SEAN RUSSEL

[Wasp]

Cromwell was a great leader and I didn't know he was a pimp who sold children. Ah the things we find out on forums etc, no-one should ever be surprized at anything. Take stakeknife he I believe was a walk in informer, who would ever have thought that.

Earl you should start a thread on the UVF as I would be interested in reading it. If I have hit a sore point or raw nerve with you or anyone else because I posted about Dublin being the only country in Europe to have a statue dedicated to a nazi collaborator then what can I do. Perhaps people in the republic which is alledgedly a country that is moving forward, breaking its link with the Catholic church, welcome communities from all walks of life etc, thne they should demand that no such statues or commemorations are made of such vermin. One only has to look at what the nazis done to see why the Jewish community among others are so upset. How can any country claim to be modern and inclusive when they have statues of nazi collaborators.

Now on King Edward's statue I will email Westminster to see if they will bring it down, because I didn't realize Russel and Edward were two of a kind and both nazi collaborators. Vermin the both of them. Isn't it funny though that at Easer time most Christian countries celebrate Christ's ressurection, but rather than celebrate the proof of eternal life, some in Ireland would rather commemorate death by what many see as death by terrorism.

From what I have read most of those killed were innocent civillians so it's not much to celebrate. If England does the same then let me know and I will email Westminster about that too. Isn't it about time we all put a stop to all this nonsence where we allow our countries and some of its people to honour nazi collaborators and honour men whom many branded as terrorists. I am all for it, what about the rest of you???

[Jim]

But you keep saying that the statue is there as if it is because he was a nazi "collaborator". It doesn't matter whether he wanted guns from Germany or if he went to Russia or China or any other country in the world, the statue would still be there.

I mean for fuck sake, neo nazis have attacked the statue. I don't agree with him collaborating with nazis, he can fuck off for that, but lets remember that at the time it was largely unknown what was really happening to the Jews, even in Germany itself. The persecution was widely known but it wasnt unique in the world either, most world powers of the day had a history of persecuting groups of people. He is there as a statue because he was a republican, not because he spoke to nazis for guns.

[Wasp]

I suppose another way to look at it was that when Britain along with other nations were doing all they can to stop the nazis, sending thousands of men to help defeat them which included many brave Irishmen who fought alongside the British, here was a man collaborating with them. If the nazis had succeeded then there is everychance that Ireland could have been ruled by them along with other nations.

I think it's a shame, rather than remember the brave war effort of Irishmen fighting to help protect the world from facists, fighting to liberate other nations are insulted by commemorations to a nazi sympathiser. For me IMO I think it is disgusting that such a man should be remembered over thousands who bravely gave their lives.

For example I admire seaman James meginnis who won the vc in the 2d world war. Who was sadly largely ignored by the then unionist government because he was a catholic which also disgusts me. IMO those who ignored him couldn't tie the man's shoe laces.

[Jim]

Why though? You talk about nazi invasions as if there would never be rebellions against them, as if once england is invaded you just lie down and take it. The IRA "declared" war against the British government because it still occupied part of this island, so they done whatever they could to help their own cause.

by commemorations to a nazi sympathiser

How many times do I need to say it? He was anything BUT a fucking nazi sympathiser. He worked with them for guns and thats the end of their relationship, he didnt sympathise with them, he didnt believe in them, and he didnt follow their ideology but you are ignoring it time and time again.

[Wasp]

Jim you are entitled to think what you want but many people think different. Part of my post stated 'Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at the centre, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, told The Times: “It’s a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light.” '

Republicans are accused of modern anti-Semitism. Being anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian Arab terror attacks on Israel. Did republicans train at Arab terrorist training camps??

Did republicans support the terror campaign of Arafat´s PLO to wipe out the Jewish state?

Arafat's uncle, the notorious nazi war criminal, Haj Amin el Husseini who was also known as the Mufti of Jerusalem set up SS divisions among the Moslems of Bosnia which slaughtered many Jews. So with republican support for the PLO, statues to nazi collaborators, the murder of a prominent member of the Jewish community, Leonard Kaitcer, who in February 1980 was abducted from his home in south Belfast and later found shot in west Belfast etc is it any wonder why republicans are accused of being anti-Jewish.

