statue farce

[Wasp]

I can't split a thread so I though I would create a new one where everyone can give their views and continue of from where we left off on the Protestant exodus of Londonderry.

[Wasp]

my last post concerning this was

'There are and has been many more Orangemen/women than Massey and they do not have staues in their honour so IMO sinn fein are clutching at straws to try and be offended. He left Limavady at the age of 14 so in reality he wasn't an Orangeman when he was here he was a teenager and a young teenager at that. I have read elsewhere that he made anti-Catholic speeches as an Orangemna in Limavady so given his age I find that hard to believe.

Anyway Massey was born on 26 March 1856 in Limavady, and arrived in the City of Auckland on 11 December 1870 and settled in Taranaki. On 10 July 1912 Massey was sworn in as Prime Minister, and on the 17 December the Reform party returned to office. It was the largest majority Massey ever commanded as Prime Minister. He died on 10 May 1925.

I believe his statue was unveiled by an SDLP Councillor.'

[Wasp]

This statue was erected in honour of a famous son who went on to become pm of another country. It is not in full public view, it has a small plaque about him being PM of N.Zealand and it is far from prominent.

Now let's take Crossmaglen where a horrible looking monstrosity sits in the middle of it in FULL public view. This statue commemorates the ira who commited horrific crimes against Protestants and their ownkind. Compare this statue with a 14 year old orangeboy who went onto become PM of N.Z. Why are sinn fein doing there usual double standards? There are many others in full public view such as Bellaghy, Carrickmore, Dungiven, Kilrea etc etc.

Ok there are those who view the ira as heroes but there are a million plus on this part of the UK who don't and none of us can deny there horrific crimes, even republicans here admit that.

Now lets take convicted IRA murderer Paul Butler concerning the erection of a monument in Lisburn City Centre to the gallant men and women of the Ulster Defence Regiment. He said:

'This monument, which will be erected on Council-owned land with the sanction of Lisburn Council’s unionist majority, will stand as an indictment of the sectarian and exclusively unionist agenda which has been pursued by this Council virtually since its inception.'

When the UDR came into being on the 1st April 1970, it had a strength of 2440 soldiers, of which 946 were Catholics. In percentage terms that equates to 39% of the total. Can the ira say the same to do with Protestant membership in N.Ireland? Unfortunately through intimidation and violence many were forced to leave because of republicans and some of these soldiers would have lived in and around nationalist areas which would have made things very difficult for them. Oh and let's not forget the home of S. MAllon of the sdlp relied on udr protection for years.

Yet the likes of Butler have no problem when it concerns monuments of terrorists and those who carried out mass murder with the intent of mass murder for years and years.

The onus is entirely on sinn fein to set an example, perhaps they could fly the Union Jack outside sinn fein offices in the interests of equality.

[Blue Angel]

um, i suppose we could have a couple of monuments to those republicans who went on to become premiers in places like canada and australia in past years I personally have no problem with the statue of ferguson as i've said before wasp, i have to say if this is all the local sinn fein councillors can find to get in a tizzy about a reality check is in order.

[Wasp]

At last BA, some common sense. This has created alot of anger etc. Anyway what republicans are you on about becoming premiers. Were they ira members or whatever?

[Blue Angel]

nah this was long before the ira mate - the young irelanders era - charles gavan duffy - premier of victoria :- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Gavan_Duffy

in fact quite a few of the young irelanders went on to become prominent elsewhere - including as a US army general:-

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Francis_Meagher

[Blue Angel]

in fact them old rebels get everywhere:) This one is back from before the days when the word republican would have meaning in ireland but it's one my fiancee pointed out to me some time back as every russian school kid learns about him growing up:- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lacy

Getting back to the point in hand i do think the lads from sinn fein on the council in question might want to go and look at the passage about the 'citizen' in james joyce's work as they are in dange of looking like parodies of nationalism and republicanism just like that.

I'm afraid I'd tend to be siding with the unionist point of view on this issue as it is diviseness for the sake of diviseness or at least that's my perception from here.

