statue farce

[Republic]

setanta said:

Republic I've already said that those that see themselves as British will have their culture, traditions and citizinship guarenteed. No one has said they haven't anywhere in this thrend.

Yes they have. Your ideas of respect for their culture are nothing but tokenism.
Ask the unionists which proposal offers them more respect, yours or earls???

They have repeatedly said that your ideas do not respect them, when are you going to start listening them? Stop the charade that your ideas really offer them respect. They don't, no matter how many times you say otherwise!!

[Wasp]

WASP, what was Unionists total opposition to a United Ireland before the IRA Campaign then? They were willing to go to war to prevent Home Rule.

Setanta how many years ago was that??? I have already said that of course there are obvious reasons to why Unionists do not want to join a U.I, but it was the ira that done the most damge to any peaceful agreement/alternative, North South relationship and the ira done more damage to the nationalist/republican aspiration.

wilderness, Slab hasn't been convicted of anything PLUS they're trying to put him on trial in a juryless court on the word of GArda. That means nothing to me.

Setanta you have asked me before do I not take my securtiy forces and governments word to do with reports etc on the state of the ira's ceasefire etc, so why don't you take a leaf out of your own book. Are you seriously suggesting that local people, governments, former ira members, politicans, security forces etc are ALL wrong about slabber murphy? Funny it doesn't take the same convincing when it is anything British/loyalist.

Republic I've already said that those that see themselves as British will have their culture, traditions and citizinship guarenteed. No one has said they haven't anywhere in this thrend.

Absolute bollocks, what a pile of crap. You yourself stated that you would be opposed to any OO march in the republic unless they changed their ways in N.I and went along with your version of history. Why do Orangemen walk in Rossnowlagh in the republic which is in the ars end of nowhere?

Why was an Orange order march cancelled by Ian Cox in recent years? Here is aprt of what he had to say:
"We had banned all flags and political songs and even organised for Catholics to walk with us. I don’t see what more we could have done,’’

“But we had no cover. We were hung out to dry. No one was supporting us. The Gardaí were the only people to support us in any way. They were fantastic,”

“We had also asked Catholics, Jews, Moslems and anyone else who wished to attend our service. If that isn’t reconciliation, I don’t know what is.”

The announcement in March that the Orange Order planned to hold a parade in Dublin surprised many but met little opposition from most political parties in the Republic, apart fro sinn fein of course.

Sinn fein create and maintain tensions in N.Ireland concerning our culture, they travel to be offended and have been caught lying in various places such as Carnlough and Ballymena etc. so sinn fein are hypocrites and liars on this and they show that we will not have our culture and traditions in the republic unless of course it is away in the arse end of nowhere.

[Jim]

setanta said:

WASP, what was Unionists total opposition to a United Ireland before the IRA Campaign then? They were willing to go to war to prevent Home Rule.

Actually unionists back then were very much against partition

[Blue Angel]

I am very much intrigued by this thread but have lack time to comment. Tomorrow night I plan on writing a response. Suffice to say for now I tend to find myself siding with Earl and Republic to a larger degree than I would have thought I would once upon a time. I do not see Earls solution as perfect but I do see things of merit in it and attempts to actually face up to awkward realities and compromises which I think is a positive sign.

[Harry]

I totally agree with Republic in his assesment of Setantas ideas for a UI. This notion of a UI will not find peace but will merely reverse the roles. Is this acceptable to you Setanta?? Is this what your idea of a UI was all about??? I can tell you 100% from a Loyalist/Unionist viewpoint that your attempts at telling us how we will be respected etc is nothing but tokenism. Its empty, hollow and lacks any real attempt to find any lasting solution. Its basically your way or the high way. I never want a UI but if ideas such as Earls, basic and raw as it may be were being offered which actually allowed for me to feel totally comfortable about my nationality and where i can actually see genuine gestures which allow me to express my Britishness then i may well listen to them.

So the question is Setanta can you adapt your ideas of a UI or is it only us that have to change?? Cos if you can't then all your lambasting of Unionists is shambolic

[Harry]

setanta said:

OK, Harry, Republic, WASP, what is acceptable in a United Ireland where Unionists are 1 sixth of the population?

No where in the world ever has 1 sixth of the population had as much political sway as is being advocated here, in a democracy.
What is being propsed here is similar to the power the British Ascendency had before Independence.
I agree that Unionists views have to be accepted and respected BUT not what is being proposed here by Earl at all because it is giving a minority view far more political clout then has ever been given in a democracy anywhere.

You just don't grasp it at all do you. Stop talking about it as if its a UI already. Where talking about taking a majority from one totally separate country and merging it with another. Fuck being 1/6 of any population, ram your UI.

[earl]

I think that it's time for certain republican attitudes to change. It's okay for most modern minded republicans to accept an Ireland filled with immigrants, where in the next few years we'll have 1st generation 'new Irish' members of our family. These people will not only have their Irish identity, they will also have their parents homeland identity too. Yet, some republicans can find a British/Irish identity, usually from someone whose family have been here for centuries, harder to handle. We are entering a new period of our history where the definition of what being Irish is is being greatly expanded. We as republicans need to become comfortable with the idea that there is a British aspect to this island, and until we can come up with some middle ground on this, the island will never be truely united.

[earl]

You know as well as I do Setanta, that there are many who are not comfortable in the least. That post wasn't aimed at anyone here, because any of us republicans here have a similar attitude to most things.

[Harry]

setanta said:

harry said:

You just don't grasp it at all do you. Stop talking about it as if its a UI already..