Then there was Charles E. Couglin an Irish (born in Canada) catholic priest , who was a dedicated Nazi who hated the Jews,

On 2 May 1945, Eamon de Valera called on Eduard Hempel, German Minister to Ireland, to express his condolences on the death of Adolf Hitler. The visit created a storm of hostile coverage in the American and British press. While De Valera's protested that his action was consistent with protocol requirements he found himself in the unsavoury company of Franco and Salazar who also expressed condolences. Doesn't sound to good now does it???

Sean Russell offered his services and those of the IRA to Germany is a matter of fact. Even in 1940 the ugly face of Nazi ideology would have been clear to even the most naïve. Events such as Kristallnacht or the invasions of Poland, Norway, the low countries and France hardly went unreported in Ireland. The PRO-German tone of IRA publications during WWII is also a matter of record.

Russell collaborated with one of the most disgustingregimes of the 20th century and to have a statue of him to commemorate is disgusting. What if Germany had a statue of Hitler to commemorate their war dead??

In July 1940 for example, the IRA made a statement which made it clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they would land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom
Also in 1940 Sinn Féin leader J.J. O’Kelly was praising Hitler for freeing Germany from the ‘heel’ of the ‘Jewish white slave traffic’.

Absolutely disguting to say the least and to think Adam's went to visit a German concentration camp. Perhaps he should have apologised for honouring a man who collaborated with this brutal regime that killed millions.

[lochy]

wasp said:

Jim you are entitled to think what you want but many people think different. Part of my post stated 'Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at the centre, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, told The Times: “It’s a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light.” '

He is entitled to his opinion, but I can name many many countries who have a blot on their record with regard to Jews including the UK, but that is an irrelevence. The fact that you keep conveniently ignoring becasue it blows a massive hole in your argument is that a there has been a Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin. Hardly a blot on the history of Ireland.

Republicans are accused of modern anti-Semitism. Being anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian Arab terror attacks on Israel. Did republicans train at Arab terrorist training camps??

Did republicans support the terror campaign of Arafat´s PLO to wipe out the Jewish state?

Have to ask the obvious question. Why are you assuming that Israel is in the right? I am anti-Israel to some extent as I think their actions in palestine have been atrocious. That doesn't make me anti-semetic. I am anti-american to a certain extent due to the foreign policy of George Bush and his cronies. That doesn't mean I hate all Americans. I simply have a major problem with iraq/Afganistan etc. I do not judge the whole by certain elements. (unlike yourself with the GAA)
On the issue of palestinian "terrorists", you have to remember that terrorism is a symptom of a sick society, not a cause of it.

Arafat's uncle, the notorious nazi war criminal, Haj Amin el Husseini who was also known as the Mufti of Jerusalem set up SS divisions among the Moslems of Bosnia which slaughtered many Jews. So with republican support for the PLO, statues to nazi collaborators, the murder of a prominent member of the Jewish community, Leonard Kaitcer, who in February 1980 was abducted from his home in south Belfast and later found shot in west Belfast etc is it any wonder why republicans are accused of being anti-Jewish.

No idea why the first part of this is in any way relevent. Are you trying to link Arafats uncle to anti-semitism in an attempt to prove that the Irepublicans are anti-semetic?? Bit tenuous that one even by your standards.
On the second point, Was he shot because he was Jewish? Where have republicans been accused of being anti-jewish?

Then there was Charles E. Couglin an Irish (born in Canada) catholic priest , who was a dedicated Nazi who hated the Jews,

So some random Irish priest(where do you find these people) means that repulicans are anti-jewish. Do you tink that Oswald Moseley who was notoiously anti-jewish and british means that this is a slur on all British people. Somehow I doubt it, because you have no consistency in your arguments.

On 2 May 1945, Eamon de Valera called on Eduard Hempel, German Minister to Ireland, to express his condolences on the death of Adolf Hitler. The visit created a storm of hostile coverage in the American and British press. While De Valera's protested that his action was consistent with protocol requirements he found himself in the unsavoury company of Franco and Salazar who also expressed condolences. Doesn't sound to good now does it???

Dev followed protocol. This was misguided, not anti-semetic. I dont think any irish people will disagree that offering condolences was a stupid and wrong thing to do.

Sean Russell offered his services and those of the IRA to Germany is a matter of fact. Even in 1940 the ugly face of Nazi ideology would have been clear to even the most naïve. Events such as Kristallnacht or the invasions of Poland, Norway, the low countries and France hardly went unreported in Ireland. The PRO-German tone of IRA publications during WWII is also a matter of record.