[Wasp]

Ok BA. I just want to say we have had our run inns and I am still annoyed at one of your comments towards me from before. But I must give credit where credit is due, being from a staunch republican background I most welcome your input here and I wish those councillors would take a leaf from your book. Yes we have major differences and viewpoints but even someone like yourself can side with Unionists here, even if it was only slightly. This gives me hope and lets me know that there are republicans out there who are not buying this from the sinn fein councillors. I am for Limavady tomorrow all being well and I intend to take a photograph of the statue and its surroundings. If not I will do in the near future.

This aside I attended the funeral of a man several months ago outside Antrim, if memory serves he used to be from Drumquin. Anyway I was shown a picture of him in his younger days and to my surprize he was in the b specials then the ruc reserve. His family had to leave the area due to intimidation from republicans and were then subject to intimidation from loyalists when they moved to Larne. Anyway I had no idea about his younger days, I only knew him through his son who served his time with me. Although his son never really discussed politics he made it clear when he did that he would like to see a U.I, but at the sametime he felt alot of resentment towards those who put his family out of his home especially those whom they lived side by side with for years in Drumquin (or the surrounding area).

Anyway I always thought the b specials were 100% Protestant but then again I haven't read up on them.

[Blue Angel]

really to me ferguson is just famous because of his involvement with tractors- for christs sakes there's many a nationalist or republican from rural areas who must have used a massey-ferguson tractor over the years. I agree with the point you raised that given all the other social ills there are that this is time wasting -as i said a better approach would be for them to say that they will like some symbols of their culture up as well (so long as that was handled in a sensible way). Wanting to remove this items does lead to the suspicion on unionists part that it's a ploy to remove all british symbols where possible. If I can see that obvious point from here in London and how it would put the back of unionists up then surely that must be more glaringly obvious on the ground there. There are issues i'd be willing to be stubborn on and defend as a matter of principle - this is not amongst them.

[Wasp]

Again good post BA. Maybe your time in London has swayed you over, nah just joking. I am going over again to see the ac milan match next month and I can't wait. I really do love the place. BTW can you recommend any half decent B&B'S near central London? I usually stay in Bayswater area and sometimes the docklands although that is a bit far out but still really nice.

Maybe my aunt Elizabeth could give me a room. lol

[Blue Angel]

I too used the wonders of the internet to look up some more about ferguson - and found some of his speeches regarding his political positions archived. Yes, he was an unionist and yes he was an orangeman but he in fact was highly critical of militant unionist groups in new zealand in his own time whom he saw as a problem and he condemned them strongly and their attacks on catholics. Why don't the Sinn Fein members suggest someone from the nationalist tradition from nearby who could have a statue to for parity of esteem if that is a concern? Or maybe just stop engaging in such silly nit-picking .

I'd hate to recommend hotels or b and bs in central london wasp - i used to work near bayswater when younger though.

[Wasp]

I like Bayswater as it is normally busy with all the restaurants etc. Anyway do you know any big shopping centres near central London. I am used to the usual oxford/regent st areas.

[Blue Angel]

try lakeside wasp that's fairly gigantic but it takes about a hour to get there or bluewater as well. Or how about visiting places that are a bit more bohemian like camden which is only a few stops away from the west end. Or places like petticoat lane market near liverpool street- one of the few half decent street markets left still surviving here...

[Wasp]

Cheers, I ususally go to Camden but I had a bad expoerience with the Japanese market. What I thought was chocolate covered pofitoroles (or however you speel it) turned out to be something completely different.

I have been to liverpool st station many, many times but I have never been to petticoat lane market. Is it signposted or anything from Liverpool st station? There is a bar near there called dirty dicks which I have had a few pints in.

[Jim]

Thats were your complete bias comes in "murderers, gallant men" etc. Fuck the UDR, they wherent gallant and neither were the RUC or any other state force, I never saw any gallantry from these men, only cruel treatment to people where I lived.

Who paid for the republican statue? that was what the debate was about mate, who pays for it. I thought it was pretty much agreed that if the community pays for it itself, no one gives a shit, its always been that way with murals and symbols and whatever else you have. Did the council pay for any IRA statue? If you know, tell me.