statue farce

[Jim]

Well, lets be honest, they have every right to greet and gurn about Bloody sunday, the army opened fire on a crowd of protestors and shot 26 of them.

Can you picture what would have happened if it happened if the Army opened fire on rioters in Brixton in 1981? Why is it not OK for Sinn Fein to campaign for this when they represent their voters and thus have an obligation to do so as MPs, MLAs, TDs and councillors? Its what they're elected representatives are paid to do. As a Sinn Féin voter, I demand they continue to 'greet and gurn' or I'll vote for someone else.

We are not talking aout legitimacy of the IRA or anything else, we are talking about a legitimate army of a country opening fire on members of its population, in as earl said, cold blood. The IRA were not a legitimate army, they arent the army of any country, they are not held accountable to anyone because they arent considered a real army by the powers that be, the British army are.

Lives of soldiers are always at risk, they are in the army, they are paid for their service and they are made aware of the consequences of rash actions.

How many protestors did it take for them to realise something wasnt right? You shoot one or two, maybe three, they could be IRA, you shoot four, five, six, up to ten more, these people are running for their lives and there is mass panic, does it not become painfully aware the IRA are no where to be seen? You have not saw a gun yet, you have not saw a grenade yet, or a balaclava or even attire that you would expect them to wear, you do not see faces of known IRA suspects that you have been briefed about to look out for, does it seriously take 26 civilians to die for soldiers to realise they are shooting on innocent people?
If so, the British army aren't fit to be anywhere on this island or even on their own island, they are a danger to their people.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl this is just something that we differ on completely. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with anyone not connected to the ira or sinn fein demanding answers etc, but it is quite sickening to hear sinn fein and their supporters greet and gurn about bloody sunday.

I notice a very worrying pattern about you WASP. You seem to think that if SF are involved in anything, that you can use it as an excuse for ignoring those concerns, no-matter how legitimate they are. If I were to use your logic, I'd demand that all OO marches should be banned because they are supported by a party which is led by a bigot. Fortunately, I've a bit more common sense and respect to be doing something so juvenile. I don't dismiss Unionist concerns simply because it doesn't suit me or I find them distasteful. I may not agree with some of those concerns, but I'd never dismiss them out of respect.

Are they going to call for enquiries to do with ALL their atrocities which make b.sunday small in comparison? Is McGuinness going to own up to all his part in his violent campaign with the ira? There supporters see the ira as a legitimate army, so as a legitimate army are they going to be held account for there actions?

Do you not believe that a government should be held accountable for murdering it's own citizens? This is the first world WASP, not the middle of Africa. There are rules and laws that a government of a free democracy MUST obey. If they do not obey those rules, they must be held accountable. No excuses.

Apart from that there are the events before b.sunday which would have made any young soldier nervous,

Are you justifying the murder of those civilians?

there is the fact that McGuinness has been named as firing the first shot,

There's a big difference between a 'fact' and a rumour. If it were a fact, with evidence to prove the fact, then this whole Bloody Sunday tragedy would be out in the open. Clearly this isn't the case. If McGuinness was there and active, you can be sure that the British government would have arrested him a long time ago to take the heat off themselves for the mess. What has happened doesn't make logical sense to this 'fact' of yours. Sounds more like wishful thinking to me. You'd love had there been an SFer involved in something illegal that day to justify your complete disgust at these innocent victims that you harbour deep inside.

there is the fact of rioters endangering life and property, there is the fact that the lives of these soldiers were at risk. It is not as simple as soldiers opening fire on innocent protesters who were simply carrying out a protest.