Grasp what?I'm getting fed up with this.
All I'm doing is responding to posts. The case for a United Ireland was made by Earl, and I stayed out of it until I was asked to comment.
It's a hypocethical situation we're talking about here, not something set in concrete. I'm saying what I think, it's no secret at all.
What's pissing me off with this thrend is Earl & Republic supported by others are saying that Unionist/British concerns have to be respected, but not HOW.
Neither are the Unionist Members saying HOW.
The you're getting annoyed Harry? For what?

harry said:

Where talking about taking a majority from one totally separate country and merging it with another. Fuck being 1/6 of any population, ram your UI.

Its not seperate it's Ireland and even at state/economic level and it's getting closer in ties because everyone, (motivated by economics) is starting to recognise the border is a hinderence,

I'm not getting annoyed at all and i feel like i've known you long enough to say things and know that you will not take it personally. How isn't it separate?? You wish it wasn't but it is. How can you bleat on about democracies from around the world when you supported the actions of the IRA??

N.Ireland isn't just anywhere, we have a unique problem and merely looking at the makeup of the two countries then lumping us together and give us rights based on what percentage of the population we have is plain crazy. What have you learned from the last 30 years???

We don't want a UI, you are seeking to force me into a UI i have no desire to be part of. What is more important, Ireland at peace or Ireland United???

[earl]

I know if I can't have a peaceful United Ireland, a peaceful (and respectful) Ireland is a good 2nd choice. A UI at all costs is not even under consideration.

[Harry]

My case for Unionism would be no UI ever. Lots of cross border bodies, lots of cross border sharing, ranging from economical issues down to the daily security issues. Fully functional local government delivering for the people and elected by the people. Aims would be that the populace of NI can be equally as Irish as they are British but that NI remains as a soverign state. Surley Britain and Ireland can share our wee country and allow its people the freedom to be what they want to be. Forcing the issue either way will solve nothing. It would take a long time to come up with anything with real substance but those are just a few basic thoughts

[Wasp]

Setanta wrote 'The state the IRA fought against at the start of the conflict wasn't a mordern democratic state'.

So tell me what was the excuse for the ira fighting for a further three decades when many changes were made and people and politicians from all sides were pleading with the ira to stop. Sinn fein weren't to bothered about democracy then so it is highly hypocritical that they talk about it now as if they are just a normal political party like most other parties. But they are not and it is highly unlikely they ever will be.

The border is not a hinderance, most countries have borders with there neighbours. As said earlier many republicans benefited greatly from there criminality which was part and parcel of the ira.

[Jim]

The border is a hinderance, most countries have borers with their neighbours, on a contenant, with hundreds of millions in population. Our border is an imposed border seperating an island of 7 million and a nation. While you may not see youself as part of that nation, half of the statelet does and a fair amount of your own do too.

Would you put a border through England? Would that make sense to you?

[Wasp]

Jim you keep sayinga fair amount of Unionists are part of the Irish nation, I think you have misunderstood them when anyone of them has said that they see themselves as both Irish and British. That is completely different from being part of the Irish nation.

Jim you have a number of times said that you cannot answer certain questions because the example is far from a fair one, your example of England is far from comparison to Ireland. When partition happened it was almost 100 years ago and the world was a different place then. Both sides had to give and the result was one side gained 26 counties and one side lost 26 counties and ended up with 6. I like many people of similar views was born in the country called N.Ireland, it is the country I love and I do not want any borders taken down to rewrite its identity. Borders are far from a hinderance especially when we have the advantage of not having the euro, we can cross the border for slightly cheaper fuel etc. In the sameway a number of years ago people from the republic took full advantage of crossing the border to here for cheaper goods etc.

[Jim]

How is it different? If you see yourself as Irish, you are part of that nation, you don't have to agree with everything that others do, I don't either, but whats what a nation is, a large group of people with a similar identidy. The Irish nation has always existed in mdoern days, even within Britain, and it exists today and as many unionists as they want can and are part of that, it doesnt mean they have to change their political views or their national flag, nation-hood isnt state-hood, its not politics and its not one set of symbolism. You yourself have as much (or maybe more) in common with Irish people than you do with Scottish Welsh or English and I find it evident from your posts that your able to come here and talk with mainly people who are southerners closer than it would seem people who might come from England. Why is that such a bad thing? You may not see yourself as Irish in any way shape or form, but you have a lot of built-in hostility to anything remotely Irish in terms of culture, particularly language. You've probably let your guard down a bit since being part of these forums, maybe we could sit and blame the IRA for it all, but it doesnt stop the idea of the Irish nation. The English see you as Irish, the Scottish see you as Irish, the Welsh see you as Irish, you see yourself as British and living here for nearly 2 years, that version of Britishness only seems to exist in NI. It certainly doesn't exist here, your worrys of national identidy are foreign here, the union is on breaking point some days and on other days its as strong as its ever been.

Why isnt my comparison fair then? England can be as divded as Ireland on some home issues, for years the north of England was a shite-hole and all money was put into the south-east. You say about sides 100 years ago when the world was a different place, if thats true (and its not far from the truth) then the justification for the creaton of the North at least by reading Westminster commons debates has been ruined, because civil war happened anyway and years later conflict happened anyway, the purpose of partition from the point of view of MPs 90 years ago failed.

Borders are a hinderance and me and the other half of this state will always see it as imposed. I don't personally see the euro as a disadvantage, its certainly done the south no harm while the British government is having to help British banks from going into bankruptcy. Like you said WASP, the world was a different place when the border was put in place, the 1960s and the grim periods of the south don't exist anymore, so the border doesn't actually benefit anyone. You can't veto it forever.