The invasion of France, poland, kristallnacht etc etc hadn't gone unreported in America either in 1940. Do you feel they were naive in not entering the war in the face of all this "evidence" about the Nazis. No, the fact of the matter is that while the Allies knew about concentration camps as early as 1942, this did not become public knowledge until late 1944.

Russell collaborated with one of the most disgustingregimes of the 20th century and to have a statue of him to commemorate is disgusting. What if Germany had a statue of Hitler to commemorate their war dead??

i have already provided you with a link about Russell. Have you read it??

In July 1940 for example, the IRA made a statement which made it clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they would land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom
Also in 1940 Sinn Féin leader J.J. O’Kelly was praising Hitler for freeing Germany from the ‘heel’ of the ‘Jewish white slave traffic’.

Of course they were going to say this. The Germans had publically stated it.(i think it was Himmler but would have to look that up) In a time of war, any help however small is cultivated. The Germans cultivated it and the IRA responded. Have you forgotten that Churchill offered the North to Dev in return for the ports?? He made the same offer as the Germans,(ie reunite Ireland) but why is that not on your radar??

Absolutely disguting to say the least and to think Adam's went to visit a German concentration camp. Perhaps he should have apologised for honouring a man who collaborated with this brutal regime that killed millions.

the German football team played Israel in a European Chamionship Qualifier. They attended a service at a holocaust memorial before the match. Now, I am sue you agree that the Germans were more culpable in the holocaust that the Irish(you do agee with that WASP?). Do you feel disgusted with the German team for doing this?? I'm sure you dont because consistency is a problem with you.

[Wasp]

Lochy all the points I have posted don't make good reading and it adds to the points made about Russel. Your last point about the German football team I do not understand or rather I cannot follow it.

On the GAA I hope you noted I referred mainly to the GAA in the north, the names of many clubs and fields etc, they are not just certain incidents that you try to brush aside. So I don't see your problem with my opinions on the GAA, it is not as though I exagerated any of the facts I posted. I don't see what my opinions of the GAA have got to do with Russel??

Anyway back to the thread, you ask me about Churchill not being on my radar etc. I thought this thread was about a nazi collaborator, why not mention Churchill yourself and state facts about him instead of accusing me of not having him in my radar to bring him into the debate.

On Israel I would lean more towards the Israelis with my sympathy and support, but at the sametime I have a great deal of sympathy for the Palistinian people who have suffered at the hands of all sides. I did not however say Israel was completley right.

You are answering my post with questions. Can you not just answer the facts I have posted instead of trying to squirm off the topic.

PS the Jewish Mayor of Dublin proves what? Perhaps it could be seen as a token gesture so people like yourself when questioned on facts like I have posted can claim, but we had a Jewish Mayor so what you are saying is false. I have posted facts, if you disagree point them out, make your point, bring other countries and leaders into the debate but try if you can to answer my posts and not accuse me of leaving people out of my radar. Because you think of someone doesn't mean I have already thought of the same person, in which you assume I did but leave them out.

Most countries have a blot on their record to do with Jews, of course there are, did I say different?? It was if you did read my post the director of the worlds biggest Jewish human rights organisation who said it was a blot on the history of Ireland. IMO this blot is still supported by those who want Russel's statue and to commemorate the nazi collaborator. If you have a problem with these facts I have pointed out then take them up with the Jewish community themselves and explain Russel's statue that they find so offensive and explain the commemorations.

J.Adair apparantly is doing some charity work in Africa (if memory serves) supported by neo-nazis in Germany. Let's say for the sake of arguement Adair continues this charity work at home and abroad, I wander if in years to come Belfast had a statue of Adair honouring all his chartiable work would Catholics mind. Considering what he done to Catholics in N.Ireland in particular. Maybe he is a bad example but I hope you see the point I am making.

[Jim]

Jim you are entitled to think what you want but many people think different. Part of my post stated 'Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at the centre, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, told The Times: “It’s a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light.” '

Republicans are accused of modern anti-Semitism. Being anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian Arab terror attacks on Israel. Did republicans train at Arab terrorist training camps??

Oh so because it comes from a Jewish human rights organisation it must be true? Ask that organisation what human rights israel time and time again abuses when it comes to Palestine and watch them blush. Republicans generally are anti-Israel, ant-Zionist and pro Palestinian. Know why? Dislike for zionism and the state of israel does not and never can equal a dislike for jews. I dont agree with zionism full stop, my opinion on the state of israel is that it has a right to exist in this modern world, but what israel do to their closest neighbours is unbelievable at times, and considering loyalists fly a star of david, should I take for granted loyalists condone the murder of children, and civilians being used as human shields by the IDF? No, I shouldnt, but you are doing the same with republicans by taking for granted we are anti-semites, which we are not.