According to the official report by the British army and the British Home Secretary, they were defending themselves from suspected IRA members who were armed with guns and nail bombs. According to all other eye witnesses on the day, including members of the British and Irish presses, the soldiers fired into an unarmed crowd, and were aiming at fleeing people and those tending the wounded, whereas the soldiers themselves were not fired upon. No British soldier was wounded by gunfire or reported any injuries, nor were any bullets or nail-bombs recovered to back up their claims. Yet you still try and justify it.
I'm going to introduce you to a new word today WASP. It's called 'empathy'. It is defined as follows:
the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

How this works is simple. You put yourself in another mans shoes and try and work out how you'd feel in a similar situation. I can only imagine the hysterics that would emanate from your corner had the roles been reversed and I was dismissing your concerns with a similar attitude. Imagine had those at the LU parade in Dublin had been fired upon. Imagine as they ran away in fear, pipes and drums strung across the street, young boys of 17 being shot in the back as they fled from the Irish army. Imagine those brave souls who would try and tend to the wounded, being shot dead as they tried in vain to rescue their colleagues. Imagine how you'd feel if the Irish army claimed that some of those marchers had weapons and that they had to defend themselves, yet not a single Irish soldier was even scratched, nevermind shot. Imagine the Irish government setting up a sham enquiry which justifys the Irish army's actions in shooting innocent Protestants on that day. Imagine me telling you that they had to do it as a bank and shoe shop on O'Connell street were endangered. Imagine the absolute disgust that you'd feel everytime you heard anyone flippantly waving it away like you were crazy to feel how you do. Imagine how you'd feel if someone tried to justify it to you. How would YOU feel WASP? Please tell us. Do not ignore this question. How would you feel? Do not answer this with a question, or any whataboutery. Be honest. Your integrity is on the line here. In this hypothetical situation described here, where the Irish army shot into the LU march in Dublin, wounding 13 and killing 13, and not a single person ever did time for it nor even got a slap on the wrist, how would you feel?

If it was not an error then there would have been many bloody sundays over and over again.

It was cold-blooded murder of civilians, mostly teenagers. If I give you coffee instead of tea, then that's an error. This was murder. It didn't happen again because if it had, the Irish government would have gotten involved and there would have been all out war on this island.

Remember what the ira done to the 2 soldiers in Belfast? Remember how they fired in the air rather than at the crowd and look what happened to them by the cowardly vermin who executed them. Those poor soldiers knew that if they had of fired at the hostile crowd that they may have ended up in court with the usual rant of shoot to kill bollocks. They chose not to do so and paid for it with their lives.

are you justifying the killing of unarmed civilians? I condemn the IRA actions here, but that still doesn't justify killing an unarmed civilian.

I just don't get it. That 'error' was probably the greatest recruitment drive the IRA ever had. Their ranks swelled with young people who saw the government forces of the country they were in shooting their kin. they thought then that they'd never be treated as equals in the UK if state forces were killing unarmed civilians in a civil rights march. Yet you can be all flippant about it. You don't really care for anyone that was killed that day. You don't care that that 'error' allowed the IRA to expand. You don't care about innocent nationalist/republicans being killed by British forces. This much is clear.

[Wasp]

I am justifying the murder of no-one here, I still maintain it was an error otherwise this would have happened alot more than it did. Secondly McGuiness's role may be a rumour but it could also be equally true.

Setanta prove to me that it is a lie about McGuiness or the ira firing the first shots. Witnesses have said the ira fired first, witnesses saw gunmen open fire and a witness named McGuiness as firing the first shot along with others seeing people throwing nail bombs. Now can you prove these witnesses are lying and the witnesses you believe are telling the truth?

There were ira attacks on the army and civillians before B.Sunday so any wonder soldiers were nervous when they heard the shots being fired at them. My point on sinn fein protesting about this is the FACT that they supported and took part in the bombing and shooting of unarmed civillians for over 30 years, so it is very much a case of its ok for them but not for anyone else and using the army as being a legitiamate force as excuse if feeble to say the least.

[Wasp]

Setanta naming the enquirys findings proves nothing, it simply shows that it may be true. Are you dismissing witnesses who disagree with the version of events that you believe. Again prove it is lies.

[earl]

WASP, you may not have seen the paragraph with the question printed in bold, so I'll reprint it for you. Please answer.

