SEAN RUSSEL

[Wasp]

Earl there is a big difference between a nazi collaborator and combat 18. There is a big difference between Church and state giving a safe haven to nazi collaborators and war criminals. That BTW is me not blaming Irish people. Perhaps you will have to learn to what my posts are actually stating and they are not an attack on ordinary Irish people in any way.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl there is a big difference between a nazi collaborator and combat 18. There is a big difference between Church and state giving a safe haven to nazi collaborators and war criminals. That BTW is me not blaming Irish people. Perhaps you will have to learn to what my posts are actually stating and they are not an attack on ordinary Irish people in any way.

Before you say anything more on the subject of providing safe havens for Nazi collaborators, I advise you to do something new here that you haven't done before. LOOK INTO WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Why don't you google the British and Americans rocket programmes, circa 1945-1960's to educate yourself on what giving safe haven to Nazi collaborators actually entails.

Alternatively, you can read the book 'Justice Delayed: How Britain Became a Refuge for Nazi War Criminals' by David Cesarani. It highlights how the British governments immigration policy favoured ex Waffen SS and Nazi police immigrants from Eastern Europe over Jewish holocaust survivors. Here is where you can buy a copy:
www.amazon.co.uk/Justice-Delayed-Britain-Became-Criminals/dp/184212126X

[earl]

wasp said:

Perhaps you will have to learn to what my posts are actually stating and they are not an attack on ordinary Irish people in any way.

So lets look at the offending sentences from your previous posts.

To do with the man's comments, is he responsible for the actions of the Israeli government? Basicall what you are saying is if an Irishman complained about a statue or whatever in another country, people would have every right to point out the irony of an Irish human rights group considering what republican terrorists have done. They could also say by your logic that this Irish group doesn't watch it's own backyard. That would also be unfair, and would be branding the Irish human rights group as hypocrites. Can you see my point.

Here you compare the actions of a democratically elected government with the actions of a terrorist organisation who answer to no-one.
For your analogy to be anyway correct here, you would have to be viewing the IRA as some form of official body for the Irish people.

[Wasp]

Earl I don't mind in the sl;ightest if you bring the British or whoever into this thread or even start one on them. Anything that any country done in protecting nazis then I have no problem condemning it, none at all.

Would it be true that the Free State gave a bigger welcome to nazis and their collaborators than the many brave war veterans?

Perhaps you could check Andrija Artukovic, Nazi Minister of the Interior in Croatia and the man responsible for the deaths of over 1,000,000 men, women and children in concentration camps. For some reason the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs to the best of my knoweldge still refuses to release the file on this man.

Or Celestine Laine, leader of the Bezen Perrot, a Waffen SS unit responsible for the torture and murder of civilians in occupied Brittany, and Pieter Menten, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jews in Poland.

Why was the Irish state prepared to harbour men such as Artukovic and Laine, while Jewish refugees were refused asylum?

Or Hitler's favourite soldier - Otto "Scarface" Skorzeny. He was feted by the Dublin social glitterati, even hobnobbing with a future Taoiseach.

[Wasp]

Please not the thread was about republicans as in sinn fein honouring a nazi collaborator and has expanded out to do with the government in the R.O.I. Once again I am not talking about the Orinary Irish people.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl I don't mind in the sl;ightest if you bring the British or whoever into this thread or even start one on them. Anything that any country done in protecting nazis then I have no problem condemning it, none at all.

Would it be true that the Free State gave a bigger welcome to nazis and their collaborators than the many brave war veterans?

Perhaps you could check Andrija Artukovic, Nazi Minister of the Interior in Croatia and the man responsible for the deaths of over 1,000,000 men, women and children in concentration camps. For some reason the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs to the best of my knoweldge still refuses to release the file on this man.

Or Celestine Laine, leader of the Bezen Perrot, a Waffen SS unit responsible for the torture and murder of civilians in occupied Brittany, and Pieter Menten, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jews in Poland.

Why was the Irish state prepared to harbour men such as Artukovic and Laine, while Jewish refugees were refused asylum?

Or Hitler's favourite soldier - Otto "Scarface" Skorzeny. He was feted by the Dublin social glitterati, even hobnobbing with a future Taoiseach.

Probably for the exact same reasons that the British government did the exact same things. Good enough answer for you?

[Wasp]

earl said:

wasp said:

Perhaps you will have to learn to what my posts are actually stating and they are not an attack on ordinary Irish people in any way.

So lets look at the offending sentences from your previous posts.