Did republicans support the terror campaign of Arafat´s PLO to wipe out the Jewish state?

The PLO at one point where the richest paramilitary organisation on this earth, working through the millions when it came to cash, it made sense to take what you can for republicans. Again you are assuming wasp, dont assume, we can all be good at that. I can assume loyalists (and thus unionism) are white supremists since they had links to combat 18, the national front, have sympathy from the british national party, and etc, but I dont.

Infact, its the first I've heard that republicans are considered anti-Jewish, where did you hear that? I've heard they are anti-orange, I've heard they are anti-british, but not anti-jewish. I doubt most republicans even give a nuts.

You keep assuming and its blowing up in your face.

Like I said, name a country with an empire or been part of an empire that hasnt persecuted. France persecuted Algerians, the British persecuted half of their fucking empire, the Japanese persecuted (argueable still do some wuold say) the Anyu, Russia has a very violent history with most of its territory namely Chechnya, North korea actively persecute protestant koreans because its seen as americanisation. I could go on and name country after country.

On 2 May 1945, Eamon de Valera called on Eduard Hempel, German Minister to Ireland, to express his condolences on the death of Adolf Hitler. The visit created a storm of hostile coverage in the American and British press. While De Valera's protested that his action was consistent with protocol requirements he found himself in the unsavoury company of Franco and Salazar who also expressed condolences. Doesn't sound to good now does it???/quote]
Why shouldn't he offer condolenses? Ireland was not at war with Germany even though they helped the allies quite a few times under the table contrary to unionist belief.

[Blue Angel]

The problem is WASP that the Lord Mayor of Dublin who was Jewish was also an extremely prominent IRA member and also responsible for smuggling much of the weaponry to the nascent Israeli Defence Forces which makes matter a touch more complicated and ambigous would you not say?

As an aside Zionism is not analogous to Jewish, it is like mixing up the words republican and Irish/Catholic or loyalist and British/Protestant. By no means all Jews embrace Zionism or ever have done so and originally it was regarded as something of a crackpot philosophy by most Jewish organisations. Even today there are strands of though for and against it in the Jewish community.

Also, I must say I personally take offence to the slagging directed at those who fought in the Easter Rising earlier in this thread which seemed to be introduced from nowhere in what seems a poorly thought out attempt to show how the Irish commerate terrorists (which seems a major theme of this thread).

As to world war 2, the point some people still cannot seem to get is that Ireland was a sovreign state and entitled to remain neutral if it so wished. It had no duty to fight on Britain's side and realistically to expect that to occur considering that only 20 years before Britain had been throwing it's weight around the place would be slightly naive I think. Btw the bit about Dev and his (idiotic) offer of condolences is often dragged out, less mentioned is the fact that the man was decalred one of the 'righteous among the nations' by the israeli parliament when he visited there. I'm no big lover of Dev's but whatever else he was i don't view him as an anti-semite. If you want to pick a better target who really was try Arthur Griffith perhaps.

[Wasp]

Blueangel my post was not to offend you or asnyone else. The facts are there on Russel no matter what else he done or said. It seems that everyone wants to point out the whataboutthem instead of answering the points of the post first. It seems to me that it is ok for republicans to critisize the British, the RUC, Unionism etc etc, but when something is said towards Ireland you all seem to be very sensitive, nor do republicans like a taste of what they dish out.

I pointed out facts concerning the GAA in N.Ireland and I stated the sectarianism aspect of it, this was dismissed because of a few Prods who play, so according to this it cannot be called sectarian. Yet republicans call the RUC a sectarian police force, BUT Catholics served in the RUC so going by republican line of thought the RUC cannot be called sectarian.

Republican or whoever else can celebrate whatever they want. But when people disagree with their point of view or consider parts of what they celebrate or take part in as a disgrace or sectarian don't try and dictate how things should be debated. Especially when republicans condemn anything British, the British security forces, Unionism, the OO etc etc, because what you accuse them of you are guilty of yourselves. The OO gets a real slating from rpublicans and that's fair enough, but when I posted to do with the sectarian GAA I was told that yous don't need to attack our culture to celebrate your own. If this is true then why attack the OO, but use a different rule when anything is sadi to do with anything about the culture you celebrate.