How this works is simple. You put yourself in another mans shoes and try and work out how you'd feel in a similar situation. I can only imagine the hysterics that would emanate from your corner had the roles been reversed and I was dismissing your concerns with a similar attitude. Imagine had those at the LU parade in Dublin had been fired upon. Imagine as they ran away in fear, pipes and drums strung across the street, young boys of 17 being shot in the back as they fled from the Irish army. Imagine those brave souls who would try and tend to the wounded, being shot dead as they tried in vain to rescue their colleagues. Imagine how you'd feel if the Irish army claimed that some of those marchers had weapons and that they had to defend themselves, yet not a single Irish soldier was even scratched, nevermind shot. Imagine the Irish government setting up a sham enquiry which justifys the Irish army's actions in shooting innocent Protestants on that day. Imagine me telling you that they had to do it as a bank and shoe shop on O'Connell street were endangered. Imagine the absolute disgust that you'd feel everytime you heard anyone flippantly waving it away like you were crazy to feel how you do. Imagine how you'd feel if someone tried to justify it to you. How would YOU feel WASP? Please tell us. Do not ignore this question. How would you feel? Do not answer this with a question, or any whataboutery. Be honest. Your integrity is on the line here. In this hypothetical situation described here, where the Irish army shot into the LU march in Dublin, wounding 13 and killing 13, and not a single person ever did time for it nor even got a slap on the wrist, how would you feel?

[Harry]

This thread will emcompass the whole troubles before long. ;D

Bloody Sunday was an horrific chapter of the troubles. It sits along side chapters like Bloody Friday, Enniskillen, The rising sun bar etc etc. We have had many dark days and this was one of them. There is no doubt innocent people died and for whatever reason the BA seriously messed up. Whether it was trigger happy soldiers, incorrect intel or soldiers not prepared for the enviornment they faced it ended in innocent people losing their life. I know how it must seem to nationalists and i have sympathy for their plight but bloody sunday has no more signifigance to me than any other day of the troubles.

I can't have all this about the IRA not being a legit army and as such they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Its a pathetic excuse to attack others while taking no responsibilty for your own actions. What a waste of money the whole bloody sunday episode has been. Millions and millions spent on it. Double whammy.

People deserve answers as to what went wrong on the day but thats where it stops. Soldiers won't drop each other in it because they fight and die for the men at their side, not for the country but for the mates you have. I would imagine internally the mistakes were addressed but actually doing this in public is highly unlikely. Its the nature of the military, its maybe not right but thats how it is. It also has to be taken into account the changes that will of happened to the BA between then and now and an incident like Bloody Sunday would never happen again involving the BA. Lessons will of been learned.

God rest the souls of those who died.

[earl]

harry said:

This thread will emcompass the whole troubles before long. ;D

Bloody Sunday was an horrific chapter of the troubles. It sits along side chapters like Bloody Friday, Enniskillen, The rising sun bar etc etc. We have had many dark days and this was one of them. There is no doubt innocent people died and for whatever reason the BA seriously messed up. Whether it was trigger happy soldiers, incorrect intel or soldiers not prepared for the enviornment they faced it ended in innocent people losing their life. I know how it must seem to nationalists and i have sympathy for their plight but bloody sunday has no more signifigance to me than any other day of the troubles.

I can't have all this about the IRA not being a legit army and as such they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Its a pathetic excuse to attack others while taking no responsibilty for your own actions. What a waste of money the whole bloody sunday episode has been. Millions and millions spent on it. Double whammy.

People deserve answers as to what went wrong on the day but thats where it stops. Soldiers won't drop each other in it because they fight and die for the men at their side, not for the country but for the mates you have. I would imagine internally the mistakes were addressed but actually doing this in public is highly unlikely. Its the nature of the military, its maybe not right but thats how it is. It also has to be taken into account the changes that will of happened to the BA between then and now and an incident like Bloody Sunday would never happen again involving the BA. Lessons will of been learned.

God rest the souls of those who died.