To do with the man's comments, is he responsible for the actions of the Israeli government? Basicall what you are saying is if an Irishman complained about a statue or whatever in another country, people would have every right to point out the irony of an Irish human rights group considering what republican terrorists have done. They could also say by your logic that this Irish group doesn't watch it's own backyard. That would also be unfair, and would be branding the Irish human rights group as hypocrites. Can you see my point.

Here you compare the actions of a democratically elected government with the actions of a terrorist organisation who answer to no-one.
For your analogy to be anyway correct here, you would have to be viewing the IRA as some form of official body for the Irish people.

Earl you brought in the Israeli gov because a Jewish man from an Israeli human rights centre commented on Russell. You have once again twisted what I said, I said you were making the point that it was ironic he made these comments because of what the Israeli gov have done. This was your reply not mine,. Please stop twisting my posts.

[Wasp]

earl said:

wasp said:

Earl I don't mind in the sl;ightest if you bring the British or whoever into this thread or even start one on them. Anything that any country done in protecting nazis then I have no problem condemning it, none at all.

Would it be true that the Free State gave a bigger welcome to nazis and their collaborators than the many brave war veterans?

Perhaps you could check Andrija Artukovic, Nazi Minister of the Interior in Croatia and the man responsible for the deaths of over 1,000,000 men, women and children in concentration camps. For some reason the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs to the best of my knoweldge still refuses to release the file on this man.

Or Celestine Laine, leader of the Bezen Perrot, a Waffen SS unit responsible for the torture and murder of civilians in occupied Brittany, and Pieter Menten, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jews in Poland.

Why was the Irish state prepared to harbour men such as Artukovic and Laine, while Jewish refugees were refused asylum?

Or Hitler's favourite soldier - Otto "Scarface" Skorzeny. He was feted by the Dublin social glitterati, even hobnobbing with a future Taoiseach.

Probably for the exact same reasons that the British government did the exact same things. Good enough answer for you?

I am surprized at such a short answer. You answered it by giving a probable opinion on the same reasons as the British.

Maybe these facts being pointed out upsets your opinion on the R.O.I's gov through certain times.

[earl]

wasp said:

earl said:

So lets look at the offending sentences from your previous posts.


Here you compare the actions of a democratically elected government with the actions of a terrorist organisation who answer to no-one.
For your analogy to be anyway correct here, you would have to be viewing the IRA as some form of official body for the Irish people.

Earl you brought in the Israeli gov because a Jewish man from an Israeli human rights centre commented on Russell. You have once again twisted what I said, I said you were making the point that it was ironic he made these comments because of what the Israeli gov have done. This was your reply not mine,. Please stop twisting my posts.

You made the analogy, not me. I can tell the difference between a legitimate organisation and a terrorist one.

[earl]

wasp said:

earl said:

Probably for the exact same reasons that the British government did the exact same things. Good enough answer for you?

I am surprised at such a short answer. You answered it by giving a probable opinion on the same reasons as the British.

Maybe these facts being pointed out upsets your opinion on the R.O.I's gov through certain times.

What you're telling me is old hat WASP. Unlike yourself, I actually am interested and very aware of the history of my own country. We have programmes which highlight certain aspects of our history. There was a range of programmes on RTÉ a few months back on this very subject and I watched them all.
You keep getting yourself all excited like you are telling me something new, but you have yet to surprise me with any of your second hand information. The fact that I'm arguing with you on this is nothing to do with not liking the facts you are displaying, it's to do with the method and way you present them and the way you interchange between different facts on different people and organisations without rhyme or reason other than the word 'Irish' connects them.

[Wasp]

earl said:

wasp said:

I am surprised at such a short answer. You answered it by giving a probable opinion on the same reasons as the British.

Maybe these facts being pointed out upsets your opinion on the R.O.I's gov through certain times.

What you're telling me is old hat WASP. Unlike yourself, I actually am interested and very aware of the history of my own country. We have programmes which highlight certain aspects of our history. There was a range of programmes on RTÉ a few months back on this very subject and I watched them all.
You keep getting yourself all excited like you are telling me something new, but you have yet to surprise me with any of your second hand information. The fact that I'm arguing with you on this is nothing to do with not liking the facts you are displaying, it's to do with the method and way you present them and the way you interchange between different facts on different people and organisations without rhyme or reason other than the word 'Irish' connects them.

If it is second hand info from me, then surely historical facts are second hand info many times over.

What do you mean I get all excited? Can you really travel through cyber space to see the emotions that people are actually feeling? Mate if you can you are an absolute genius.

Could you tell me exactly what way you think I should have presented facts or asked questions or replied to posts?