I have been accused of double standards and inconsistency, if people think that then fair enough. But I think republicans should look at their double standards and inconsistency before they point the finger at anyone. Perhaps you don't like anything bad said about republicanism which may shed a bad light on it. Funny the same thoughts do not apply to when you are condemning Unionists or the british. Maybe you should all take a good look at your own doorstep before looking at anyone elses.

You want Unionist posters to agree with you on things, which I have done, but when it comes to the other way around not one of you could condemn a statue of a nazi collaborator (apart from the republic), you condemn the OO and support sinn fein in having parades re routed but don't apply this when it concerns nationalist parades. In fact any re routing of a nationalist parade is viewed as acalculated insult to unionists. You don't want Unionists walking anywhere near a nationalist area, yet are all on for nationalists walking through a Unionist area.

If you disagree with my posts then fine, if you accuse me of whatever then fine, but I will not be changing what I feel to be true because republicans cannot take critisizim.

If you cannot take it then don't dish it out.

[Wasp]

PS Blueangel when I used the word 'you' it was meaning republicans just incase you though I was singling you out.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl you should start a thread on the UVF as I would be interested in reading it.

The main point of bringing up the UVF is to highlight a point of view. I try and see things from the middle, and try and keep out of the 'black and white' territory as much as possible. The UVF are much lauded in NI as a force which helped preserve Ni's Britishness, yet, they were willing to fight the crowns forces if they had to, and had help from the then British enemy, the kaiser. Absolutely the same circumstances as Sean Russell. He didn't go to Germany because he was pro-fascist, he went there looking for arms. He also went to the Russians looking for arms, so does that make him pro-communist too? By your own basic 'black and white' logic, it does, and so causes a conundrum, since it's impossible to be pro-fascist and pro-communist.

If I have hit a sore point or raw nerve with you or anyone else because I posted about Dublin being the only country in Europe to have a statue dedicated to a nazi collaborator then what can I do.

You've hit no sore point, as you have a plainly hypocritical style which puts a lot of what you say into 'a pinch of salt' territory. If you weren't hypocritical, then people might take what you say a bit more seriously.

Perhaps people in the republic which is alledgedly a country that is moving forward, breaking its link with the Catholic church, welcome communities from all walks of life etc, thne they should demand that no such statues or commemorations are made of such vermin. One only has to look at what the nazis done to see why the Jewish community among others are so upset. How can any country claim to be modern and inclusive when they have statues of nazi collaborators.

He is being commemorated for being a republican, not for nazism. What's this allegedly BS? Here's some FACTS, no allegations, ill informed biased opinions or heresay. The ROI has been the top of many 'best place in the world to live' lists for the last few years, news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4020523.stm
while the only list NI has topped recently, was that of 'most bigoted country in the western world'
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article2245817.ece

So getting a sermon from an NI resident on the proper etiquette that a country should have is quite hilarious. What's that Bible quote about splinters and planks in the awul eyes?

You talk about this statue as if it is held in high regard in this country, instead of being the headless lump of rock it is on the fringe of a drabby park. A few Shinners and locals have a commemoration. So what? The Shinners would commemorate a carrot if it choked a high level RUC man in the 60's (sorry Setanta!) It doesn't even come close to NI and Scottish rangers supporters in Israel, giving the old nazi salute to the locals. And that 'red hand salute' excuse doesn't wash with me. No-one is THAT stupid!!
More Irish from the south took part in WW2 than northeners, and we won more decorations, as in ALL decorations for this island, either side of the border, so I think we did our bit, and shouldn't have to put up with these constant poor digging from some Unionists who wet their knickers when trying to paint the ROI as some kind of neo-fascist post modern paradise. It's been never since I seen any fascist groups at a St. Patricks day parade, but I do remember seeing some combat 18 types on TV at some OO parades in the past.
I remember reading about a campaign in Loyalist areas where they were trying to stop attacks on Polish immigrants by putting up posters reminding the locals of their brave Polish WW2 allies (whom they subsequently hung out to dry and tossed to the rabid Soviet Empire). No such campaigns down here, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT NEEDED. So where's your allegedly now? People don't look back to WW2 to judge a country. They look to it's people NOW.

Isn't it funny though that at Easer time most Christian countries celebrate Christ's ressurection, but rather than celebrate the proof of eternal life, some in Ireland would rather commemorate death by what many see as death by terrorism.