At least you're not calling it an 'error' Harry. I'm not trying to get Bloody Sunday bumped up anyones list of tragedies. I just didn't appreciate the tone WASP was using to describe the whole thing. I don't accept IRA admissions of their errors either. Murder is murder.

[Wasp]

How this works is simple. You put yourself in another mans shoes and try and work out how you'd feel in a similar situation. I can only imagine the hysterics that would emanate from your corner had the roles been reversed and I was dismissing your concerns with a similar attitude.

I do put the shoe on the other foot and you will see by many of my posts that I do. In all honesty I would be angry at what happened but I would look at the bigger picture and try to figure out who exactly was completely innocent and who wasn't. If they were not rioting then they would not have been shot, plastic bullets should have been used instead but I fully support the BA using live ammo if they are being fired at either by guns or bombs. This is why I beleive it was an error, poor judgement and lack of being able to identify who was firing at the soldiers. Much of the blame lies with McGuinness and the ira as much as the BA.

Imagine had those at the LU parade in Dublin had been fired upon. Imagine as they ran away in fear, pipes and drums strung across the street, young boys of 17 being shot in the back as they fled from the Irish army. Imagine those brave souls who would try and tend to the wounded, being shot dead as they tried in vain to rescue their colleagues. Imagine how you'd feel if the Irish army claimed that some of those marchers had weapons and that they had to defend themselves, yet not a single Irish soldier was even scratched, nevermind shot.

Earl with no disrespect your comparisons are unfair and uncomparable.

Imagine the Irish government setting up a sham enquiry which justifys the Irish army's actions in shooting innocent Protestants on that day.

Would you call rioters innocent passers by, would you call people with bombs and guns innocent, would you understand that if loyalist gunmen done the usual and hid behind rioting civillians that there is every chance rioters or those watching rioters getting shot?

Imagine me telling you that they had to do it as a bank and shoe shop on O'Connell street were endangered. Imagine the absolute disgust that you'd feel everytime you heard anyone flippantly waving it away like you were crazy to feel how you do. Imagine how you'd feel if someone tried to justify it to you. How would YOU feel WASP? Please tell us. Do not ignore this question. How would you feel? Do not answer this with a question, or any whataboutery. Be honest. Your integrity is on the line here. In this hypothetical situation described here, where the Irish army shot into the LU march in Dublin, wounding 13 and killing 13, and not a single person ever did time for it nor even got a slap on the wrist, how would you feel?

See answers above. My own opinion is that any completely innocent person killed that day is a tragic loss, those who were involved in rioting then although tragic what did they expect when the ira opened fire and blast bombs were threw at the BA. Anyone with commonsense would have tried to get out of the area. Also you should look at ira attacks on the BA leading up to B.sunday and try to understand why these soldiers would have been nervous. It was a sad day, but it was a day where errors were made and poor judgements were made. I fully understand the hurt of the families of those that were innocent, they need answers and if need be an apology.

The whole thing is a complete waste of money and the legal teams are nothing but daylight robberies. As I said I have no issue with you or anyone else questioning/protesting/demanding answers etc about this day, but I do have issue with the hypocrites within sinn fein. Earl you don't support the ira and it is people like yourself that I totally agree with in protesting at what happened so don't get me wrong as I am not saying any protesting or demands is not valid.

If the uvf were attacking the irish army, causing many civillian casualties and deaths before the LU parade in Dublin then your comparison would be valid. Apart from that it is an unfair comparison.

[Jim]

harry said:

I can't have all this about the IRA not being a legit army and as such they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Its a pathetic excuse to attack others while taking no responsibilty for your own actions. What a waste of money the whole bloody sunday episode has been. Millions and millions spent on it. Double whammy.

I wasnt excusing anything by the IRA, I just mentioned a fact, the IRA was not representing an entire country, an entire state or a democratically elected Government, the British army was and as such it is held to account very differently.

[Wasp]

Bloody sunday like most other things is something that we are all going to disagree on. But when republicans call for enquiries into ALL atrocities including the ones they commited then I will fully support all calls for enquiries.

