Time for All Ireland Soccer?

[Harry]

Earl don't try and make out that Jim was only on about football. From the outset Jim accused me and others of rejecting the idea of an all ireland football team on the basis of politics.

If wanting to support the football team of my country, seeing players from my county being in that team makes me political then so be it. I've not once mentioned flags, anthems or any of the sort. You Jim have only banged on about all this and nothing but this. You have the problems and i'm sorry that the flag and anthem that i see as mine don't suit you and i fully accept the issues surrounding them.

Jim you are in a very strange bracket. You don't see NI or ROI as your team. I was hoping that you would find comfort with the ROI team as it would represent you more but that doesn't seem to be the case. I have no problem with nationalists from NI supporting the Republic. I have come to realise that while its disappointing they choose ROI i recognise the reasons why.

If attracting more Nationalists into supporting NI means that we have to clear away any sign of Britishness then in all fairness they can go jump. I am British and Proud. No more pathetic pandering to Nationalists. No more erosion of our Britishness to help with your hatred. You want to support Ireland then trot off to Dublin.

[Harry]

By the way, this is why i wanted to have the forum like this. Good honest feelings being shared and no holds barred. No tip toeing around. Jim regardless of what is said here your a good bloke and i like you Your just wrong ;D ;D

[Jim]

What the fuck mate?

Firstly, I only started banging on about flags later on in the topic, thats very clear if you read through the topic.

Secondly, I have problems with the "Ulster Banner", the one I posted, not the Union Jack. I couldn't give a shite about the Union Jack. I'm not the only one that has the problem with the particular flag.

You're post is fucking typical mate, "its ours and if you dont like it fuck off", if we all got on like that then we'd be in a lot more shite than sitting here arguing about football. I could be a typical republican and say "if you want to be British fuck off to London", but I don't and I won't, I'm above that and its highly ignorant.

I have not once said anything about denying you your Britishness, and untill you realise that there are half of us in this damn state that arent out and out British the problem will always be there. This isnt about the border, the south, england or any other part of Britain, this is about Northern Ireland those that live in it. You see the reasons why Northerners support the ROI and you see it as disappointing yet you don't want to do anything about it, do you? If it means you can keep your St Georges cross with a crown ontop. You're talking about it as if I want to turn it into a second Republic team with a tricolour and republican song for an anthem, and its not the case.

We arent clearing Britishness, I've never ever once mentioned that, so you can go jump, if NI wants to fill seats then they may attract more people and its not going to happen.

Are the English and the Scottish less British because they have their own flag? Thats the argument you are putting forward in regards with Northern Ireland. I'm clearly not the one with the hatred here but I never expect you to see that. If wanting an inclusive flag and anthem for everyone that goes to NI matches, who are from NI, then its not me that has the hatred, its your contempt for anything other than your own.

[Harry]

Jim what exactly would you have to give or sacrifice to make the NI team 'inclusive to all'. Nothing. You don't have anything to give. All you have are demands. Demands that dilute what i see as my culture, flag and anthems.

Everything you seek you can have by following the ROI. No GSTQ, No Ulster Flags, No Britishness.

Anyway this isn't about making NI football team more inclusive, it was about joining the 2 teams which you will find 99% of my community would be against.

I'm now being political. My arguement is now political. I can see that and recognise it, you should try the same Jim.

[Bilk]

jim said:

There is no team that represents my country, you don't understand that at all. Furthermore, the NI team doesnt want to represent me, you don't want it to represent me, god forbid having a flag and an anthem that would get "those wankers from the falls" wearing ROI tops to finally pay attention to NI knowing that they arent staring at Ulster Banners and listening to someone sing about saving a Queen they feel nothing about.

You really don't fucking get it, I'm genuinely surprised at you Blik I thought of all unionists on this board you would be one to understand that, but you just don't get it.

Whats this "he can't even support the team from his country because the flag of my country offends him?" That doesnt even make sense, if it was my country why is it your flag? Does that use of wording not even suggest that the flag has nothing to do with me? So why isnt that changed for the better? I'd be willing to change the tricolour if it was used by here if it was needed.