I am not accusing you of this but it seems to me you can hand out critisizim to do with other countries and governments but you cannot receive critisizim, maybe it is because it comes from a loyalist and with all the things being portrayed about how fair and inclusive Ireland is, while N.Ireland's unionists/loyalists are the opposite and take part in what some see as sectarian culture. I could be wrong in what I get from your reaction to posts, but I really do not see what was wrong with me posting facts, when so many facts are posted by republicans on the British.

[Wasp]

Anyway our personal opinions are going off topic too much, maybe we should try and stick to the thread or at least keep inline with many of the related posts.

In 1944, as the allies liberated Brittany, many Nazi collaborators fled France. Some of those captured were found in possession of letters of recommendation written in English and addressed to the Irish consulate in Paris.

In 1947 word reached Lainé that the Irish government was prepared to grant him asylum.
Dan Leach of the University of Melbourne reveals that the former head of the Breton Nationalist Party met de Valera to discuss Lainé.

“De Valera advised him (that Lainé should) continue using his alias so that if the French asked him if Lainé was in the country he could truthfully answer ‘no’,” Leach said. Lainé kept a low profile in Ireland until his death in 1983.

As I already said another Nazi to take advantage of the soft approach of the Irish government was Andrija Artukovic, who was responsible for the death of 1m people in Croatia. He had a particular penchant for poisoning children and enjoyed having his picture taken with dead bodies. He arrived in Ireland in 1947 after being referred by a Franciscan church in Switzerland and lived under the assumed name Alois Annick in Rathgar, south Dublin.

Cathal O’Shannon said. “In Rathgar he was saved from allied vengeance and prosecution.”

Brian Girvan, a historian, says de Valera was well aware of the extermination of Jews by Nazis during the war but still identified with Hitler’s army. During the 1970s it emerged that Pieter Menten, a Dutchman responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Jews in Poland, was dividing his time between Holland and Waterford, where he had a large country home at Mahon Bridge.

Locals were stunned in 1976 when Menten was arrested, tried and, in 1980, sentenced to 10 years in prison for war crimes. When he was released he believed he would live out his days in Ireland but Garret Fitz-Gerald, the then taoiseach, barred him from the country.

[Jim]

Right so basically Ireland might have/had given nazi collaborators political asylum. What exactly is the problem? Ireland was a nuetral european country in the war and neutral countries usually give asylum to whoever needs it in a time of war. For example, France giving political asylum to members of ETA (Basque paramilitaries with lots of connections to the IRA through the years) 70s and 80s.

I'd like to see the proof that Devalera was aware of the extermination of the Jews. You use that paragraph as if he knew Auschwitz and other camps existed and he knew what went on, while in reality, not even the allies knew of the severity of what was going on and the SS attempted to destroy the camps before being invaded by soviet troops, to cover up what they where doing. Considering this, and that Ireland had actually helped Britain more then they helped anyone else, and considering Ireland did not have the Irish army fly over Germany to take pictures of strategic german points the way the allies did (thus they would know more then dev).. I doubt very very heavily that De Valera knew the severity of the concentration camps.

We already know Dev was an arse, why go on about him?

[Wasp]

Jim you ask what exactly is the problem. Are you being serious? Do you know what the nazis done? Yet you don't see the problem. What France done was completely wrong, but I don't think eta is in the same league as the nazis, so your comparisons here are ridiculous.

Jim wrote 'Ireland was a nuetral european country in the war and neutral countries usually give asylum to whoever needs it in a time of war'

There is a BIG BIG difference between people needing asylum and those who took part in the most horrendous of crimes. Another point would be to do with offering asylum, why did Cathal O'Shannon say 'why was the Irish state prepared to harbour men such as Artukovic and Laine, while Jewish refugees were refused asylum'?

[Jim]

Its hard to not know what the nazis done. I dont agree with giving them political asylum, I'd rather they be lined up and executed but it my point was that Ireland was nuetral throughout the war, it wasnt technically on either side contrary to popular unionist belief and if anything this topic is pointless because they done more to help the allies on account of having so many irishmen fight in the war.

France, Britain, America and the Soviet Union arent without their horrendous crimes but you'd probably be fine with giving them political asylum if it was the other way around, because its not in the history books, thats my point. I dont agree with giving nazis asylum and as far as I know, no real key players did anyway. Look at history wasp, you'll see where Irelands bias during the war was, and it wasnt with Germany.

Some Jewish refugees were refused asylum, many where not, same case in Britain and throughout Europe thus one of the reason for Israel being a realistic solution anyway.

My point about ETA was to demonstrate asylum, it was just one of many examples I could have chose. No example could compare to the nazis obviously/