[Jim]

No one is that fair Wasp, thats not going to happen, lets be realistic.

Calling an enquiry is one thing, its important that its done, but republicans arent going to call enquiries into their own doings and the British government has only been enquiring into the extents of its doings because its accountable to its sovereign parliament to do so or its one step closer to a vote of no confidence, which could happen to Brown; it happened to Thatcher pretty much.

[Blue Angel]

Right finally my deep and profound thoughts on this (yeah right..................................... ) Anyways, boy and girls, ladies and gentleman (and Setanta and WASP).

Firstly on consideration I DON'T feel SF is creating a neutral atmosphere here. They are aiming to do so perhaps but in fact by trying to create an artitifically neutral atmosphere they are achieving the exact opposite and just drawing more attention the sharp divisions in the north. Also, the whole thing smacks of the kind of shite socialist worker types gripe about - wow, a real blow for the nationalist community removing some teacups and other items from the town hall And of course the statue....

This is airbrushing the past - a practise both the ROI and NI have been guilty of - if Sinn Fein wishes to do this they should think long and hard about the consequences and possible outcomes. It only feeds the unionist belief and perception that SF is out to remove or strip all British culturual links from the north. I find it strange that I am now arguing with phraselogoy close to that of a unionist but I feel that this is petty nit-picking and that surely the more abler minds in SF must have been emberassed by the whole fiasco.

[Wasp]

From someone with your views BA I welcome your post, it maybe seems strange for you as you said to argue or state those points but you IMO have hit the nail on the head. I was in Limavady a few days ago delivering a wedding present and after all the wedding chat the statue farce etc came up in conversation. In all honest those that were talking about it have never ever mentioned anything political infront of me. The only time was when someone was killed during the troubles whether it was the ira or the uda that done it. Even then it was a case of saying it was terrible and why don't they stop and let people get on with their lives.

From someone who is temporarily opposed to stormont as things stand sinn fein are doing all the ground work and TUV or anyone else opposed to it just has to sit back and let sinn fein do the work for us.

[Blue Angel]

I feel as you said yourself given that many areas in the north suffer from high unemployment and associate problems that this issue is a waste of time and is an artificially created issue. You cannot creatue neutrality, you have to work at obtaining it by accepting that people will have different points of view than yourself, sometimes markedly so. Once that is accepted then you can work toward some level of mutual respect where even if you disagree heatedly with your opposite number you can at least respect their integrity.

Really it tends to be unionist parties who shoot themselves in the foot with regards to the media as SF is pretty slick in that dept. -but really this is just a fiasco. There was an online cartoon of the famous drawing of Che Guevara you see often with a speech bubble with the words 'no diana and charles mugs -long live the revolution' and i think that perfectly sums up the ludicrousness of it.

[Wasp]

Again good post BA. I will give you a few examples here, a while back I went over to a group of teens drinking with the police talking to them. It was nothing to do with me at all and the police were a bit taken back at my approaching the situation. Standing there was a girl with a kid in a buggy who along with her drunk boyfriend were giving loads of abuse to the police who were telling them to stop drinking in the street etc. A few of those driunking were underage and the saddest hing that brought me to near tears was the approx 2yr old boy crying in a dirty pram while his parents just ignored him. What hope has that kid go in life, where is his love and affection? I went to a nearby shop and bought him some sweets and gave them to him while the police officer tried to console him.

I wnet to visit a recovering drug addict who got her three kids back after they were in care, the house was like something out of a disturbing movie with the stink and the mess. IMO she didn't give a fuck about them, only the benefits to buy her drink and perhaps her drugs as I don't think she has really stopped them.

For me it is helping these children who cannot help themselves and are subject to beatings and neglect with no love being shown to them at all. If we try dealing with these kids then perhaps there is less chance that they themselves will follow the examples of how to live life that there parents have shown them.

I recently struck a deal with someone that I was to do work for and it will create training and temprary emplyment at least to about 20 or so people. All of whom are from backgrounds of drink/drugs and/or crime.