In my eyes you are the secterian one, you are the bigot, and while entitled to your opinion, you have as much understanding of nationalists and republicans as you do of martians. You don't want to know, either. So I'm not the bigot here.

You are absolutely right on that subject, I am glad we have found something to agree on today. I don't want to hear bleating nationalists/republicans who like little children cannot settle for three quarters of the cake but want it all, and want everone else to have nothing. I hear 5 year olds talk like that everyday. Now that is a lesson on inclusiveness if ever I heard one. As for the flag you have already told me it is not your flag, now you are getting all offended because I accept that and don't call it the flag of your country, but mine. I tire of this argument that is supposed to be about football, but has turned into something totally different. A flag is a piece of cloth with designs on it, it is nothing else. An anthem is a song, nothing else, but you will allow them to stop you supporting a football team, I think you have problems and issues that go way beyond anything I will ever understand.

[Jim]

Oh please, dont try to put me down to a 5 year old I have a very legitimate argument and grieviance and it may just be above your grasp it seems. If flags and anthems are that simple to you then fair enough then I don't see why you oppose change since it doesnt mean anything, it clearly does mean something to you, otherwise. I've said nothing about wanting everything so I don't know where you pulled that pile of shite from. Did you even read my post?

I have said the flag is not mine therefore should be changed to some acceptable to everyone. your "he can't even support the team from his country because the flag of my country offends him" was wrong for 2 reasons, you say its my country (which would automatically mean I am represented in the institutions of that country, which I am, and also in the flags and anthems of that country, which I am not), then you proceed to make it clear that its your flag, making it even clearer that I'm not, and my community is not meant to be part of any flag or anthem or symbollic representation of the state.

Any issues I have are a reflection of the state we live in, they are not just my grieviances.

You can consider a flag being just a piece of cloth all you want. According to the good friday agreement:

All participants acknowledge the sensitivity of the use of symbols and emblems for public purposes, and the need in particular in creating the new institutions to ensure that such symbols and emblems are used in a manner which promotes mutual respect rather than division.

The Ulster Banner is not a flag of mutual respect.

[Jim]

harry said:

Jim what exactly would you have to give or sacrifice to make the NI team 'inclusive to all'. Nothing. You don't have anything to give. All you have are demands. Demands that dilute what i see as my culture, flag and anthems.

Everything you seek you can have by following the ROI. No GSTQ, No Ulster Flags, No Britishness.

Anyway this isn't about making NI football team more inclusive, it was about joining the 2 teams which you will find 99% of my community would be against.

I'm now being political. My arguement is now political. I can see that and recognise it, you should try the same Jim.

Sacraficing major support for the Republic team, support for northern players to stay with the IFA and not be "poached" by the FAI, afterall it seemed to be a big enough deal for the IFA to go yapping to FIFA about it. All I have are demands because I don't have a chance to give anything yet with flags or anthems, how could I? They arent representative of my community. If your Britishness is based simply on a flag and/or an anthem that even other UK constituent countries don't use (they have their own, remember) then what does that say for your Britishness? I'm not proposing using a Tricolour, you know that, any flag will still represent a border, NI as a country, not as an Irish state.

I could go very easily and support the ROI, a lot of people do after all, but wheres the fun in that? Even I have more interested in supporting someone from Belfast instead of Cork, thats the reality of the border, you are just taking for granted that I am out to get everything British and I'm clearly not, all I've asked for is a flag that also represents me (as in the nationalist community, not just myself) and an anthem that also represents me. If the Scottish can do it without diluting their Britishness why can't we? If you can't handle the other half of the population not wanting to stand up to god save the queen then we don't have much of a future do we?

The argument has moved from the all Ireland team, it has moved onto the NI team and inclusiveness, why is that? Because it would actually dampen a lot of support for an all Ireland team, so ironically inclusiveness is in your benefit too unless you want to keep NI your wee orange team and we will keep going on for an all Ireland team which as you say, 99% of your community would be against. Whats the point in that?

I havent said my posts arent political, I made it clear my posts have shifted from football to politics, there wasnt much talk about actual football in the first place to keep it going, I'm not solely to blame for that.