From what I have read most of those killed were innocent civillians so it's not much to celebrate. If England does the same then let me know and I will email Westminster about that too. Isn't it about time we all put a stop to all this nonsense where we allow our countries and some of its people to honour nazi collaborators and honour men whom many branded as terrorists. I am all for it, what about the rest of you???

Are you deliberately trying to antagonize people on this forum? If the Rising took place at Christmas, it would be commemorated then, so I don't see what the time of year has to do about it. The reason why it is commemorated is because this was the beginning of our fight for freedom against the tyranny of Empire. Now, being a modern, successful and productive member of the international community, we like to look back on how we got here and where we came from. It was a perfect circle that 91 years after the rising, that by the rubble of that time and place in Hill 16, the English got their come-uppence in a sporting game of rugby played with no malice or hate.

History is written by the victors WASP, so you have to ask yourself, do you approve of how modern history has been portrayed, and how modern history in the making is being portrayed?

[earl]

wasp said:

Jim you are entitled to think what you want but many people think different. Part of my post stated 'Shimon Samuels, director for international affairs at the centre, the world’s largest Jewish human rights organisation, told The Times: “It’s a blot on the history of Ireland, but blots have to see the public light.” '

Indeed we do, and this thread is showing exactly what the circumstances are surrounding the statue.

Republicans are accused of modern Antisemitism. Being anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro Palestinian Arab terror attacks on Israel. Did republicans train at Arab terrorist training camps??

Accused is the operative word, and many right wing Israelis count any Palestinian sympathy as anti-Israeli, or anti-semitic, regardless of what you actually think about Israel. You could be for a two state solution, and some would call you anti-Israeli, as if they are diametrically two opposite points of view. The PIRA also trained in the French Foreign legion, so what does that tell your incredible sense of deduction and reasoning WASP?

Did republicans support the terror campaign of Arafat´s PLO to wipe out the Jewish state?

I think you'll find that the PIRA would have been more sypathetic towards the Palestinians goal towards independence rather than any for anti-semitic reasons. Common sense would help you figure that out.

Arafat's uncle, the notorious nazi war criminal, Haj Amin el Husseini who was also known as the Mufti of Jerusalem set up SS divisions among the Moslems of Bosnia which slaughtered many Jews.

What??? So??? What you are basically saying here is that some Republicans have shared sympathies with a man whose dead relative worked for the Nazis. I was in Munich 2 years back and talked to many Germans, some of whom could have dead relatives who may have been Nazis or Nazi sympathizers. Does that make me a Nazi sympathizer under your 'by proxy' logic?

So with republican support for the PLO, statues to nazi collaborators, the murder of a prominent member of the Jewish community, Leonard Kaitcer, who in February 1980 was abducted from his home in south Belfast and later found shot in west Belfast etc is it any wonder why republicans are accused of being anti-Jewish.

Statues of nazi collaborators. You've used the plural, so kindly fill us in as to who the other statues are of, unless you are exaggerating, as usual, without the full knowledge of the facts, as usual, and so we should take this with a massive pinch of salt, as we usually do.
One of the 'Terrorists' who fought in the 1916 rising was jewish (can't think of his name at the mo), So if it takes the murder of one Jew to blackball the whole of Ireland, then the heroics of another Jew for Irelands cause (and later for Israels cause against the same enemy) redeems us under your own twisted logic.

Then there was Charles E. Couglin an Irish (born in Canada) catholic priest , who was a dedicated Nazi who hated the Jews,

More proof WASP, a Canadian Priest who was a Nazi. Definitive proof that Ireland is pro Nazi if I ever seen it. By your own logic, William Joyce (Lord Haw Haw), A Unionist from Galway who used to help the Black and tans in the war for independence is proof that Unionism is sympathetic to fascism.

On 2 May 1945, Eamon de Valera called on Eduard Hempel, German Minister to Ireland, to express his condolences on the death of Adolf Hitler. The visit created a storm of hostile coverage in the American and British press. While De Valera's protested that his action was consistent with protocol requirements he found himself in the unsavoury company of Franco and Salazar who also expressed condolences. Doesn't sound to good now does it???

Put it into perspective man! You have no balance whatsoever! It is on record that the entire Irish government was against the idea, yet Dev being Dev went his own way and did it anyway. And if Dev is such an antisemitic, then how come he has a forest in Israel named after him after the Jews of Ireland had a wip around. Are there any forests in Israel named after any Unionist leaders? Dear, dear WASP. You really should start reading into your history before you start shooting your mouth off in these debates. I grow so tired of constantly correcting you all the time.

