statue farce

[Wasp]

And pleading with the Loyalists and British Government. WASP read up about the mid 70's IRA Ceasefire. When ever cease-fire or talks were mentioned in the IRA that was always given as an example as to why there shouldn't be a stop to the military campaign.
When they stopped the British went after them to try and eradicate them and the Loyalists stepped up their campaign. All sides needed to want to TALK and until the mid 90's that wasn't the case.
Sure even after the IRA called it's permanent ceasefire, I think it was Lord Molyneaux that said the ceasefire was the biggest threat to the Union since Home Rule.
People were too entrenched to consider what we have now.

So what about the 80's and 90's? You may fool some with your defence of the undefencable but you don't fool us all. Obviously the only understanding of N.Ireland that you have concerning the troubles is the propaganda shite you like many others were spoonfed. But if you want to support and excuse such acts don't greet about Unionists refusing to negociate or talk to sinn fein on various issues, or more importantly the Unionist people.

That's your opinion and I disagree with you and so does the majority of the electorate because we're in Government

Sadly the majority of those same people support the ira and there cowardly actions so again don't expect too much from the Unionst community who suffered at their actions. Pity voters in N.I didn't follow suit with voters in the republic who have little time for sinn feins spin and lies as well as downright sectarian bigotry.

Yeah what-ever.

You know why there'll be a United Ireland WASP?

Don't count your chickens before there hatched.

Because of your strand of Unionism that blames every single thing on Republicans and that has resisted every innicative that included Republicans until the British Government left you with no choice.
You can protest that you also blame Loyalists or Government but it's clear from your posts that you lay the blame squarly and soley at the door of Republicans.

I have nothing to protest about, I am stating that most of the blame for the duration of the troubles lies with republicans. All sides made mistakes and errors, bloody Sunday was an error, the arrest of an innocent person was an error etc etc and loyalists didn't help either with there sectarian campaign. But as far as the violence goes the ira and sinn fein must carry most of the burden.

Most of your posts show that you fully supported the sectarian campaign that the ira carried out (although even in the face of years of factula evidence you still deny that it happened), which is a slap in the face to every single Protestant/Unionist in N.Ireland, yet you complain about Unionists not talking. You may try and butter Harry up by trying to convince them that they are a bigger obstacle to a U.I etc, when in reality sinn fein want soft touch Unionist leaders who will give more and more while sinn fein give fuck all which would lead IMO to a U.I much quicker than my brand of Unionism.

Your brand of republicanism done more to stall peace, stall shared government etc than Paisley and everyone else put together.

I know that we could work together fighting the biggest threat to society today, that is illegal drugs and the crime that goes with it. I know we could work together and agree on healthcare, transport, renewable energy etc.

Yes we certainly could and we would probably agree on most things.

But anything that includes Irishness, be it in education, sport or government and a wall comes down with you.

I think you are not looking at the bigger picture, your blaming me is simply trying to make you look like the fair one and me the unfair selfish one. So what is the anything Irish that I am opposed to, would it be things like Irish festivals, Irish dancing etc etc? On sport you will never ever grasp where Unionists are coming from, you want us to support/join/accomodate a sport which in N.I has been hijacked by republicans and is far from inclusive no matter what you claim. Again republicans are to blame for lack of interest from Unionists and no-one else. Not sure what you are on about concerning education though. On government I am far from wrong when it concerns the butchers of men women and children being in government or those that fully supported them WITHOUT alot of work being done FIRST BEFORE entering government with terrorists.

It's that wall that you have created that will lead to a United Ireland and it's that wall that makes me work for a United Ireland

Republicans like yourself created my wall and thousands of walls like them. Listening and debating with republicans on forums hardened my views, hardened my resolve and made me think alot different than before I came to these forums. If you or anyone thinks I am going to airbrush recent history, brush what sinn fein and the ira have done under the carpet, not counter gaa claims of inclusiveness and not point out the blatant hypocricy by republicans then you are very much mistaken. I am like this because of sinn fein and there double standards and lies. But then again sinn fein in N.I are well used to creating and maintaining divisions in N.Ireland so I am surprized you have a problem with the wall that republicans built.