[earl]

wasp said:

Earl would you class a family of devout sdlp voters nationalist? I certainly do and yet they are big N.I supporters.

That's great, but my quote was more political based. You can consider your home to be Ireland and still support the NI football team if you are so inclined. There's no contradiction there, once you're okay with the issues we're discussing here. I support NI as well as the ROI as I like to see lads from this island do well.

For those who don't class N.I as their country and consider Ireland to be their country then they are in luck because the R.O.I has a football team that they can support.

Exactly, and that's what most of them do. Unfortunately, according to Bilk, they are bigots for doing this. I'm arguing the point you've just made.

The award given to N.I supporters etc just proves how inclusive N.I football and its supporters are, Catholic players, Catholic captains and Catholic supporters.

And fair play to them. If the flag and anthem were changed, they'd probably have even more Catholic supporters, as everything else seems to be right on the money. Again, I'm not suggesting they should, that's for the IFA to decide and I respect their decision.

Now I know there are those who cannot bring themselves to support N.I unless they meet there demands and wishes, but they can always support the country that they claim to be part of and belong to and that is the republics team. Arguement settled with all sides having a choice of who to support.

And no-one labelled a bigot. In full agreement WASPy.

That is why they can freely support the republic if they can't bring themselves to support N.I. Also Earl you are forgetting that there is only ONE international rugby team on this island but there are TWO international football teams. To try to compare rubgy with football is just crazy.

I'm not trying to compare them directly WASP, but I think some elements are similar, especially on the flags and anthems.

[Bilk]

Earl said

[/quote/] Exactly, and that's what most of them do. Unfortunately, according to Bilk, they are bigots for doing this. I'm arguing the point you've just made. [/quote/]

I did not say him supporting the RoI made him a bigot, I said the reasons he gave for not supporting N. Ireland made him one.

[Jim]

So wanting an inclusive flag makes me a bigot?

[Bilk]

jim said:

So wanting an inclusive flag makes me a bigot?

No! not being able to stand in a stadium and support a football team because of your hatred of a national anthem and a flag does.
If you said that about any other country than Northern Ireland you'd be called a racist. Perhaps racist might fit better, it's no nicer but perhaps it fits better. Since you think it's ok to be racist towards the Ulster Scots race, and their emblems and anthems.

[Jim]

I do not hate the national team.

I do not like that flag, as a citizen of NI I am entitled to see a flag that represents me, at matches where the national team is representing the country of my birth. The Ulster Banner does not represent my community in any way shape or form. How can I make that any fucking clearer?

Where the christ are you pulling this bollocks from? Are you honestly having a laugh? I'm not even going to dignify that idiotic "racist to ulster scots" statement with a reply.

[earl]

Sweet Jeebus Bilk, all he's ever said here is that the flags and anthems are not inclusive, and that they do not represent him. Where in blazes are you getting hate from? If you don't find the tri-colour inclusive, why should the same logic not apply to Jim?

[Bilk]

jim said:

I do not hate the national team.

I do not like that flag, as a citizen of NI I am entitled to see a flag that represents me, at matches where the national team is representing the country of my birth. The Ulster Banner does not represent my community in any way shape or form. How can I make that any fucking clearer?

Where the christ are you pulling this bollocks from? Are you honestly having a laugh? I'm not even going to dignify that idiotic "racist to ulster scots" statement with a reply.

I am not asking you to see it as a representation of you or your ilk. But if you can't be in the same football ground where the flag is and the national anthem is played then what does that make you. A normal perosn, I don't think so. but that's just my opinion. When I am going to a ground where I know the tricoulour is going to be on show, I don't feel any welling up of hatred about it, nor the national anthem. I just accept they don't represent me, and enjoy the game.

[Bilk]

earl said:

Sweet Jeebus Bilk, all he's ever said here is that the flags and anthems are not inclusive, and that they do not represent him. Where in blazes are you getting hate from? If you don't find the tri-colour inclusive, why should the same logic not apply to Jim?

I don't make it as a sick excuse for not supporting the Irish rugby team, which is where this all started. His excuse for not supporting Northern Ireland was because of his hatred for the flag and the national anthem.