to say in this instance where i sitting on limavady council i would actually vote on the unionist side on this issue as i think it is time wasting and petty. The new zealand foreign minister said that seeking to deny the history of another culture is pointless and destructive and neither side cann afford to be doing that any longer in the north as they have done in the past. Ferguson is not some arch-bigot or extremist as pointed out already -he is famous because of tractors and and been premier of NZ. For heavens sake his biggest business partner was henry ford whose family were from the opposite tradition on the island.

Some one in sinn fein's higher echelons might like to suggest to the members at limavady that this is not an issue worth wasting time on and just makes all sides look like clowns to a larger world.

[Wasp]

Jim Kilrea is mixed, I believe there is a Unionist community in Crossmaglen (albeit tiny) and many other areas yet there are tri-colours flying as well as ira memorials. So are you saying they should be taken down. Now I am opposed to anyone going into a nationalist estate and erecting Unionist flags and vice versa. But sinn fein have been very vocal concerning flags in largely Unionist towns so why the double standards concerning flags in largely nationalist towns.

IMO certain flags and how often they are displayed, painting kerb stones, murals at entrances to estates and even signs in Irish in certain areas is simply marking out territory. I do not however find the tri-colour intimidating flying say in the falls road as this is an area I have to goto, but when ira is wrote on it then I do find it intimidating.

[Jim]

tiny communities doesnt mean its mixed, it means its tiny. Crossmaglen isnt a place we can sit and say this about because its probably the most hardline republican area on the entire island, if you think west belfast is bad you should take a trip to Crossmaglen, its infamous.

If it is the case though then SF are clearly in the wrong this time, I'll accept that.

The last time I saw a tricolour with "IRA" wrote on it, it was a picture of one ontop of a bonfire

[Wasp]

Ok maybe Crossmaglen was a poor example but as I said there are plenty of other places. Anyway at least you acknowledge that if this is the case then sinn fein are clearly wrong and all credit to you.

On an added note a while back Billy Leonard whom alot of people suspect as being an informer complained heavily about a man being allowed to stand outside a certain bar wearing a rangers top. He wanted doorstaff to move the person from the public footpath because apparently it was intimidating to customers even though it is a mixed bar and is owned by a Protestant.

BTW the man in question was along with a few friends and didn't try to force the issue of him getting into the bar which was during the day, so he stood outside with his girlfriend before moving on.

Anyway a while later he tried to get gaa supporters returning from a match into the bar wearing there colours and carrying flags. Unfortunately for him and to his own dismay he was told no colours in the bar and that if rangers tops were not allowed in the bar then no top is allowed nevermind flags. He protested but eventually realized it was a no go matter and returned later without the tops and flags.

I think he needs a rethink concerning equality on these matters.

[Blue Angel]

right it isn't the most detailed ever biography but its a site better than wikipedia's entry on ferguson :-

www.ulsterscotsagency.com/williammassey.asp

and i shall be presenting a few more article from there to maybe as they become very nearly republican on some of them

[Blue Angel]

since the biography tells you he returned to ireland to protest home rule and support carson and craig this is probably why sinn fein have problems with him - i still don't see that as reason to remove the statue though...