[He_Who_Walks_in_The_Wilderness]

Your looking at it the wrong way WASP i welcome people like sentata who justify republican violence, i want to see and more of them in the newspapers on the TV, on the radio etc, I welcome this move in limavady i hope they move thier campaign to every city in northern ireland because i know that the more the have these campaigns the more they jusitfy republican violence the more they alienate the unionist population, the more they make the very idea of a united ireland unpalatable to unionists and the more the dream of a united ireland slips out of sinn feins grasp, you talk figures all you want end of the day without unionist say so there will be no united ireland end of story 50% +1 is fancyful nonscence even the RoI government sees that, that formula is a reciepy for civil unrest on a huge scale, and spare me the condemnations sentata, it was ok for republicans in engage in civil unrest for 30years so whats good for the goose is good for the gander, If peace is what you really want sentata then maybe you should be paying very close attention to exactly what republic and earl are saying, can't say thier ideas actually appeal to me in anyway but atleast they are trying which in my book counts alot.

[Wasp]

Very true h_w_i_t_w, I know loads and loads of people who were not political and would be classed very moderate but sinn fein have even got to them and they now are talking about what sinn fein are doing, where as before they never talked about politics or changed the subject if politics were mentioned. Take many of those from high kirk church that I have spoke to, many of them were in no way political and hardly voted and most of those whom I talked to protested against loyalists protesting at Harryville chapel. These very same people are waking up to sinn feins alienation and downright sectarian bogoted double standards.

So I guess you are right in welcoming sinn feins stance as this is hardening the attitude of the most moderate Unionists and evedn those who never bother with politics. Well done to sinn fein and there ilk in N.I. Setanta ever think of going on tv or the radio up here and discussing current events, you will bolster Unionist opinion which would be very much appreciated. lol

[Harry]

WASP i feel you have had a pop at me referring to me as a soft touch or someone who gives and gives. Let me assure you that if the day came where we ever entered a civil war i'd be the first at the top of the queue and Setanta or anyone else who appeased, supported, funded Republicanism would be all fair game, and i'd expect the same from them in regards to myself.

Whats soft about trying to look at the bigger picture, whats soft about trying to find support in areas that we have alienated??? Whats soft about the realization that there is a hell of alot of people in N.Ireland who don't share my Britishness?? I've had enough of people simply stamping their feet and demanding they get their own way. This very kind of leadership has left Unionism and Loyalism in the state that it is. We need to adapt to the surroundings and learn to play the game, we need to scratch the right backs and hence ensure that altough things may have to be said or done that don't exactly fit with our history but in the long run it will benefit or long term plans.

Having the support of the BNP or right wing fanatics is hardly something to shout about, but when we look across Britain, apart from the Loyal support from our Brothers in Scotland we find grass root support for our cause hard to find. Why, because we alienate them with our backwards approach to everything and our constant clinging to the past and all that went with it. We continually portray ourselves as the bad guy, the obstacle to peace, the old dragons determined to keep things as it is no matter the consequences.

We need to a new dynamic approach to Britishness and our whole way of thinking. We can't let the IRA be a chain around our necks forever or else they will have one. Even now after years of relative peace we are still obsessed with the IRA. I'll never forget what the IRA done and those that the IRA robbed of innocent life but i sure as hell won't let the IRA cripple Unionism through SF. We have no choice but to talk with SF, we have no choice but to sit in government with SF, we have no choice but to accept that SF have a role to play in the future of NI, anyone who doesn't see this is blind and are a hindrance to Unionism.

SF have to be tackled head on with a fresh, pragmatic approach. Lets show everything that is good about Unionism, let the guard down a little and show willingness to appreciate other views and accept the wrongs of the past if it can help shape a better future. Unite Loyalism and we are undefeatable.

[Wasp]

I already explained why the conflict went on so long. All sides played their part in keeping the conflict going and I have repeatly said that there is no hierarchy of victims. Everyone suffered. No one persons suffering trumphs anothers. Everything you asked me in your last post was already covered in earlier replies.
I'm not going over it again.

Good way out of it. Why don't you buy the book lost lives and compare the deaths and what groups etc suffered, you will find there is a hierrarchy of victims between those who carried out terrorist attacks and those who just went about there everyday lives such as shopping and going to work etc.

You both keep commending Earl and Republic for their ideas on this thrend and then both of you say their ideas don't appeal to you at all. So what does?

Don't twist things as usual Setanta and you are leaving Harry out as he agreed with us. Try re-reading what we actually said.