Sean Russell offered his services and those of the IRA to Germany is a matter of fact. Even in 1940 the ugly face of Nazi ideology would have been clear to even the most naïve. Events such as Kristallnacht or the invasions of Poland, Norway, the low countries and France hardly went unreported in Ireland. The PRO-German tone of IRA publications during WWII is also a matter of record.

Russell collaborated with one of the most disgustingregimes of the 20th century and to have a statue of him to commemorate is disgusting. What if Germany had a statue of Hitler to commemorate their war dead??

In July 1940 for example, the IRA made a statement which made it clear that if ‘German forces should land in Ireland, they would land . . . as friends and liberators of the Irish people’. The public was assured that Germany desired neither ‘territory nor . . . economic penetration’ in Ireland but only that it should play its part in the ‘reconstruction’ of a ‘free and progressive Europe’. The Third Reich was also praised as the ‘energising force’ of European politics and the ‘guardian’ of national freedom
Also in 1940 Sinn Féin leader J.J. O’Kelly was praising Hitler for freeing Germany from the ‘heel’ of the ‘Jewish white slave traffic’.

Absolutely disguting to say the least and to think Adam's went to visit a German concentration camp. Perhaps he should have apologised for honouring a man who collaborated with this brutal regime that killed millions.

WASP, this all above here is nothing more than a rant. You make out the IRA to be the voice of Ireland above, as if anything a bunch of deluded Irish terrorists could be reflected on the entire population. DeValera, stated at the time that if anyone tried to invade Ireland, and at the time it could have been the British, U.S. or Germans, that they would be fought as aggressors. Can't really put it any other way WASP. Why should Gerry Adams apologise for something someone else said in the 40's before the news of the concentration camps broke out? Are you going to apologise for the treatment of Catholics in NI in the 60's? No? Well, same principle applies to Gerry. Wind yer neck in for Gods sake WASP. Your posts are actually becoming nonsensical and more sectarian. You're probably spending too much time with your pals over in Calton. They're not the best people in the world to be getting your history lessons from.

[Wasp]

Earl Earl my old buddy, obviously I have hit a raw nerve with you. I think your rant proves this. I will reply to the parts of your post that are worth a reply, because I am crap at the quote thing I will highlight my response.

EARL wrote 'You've hit no sore point, as you have a plainly hypocritical style which puts a lot of what you say into 'a pinch of salt' territory. If you weren't hypocritical, then people might take what you say a bit more seriously.'

I think your post proves you are taking me with more than a pinch of salt and I think it proves I hit a sore point.

EARL WROTE 'He is being commemorated for being a republican, not for nazism.'

I already have said it doesn't matter what he done or said, fact is he was still a nazi collaborator. I even used Adair as an example if he was honoured for charity work etc.

EARL WROTE 'So getting a sermon from an NI resident on the proper etiquette that a country should have is quite hilarious.'

So people from N.Ireland have no right to comment on a proper etiquette that a country should have. So now you are insulting the people of N.Ireland and tarring them all with the same brush, we are not all terrorists you know. Funny thing is you have plenty to say on things concerniong N.Ireland, yet according to you it's quite hilarious for someone for N.Ireland to say anything about the R.O.I. Double standards once again.

EARL WROTE 'You talk about this statue as if it is held in high regard in this country, instead of being the headless lump of rock it is on the fringe of a drabby park. A few Shinners and locals have a commemoration. So what?'

Fair enough point, but the fact remains that people are commemorating a nazi collaborator. If it means so little to yourself, why can't you condemn it or is that asking too much.

EARL WROTE 'Scottish rangers supporters in Israel, giving the old nazi salute to the locals. And that 'red hand salute' excuse doesn't wash with me. No-one is THAT stupid!!'

I don't exactly follow Rangers, and I have asked about this red hand salute. TBH it didn't wash with me either.

EARL WROTE 'More Irish from the south took part in WW2 than northeners, and we won more decorations, as in ALL decorations for this island, either side of the border, so I think we did our bit, and shouldn't have to put up with these constant poor digging from some Unionists who wet their knickers when trying to paint the ROI as some kind of neo-fascist post modern paradise. It's been never since I seen any fascist groups at a St. Patricks day parade, but I do remember seeing some combat 18 types on TV at some OO parades in the past.'