I'm disappointed but not shocked or surprised that you described Bloody Sunday and Interment as "errors", but that's what makes it sadder.
Calling Harry "buttered up" and a "soft touch" really amuse me and hopefully for me and my spectrum of Republicanism, your branch of Unionism will continue to try to marginalise Unionists like Harry because that just makes my job of achieving the 32 County Republic easier.

No I did not call Harry a soft touch, you are using him IMO to your own ends to try to divide Unionists here, but I will explain to Harry in my next post. Bloody sunday was an error, if it wasn't then we would have had many similar incidents just like the constant 'apparent errors' that the ira kept planning and carrying out over and over again.

WASP I MAY be on TV come the 29th of February or March 1st but that'll be talking about an issue you WASP, asked me to address.

Seriously on tv, well good for you on that as I know you work hard at what you do, but what issue will you be talking about?

So lads do you have anything to say on Earls hypothetical scenario where Nationalists are the majority? What would you do?

I thought we did say.

[Wasp]

WASP i feel you have had a pop at me referring to me as a soft touch or someone who gives and gives. Let me assure you that if the day came where we ever entered a civil war i'd be the first at the top of the queue and Setanta or anyone else who appeased, supported, funded Republicanism would be all fair game, and i'd expect the same from them in regards to myself.

Definately wasn't having a pop at you mate and I know you are not a soft touch, you did say in a recent posts that you would rather us be fighting again or something like that.

If I worded my post to make it sound like that I apologize as it WAS NOT meant to seem like that, Setanta also took it that way so it is bad English in my part. I do not want to accuse setanta of this outright but what I am saying is this is the way he is coming across. Republicans as we know try every way they can to divide, manipulate and cause friction within Unionism. Very much a case of 'here wer'e not the bad ones here, it is ones from your lot that is holding things up, come and join us and we will find peace together' etc etc. We both know that this could not be further from the truth, we only have to look at sinn fein in N.Ireland to see there real game. But they DO have valid points so I am not dismissing them completely.

You have made some comments which are positive and I genuinely believe you are trying to make a difference, bit like Earl on the otherside. But I feel setanta is using this to try and demean others here who challenge republicans at what they say on everything, yet ignore any of their positive comments. IMO people like yourself because of your willingness to make a difference which I totally agree with, setanta MAY see you as the sofet option which I know is not the case because others like me also challenge there motives and words. We both do the same but perhaps I word or go about it differently and believe me I do not believe for a second that you are 'soft'. Again my apologies at my poor use of words and I probably have explained what I mean here wrong as well.

[Wasp]

On an added note Harry we do at times portray ourselves as the bad guys but it is sinn fein who do that to us most of the time as they are light years ahead of our politicans as far as propoganda goes.

[Jim]

But I feel setanta is using this to try and demean others here who challenge republicans at what they say on everything, yet ignore any of their positive comments

Thats just Politics mate, same everywhere you go, ours is just a bit more heated.

[Wasp]

I've read plenty of books, experienced plenty of things and spoke to plenty of people WASP, but I'll read the book you mentioned.
But give me a quick synopsis of why it says that "terrorists" were the hierarchy of victims.

It lists every death and cause of death, you will see who the real victims are.

But Harry offered alternatives instead of just the "never never never not going to happen no no no no" approach you and Wilderness offered

Sorry but we did not say no no no.

I think you did WASP.
I have nothing to gain by dividing Unionists here. I could say you're trying to divide Nationalists here by commending Earl and lambasting me but I know that isn't what you're trying to do. You simply agree more with what Earl has said then what I have and that same logic applies for me with you and Harry.

I already explained myself concerning Harry. Apart from that fair enough with what you said but that is how you come across.

There was more then Bloody Sunday WASP, but I won't start reading out the death toll like it's a score card and then you post your score card because it serves no purpose.

It has nothing to do with scoresheets etc, absolutely nothing. If it was then you know you would lose hands down everytime. Bloody Sunday was nothing more than an error.

I accept maybe perhaps my posts have been strongly worded towards you, but when you seem to come across as reasonable it is totally frustrating that you cannot accept what Unionists say if it disagrees with sinn fein in anyway. Are you on here as a sinn fein rep or a person? IF you are on here as a person then why is everything that has been researched anywhere completley wrong, but anything researched by sinn fein is gospel. You would really need to take a closer look at sf in N.Ireland.