You say you shouldn't have to put up with the constant poor digging from some Unionists. Again take a good look at what some republicans including yourself say about Unionism in N.Ireland. You maybe never seen fascist groups at a St Patricks day parade but I am sure you saw people who supported the carnage inflicted in N.Ireland. People who glorify terrorists who acted just like facists and supported the killing and maiming of thousands.

EARL WROTE 'People don't look back to WW2 to judge a country. They look to it's people NOW'

Well you should try telling that to republicans because they like to go back much further in history as well as going back 40 years. Or is 40 years ok to go back on??? If people are commemorating a nazi collaborator now, then people will judge them on that. I think you contradicted yourself there.

EARL WROTE 'The PIRA also trained in the French Foreign legion, so what does that tell your incredible sense of deduction and reasoning WASP? '

Some were also in the British army and trained with them.

EARL WROTE 'I was in Munich 2 years back and talked to many Germans, some of whom could have dead relatives who may have been Nazis or Nazi sympathizers. Does that make me a Nazi sympathizer under your 'by proxy' logic? '

Now you are being childish. You say some republicans share sympathy with Arafat etc, I was saying the ira support the PLO.

EARL WROTE 'Statues of nazi collaborators. You've used the plural'

I apologise, just bad English.

EARL WROTE 'So if it takes the murder of one Jew to blackball the whole of Ireland, then the heroics of another Jew for Irelands cause (and later for Israels cause against the same enemy) redeems us under your own twisted logic.'

Usual republican ploy to twist what I said, when did I say the murder of one Jew blackballs the whole of Ireland. This man's murder was among my points to do with what republicans are accused of, it was not a single point to do wth the whole of Ireland.Either you are very touchy or you purposely are trying to change what I said. I suppose when we get flustered we can miss vital points and then draw our own conclusions as in what the person said instead of what they actually said.

EARL WROTE 'More proof WASP, a Canadian Priest who was a Nazi. Definitive proof that Ireland is pro Nazi if I ever seen it....'

You see Earl this was just another point which adds to uneasy reading for republicans especially when added with other points. I did not say the priest proved all this.

EARL WROTE 'Put it into perspective man! You have no balance whatsoever! It is on record that the entire Irish government was against the idea, yet Dev being Dev went his own way and did it anyway. And if Dev is such an antisemitic, then how come he has a forest in Israel named after him after the Jews of Ireland had a wip around. Are there any forests in Israel named after any Unionist leaders? Dear, dear WASP. You really should start reading into your history before you start shooting your mouth off in these debates. I grow so tired of constantly correcting you all the time.'

The fact remains he did do it and it was for one of the cruelest men in the last century, if not the cruelest. I don't know about forests named after Unionist leaders but I do know many people in Israel have an affection with Unionists here and vice versa.

EARL WROTE 'Why should Gerry Adams apologise for something someone else said in the 40's before the news of the concentration camps broke out? Are you going to apologise for the treatment of Catholics in NI in the 60's? No? Well, same principle applies to Gerry. Wind yer neck in for Gods sake WASP. Your posts are actually becoming nonsensical and more sectarian. You're probably spending too much time with your pals over in Calton. They're not the best people in the world to be getting your history lessons from. '

Now this did make me laugh, once again you have got your facts wrong about what I said and you have twisted what I said around. I SAID 'Absolutely disguting to say the least and to think Adam's went to visit a German concentration camp. Perhaps he should have apologised for honouring a man who collaborated with this brutal regime that killed millions.' DO YOU SEE THE PART WHERE I SAID PERHAPS HE SHOULD HAVE APOLOGISED FOR "HONOURING" A MAN WHO COLLABORATED?

I did not say Adam's should apologise for something someone else said in the 40's, even though you quoted me yourself FFS, you still tried to twist around what I said. Maybe that was so you could have your dig at Unionists by asking me should I apologise for the treatment of Catholics in the 60's. I would understand your point if I was honouring someone who done such things and then I went to Ireland for a vist where terrible things happened by the very people the person I am honouring collaborated with.

You have your views, and plenty share those views on Russel, I have my views on him and it's not just Unionists who share these views. You should learn that if you can critisize people then you should be able to take critisizim rather than twist things around and go off on one.

[Jim]

The Shinners would commemorate a carrot if it choked a high level RUC man in the 60's (sorry Setanta!)

That gave me a good laugh, its absolutely true