[earl]

It has nothing to do with scoresheets etc, absolutely nothing. If it was then you know you would lose hands down everytime. Bloody Sunday was nothing more than an error.

I'm sorry WASP, but Bloody Sunday was more than a simple 'error'. Government forces fired on members of their own population that they were meant to be protecting. Where else in the western world has state forces murdered members of it's own population in cold blood?? Where else in the western world would the government of such a country get away scot free? Imagine if the U.S. army had of murdered African Americans out protesting for their civil rights in such a manner what would have happened. Or better yet, imagine if the Irish government had of opened fire on the Love Ulster parade a while back. How would you have felt if we'd describe such an incident as an 'error'? That's how we feel about this. If you can consider this an error, then it is very easy to label such travesties as la mon as errors too. Innocent people being blown to bits or shot down are not errors, no matter who it is shooting or being shot.

[Harry]

WASP no offence taken mate but i just wanted to point out a few things in case you thought that way of me. We're both on the same side of the fence but i'd just choose to do things differently

[bearhunter]

earl said:

It has nothing to do with scoresheets etc, absolutely nothing. If it was then you know you would lose hands down everytime. Bloody Sunday was nothing more than an error.

I'm sorry WASP, but Bloody Sunday was more than a simple 'error'. Government forces fired on members of their own population that they were meant to be protecting. Where else in the western world has state forces murdered members of it's own population in cold blood?? Where else in the western world would the government of such a country get away scot free? Imagine if the U.S. army had of murdered African Americans out protesting for their civil rights in such a manner what would have happened. Or better yet, imagine if the Irish government had of opened fire on the Love Ulster parade a while back. How would you have felt if we'd describe such an incident as an 'error'? That's how we feel about this. If you can consider this an error, then it is very easy to label such travesties as la mon as errors too. Innocent people being blown to bits or shot down are not errors, no matter who it is shooting or being shot.

Emm, Earl, I think you'll find that the US government DID kill its own, most explicitly at Kent State. ANd then theree was Waco...

[Blue Angel]

i was going to mention kent state meself but you beat me to it - and it's by no means the only time the US military has been involved in such situations.....

That said casting either Bloody Sunday as an 'error' is worrying - both strike me as more in the nature of the natives are revolting let's show em who's boss.

[Wasp]

harry said:

WASP no offence taken mate but i just wanted to point out a few things in case you thought that way of me. We're both on the same side of the fence but i'd just choose to do things differently

No problem mate, glad you understand what I meant. You do speak very well for our side and I am glad you are on our side. So you continue to do the talking and I will continue to do the mouthing.

[Wasp]

I'm sorry WASP, but Bloody Sunday was more than a simple 'error'. Government forces fired on members of their own population that they were meant to be protecting. Where else in the western world has state forces murdered members of it's own population in cold blood?? Where else in the western world would the government of such a country get away scot free? Imagine if the U.S. army had of murdered African Americans out protesting for their civil rights in such a manner what would have happened. Or better yet, imagine if the Irish government had of opened fire on the Love Ulster parade a while back. How would you have felt if we'd describe such an incident as an 'error'? That's how we feel about this. If you can consider this an error, then it is very easy to label such travesties as la mon as errors too. Innocent people being blown to bits or shot down are not errors, no matter who it is shooting or being shot.

Earl this is just something that we differ on completely. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with anyone not connected to the ira or sinn fein demanding answers etc, but it is quite sickening to hear sinn fein and their supporters greet and gurn about bloody sunday. Are they going to call for enquiries to do with ALL their atrocities which make b.sunday small in comparison? Is McGuinness going to own up to all his part in his violent campaign with the ira? There supporters see the ira as a legitimate army, so as a legitimate army are they going to be held account for there actions?

Apart from that there are the events before b.sunday which would have made any young soldier nervous, there is the fact that McGuinness has been named as firing the first shot, there is the fact of rioters endangering life and property, there is the fact that the lives of these soldiers were at risk. It is not as simple as soldiers opening fire on innocent protestors who were simply carrying out a protest.

If it was not an error then there would have been many bloody sundays over and over again. Remember what the ira done to the 2 soldiers in Belfast? Remember how they fired in the air rather than at the crowd and look what happened to them by the cowardly vermin who executed them. Those poor soldiers knew that if they had of fired at the hostile crowd that they may have ended up in court with the usual rant of shoot to kill bollocks. They chose not to do so and paid for it with their lives.